What kind of seniority does it take to have good money & schedule at AC?

[JBI]

Want weekends off, holidays off, summer vacation, productive day turns, minimum monthly days. Here’s a ballpark, it varies depending on fleet and base.

NB FO - 8+ years of service
WB FO - 16+ years
NB CA - 18+ years
WB CA - 30+ years

This is the most important post in this thread.

In Canadian Aviation (we'll hold off comparing to the US for now), Air Canada is great in that it offers a lot of choice for pilots but it's a balancing of factors on what's most important to individual pilots:

-Seat: Capt vs. FO
-Base: YVR, YWG, YYZ, YUL
-Fleet: Widebody v. Narrowbody
-Schedule
-destinations
-money

Yes, right now AC has quite quick Narrowbody upgrades and it'll mean good money, but it's going to be at the sacrifice of almost everything else. You can even get on as Widebody FO way quicker than anywhere else in Canada, but schedule and pay will suffer.

With seniority however, you get some of the extremes that can work for people. Like the Doctor north of Toronto who was an AC pilot. He never upgraded, was the #1 A320 FO and booked the 9 days he was going to work each month doing single day Caribbeans down and back. Or the other fellow who was a Sim instructor, Aerocourse instructor, commuted and was the #1 767 RP in YVR (this was 10 years ago) so he could pick his 3 trips a month and schedule everything else around it.

Finally, depending on the fleet you're on, sometimes it's a choice between destinations and days-off.

So if you want it ALL, it's going to take a long time and, considering the thousands of relatively young pilots that have just been hired in the last 5 years, unless AC expands drastically those numbers will go up considerably.

[daedalusx]

Or the other fellow who was a Sim instructor, Aerocourse instructor, commuted and was the #1 767 RP in YVR (this was 10 years ago) so he could pick his 3 trips a month and schedule everything else around it.

Was that Christian ? He was awesome.

[JBI]

Or the other fellow who was a Sim instructor, Aerocourse instructor, commuted and was the #1 767 RP in YVR (this was 10 years ago) so he could pick his 3 trips a month and schedule everything else around it.

Was that Christian ? He was awesome.

It was! Ya, he was a great instructor!

[30westpirate]

Also trying to emulate the schedules at Sunwing/Flair/Transat and to an extent Westjet simply doesn’t work. The network doesn’t allow for it, between YOW, YUL, LGA, EWR, BOS, ORD, YQT, YQB probably close to a 100 flights daily all under 2 hours from YYZ.

The new duty regs also meant a hit to productive flying. Before you could legally do a LAX day turn, or a YYT, YMM red-eye.

[daedalusx]

Also trying to emulate the schedules at Sunwing/Flair/Transat and to an extent Westjet simply doesn’t work. The network doesn’t allow for it, between YOW, YUL, LGA, EWR, BOS, ORD, YQT, YQB probably close to a 100 flights daily all under 2 hours from YYZ.

The new duty regs also meant a hit to productive flying. Before you could legally do a LAX day turn, or a YYT, YMM red-eye.

That’s right. Even the worst schedule at WG is better than the top 10%NB schedule at AC simply due to the nature of the operation.

[co-joe]

Want weekends off, holidays off, summer vacation, productive day turns, minimum monthly days. Here’s a ballpark, it varies depending on fleet and base.

NB FO - 8+ years of service
WB FO - 16+ years
NB CA - 18+ years
WB CA - 30+ years

That's pretty eye opening if you think about it. And the fact that nobody here has disputed your numbers is also interesting.

I wonder how those estimates would stack up comparing the same criteria in the YYZ base vs YVR.

[altiplano]

I'm not sure about that NB FO 8 years. Maybe half that.

YYZ 10% NB FO is about 2-3 years... I see around 12 days and Christmas off last month in those blocks... I also see lots of 110 hour month, sim seat fill, draft hogs around that number. Really showing the company dissatisfaction with their deal like that.

NB CA, that's probably close if you want days right down. Maybe only 10-12 years depending on the fleet for blockholder Christmas off and to get most of what you want within reason. You pretty much just have to plan 14-16 as a block holder and after 10 years, if you bid well, you might see an extra day off here and there until you're 15-18 years and will see data down more consistently if that's your goal.

WB FO? Used to be 15 years just to hold bottom 777 FO... 10 years for bottom 767 FO.

Now? 1 year.

Junior 777 FO blockholders with Christmas off, probably about 2018 hires... 10-12 day schedules.

330 FO Junior blockholder with Christmas off, also around 2018, 13-15 days.

WB CAs... who knows when 777 and 787 guys got here... Won't matter if you base decisions on coming here for a position you won't hold for probably 20 years. It will be something different by then, different contact, different airplanes, different seniority bubble.

330, Junior CA us in YUL, maybe 10 years... Junior blockholder with Christmas off there is over 20 years, 15-16 days... pretty shitty flying on that fleet though.

Add a year or 2 for YVR positions at least. Usually you'll always be a couple years behind in YVR. Montreal is a bit all over. Junior on some fleets, senior on others. YWG - whatever, you're taking it to save your commute days anyway.

[MD11]

How is QofL looking for someone who joins AC now and hopes for a YUL base? How long is reserve and will commuting to base be a realistic career path as opposed to living in base for another airline?

[TheStig]

I'm not sure what you're asking in your last sentence. PIT classes draw seniority numbers and bid positions in that order with a few exceptions. The positions offered are based on vacancies on the bid and training course availability. Expect to see all narrow body FO spots and RP positions offered, generally about 80% in YYZ and 20% YUL.

The company normally conducts 6 bids a year, but a minimum of 4. If you can't pick up a YUL position in PIT and want to commute for as short of time as possible you should pick a type that has positions in YUL as base transfers on the same type occur within 2 months but retraining to a different position can take up to 8 months to start (and you're not YUL based until you complete your training).

[khedrei]

I'm not sure what you're asking in your last sentence. PIT classes draw seniority numbers and bid positions in that order with a few exceptions. The positions offered are based on vacancies on the bid and training course availability. Expect to see all narrow body FO spots and RP positions offered, generally about 80% in YYZ and 20% YUL.

The company normally conducts 6 bids a year, but a minimum of 4. If you can't pick up a YUL position in PIT and want to commute for as short of time as possible you should pick a type that has positions in YUL as base transfers on the same type occur within 2 months but retraining can take up to 8 months to start (and you're not YUL based until you complete your training).

If you get trained on the a plane at yyz and bid to the same type on a transfer to yul, why would you need to be retrained?

[cdnavater]

I'm not sure what you're asking in your last sentence. PIT classes draw seniority numbers and bid positions in that order with a few exceptions. The positions offered are based on vacancies on the bid and training course availability. Expect to see all narrow body FO spots and RP positions offered, generally about 80% in YYZ and 20% YUL.

The company normally conducts 6 bids a year, but a minimum of 4. If you can't pick up a YUL position in PIT and want to commute for as short of time as possible you should pick a type that has positions in YUL as base transfers on the same type occur within 2 months but retraining can take up to 8 months to start (and you're not YUL based until you complete your training).

If you get trained on the a plane at yyz and bid to the same type on a transfer to yul, why would you need to be retrained?

Because, if you read the sentence, if you get a type that is available in YUL, base transfers occur within 2 months, retraining would be required if you need to bid a different type that is in YUL and that takes up to 8 months, perhaps it’s only clear to people who are in the seniority/equipment bid system. I read it and fully understood what he was saying

[khedrei]

I'm not sure what you're asking in your last sentence. PIT classes draw seniority numbers and bid positions in that order with a few exceptions. The positions offered are based on vacancies on the bid and training course availability. Expect to see all narrow body FO spots and RP positions offered, generally about 80% in YYZ and 20% YUL.

The company normally conducts 6 bids a year, but a minimum of 4. If you can't pick up a YUL position in PIT and want to commute for as short of time as possible you should pick a type that has positions in YUL as base transfers on the same type occur within 2 months but retraining can take up to 8 months to start (and you're not YUL based until you complete your training).

If you get trained on the a plane at yyz and bid to the same type on a transfer to yul, why would you need to be retrained?

Because, if you read the sentence, if you get a type that is available in YUL, base transfers occur within 2 months, retraining would be required if you need to bid a different type that is in YUL and that takes up to 8 months, perhaps it’s only clear to people who are in the seniority/equipment bid system. I read it and fully understood what he was saying

Got it now.

I didnt catch it the first time.

Thanks buddy. Don't know what I would do without you.

[Dockjock]

This all has to be viewed through the lens of airline flying taken in it's entirety is a job with a terrible schedule. 24/7/365, somebody has to do the work. You need to NOT be the newest, lowest guy to get a good airline schedule, which by regular job standards still basically stinks. Working inside the line of the Security/Industrial Complex is awful, fraught with frustrations and hoop-jumping just to get to your job- where the hours suck.

If you can handle that, and have a personal life that can handle it, then yes there are some advantages to avoiding the monotony of M-F type work. It does take time though, a lot of it. But that's part of the charm. Those people who want to work M-F 0800-1700 picked the wrong effing career.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

With narrowbody & reserve rules being among worst in the world, I would say you just avoid that all together. Unstacking is still rampant and I haven't seen much improvement since the new world class contract.

So that leaves you with Widebody but being RP leaves you being the lowest paid global airline pilot in the world so while you get a decent schedule, you got no money.

So that now leaves you to widebody FO and everyone has figured this out so it goes senior. You really probably need to be about 50% seniority at the airline to get a decent widebody FO schedule.

So around 2700 seniority which is about 8 years, you should have decent pay & schedule. Hope this helps

[LandingLights]

With narrowbody & reserve rules being among worst in the world, I would say you just avoid that all together. Unstacking is still rampant and I haven't seen much improvement since the new world class contract.

So that leaves you with Widebody but being RP leaves you being the lowest paid global airline pilot in the world so while you get a decent schedule, you got no money.

So that now leaves you to widebody FO and everyone has figured this out so it goes senior. You really probably need to be about 50% seniority at the airline to get a decent widebody FO schedule.

So around 2700 seniority which is about 8 years, you should have decent pay & schedule. Hope this helps

For someone hired today (#5700), to reach 50% seniority of around #3000, with an average of 150 retirements per year, it takes (5700-3000)/150=18 years of seniority to reach halfway on the list. Any further expansion could speed up the way to 50%.

[MX-5]

A friend's son got into AC in June 2022 when he was 26, and came from the corporate world. He became a CA on the 320 in April 2024 at 28. Incredibly quick upgrade but what kind of QOL would this young guy have right now?

[khedrei]

A friend's son got into AC in June 2022 when he was 26, and came from the corporate world. He became a CA on the 320 in April 2024 at 28. Incredibly quick upgrade but what kind of QOL would this young guy have right now?

Best guess, zero.

[TheStig]

A friend's son got into AC in June 2022 when he was 26, and came from the corporate world. He became a CA on the 320 in April 2024 at 28. Incredibly quick upgrade but what kind of QOL would this young guy have right now?

Somebody has to cover reserve on weekends, fly red-eyes, layover in Edmonton, etc. There is a reason these positions are available to pilots' with 2 years of service and it's because 4000+ others decided they'd rather give up pay for a different QOL balance.

Your friend's son decided that being in the top 5% of income earners in this country was worth his weekends and holidays for the foreseeable future. As higher paying positions become available to increasingly junior pilots it becomes easier and easier to justify bidding the left seat as its not actually going to be that different than their current lifestyle as an FO. The trade off is how long it takes to obtain a good schedule as a Captain than it would have as an FO.

Reserve is pretty quiet for 6-8 months a year, often junior pilots can hold blocks because pilots just senior to them bid for reserve months knowing they'll have an easier month than if they chose to fly a block.

Hopefully they are making good use of the weekends they don't get called and week days off to ski, bike, play sports, spend time with friends and family, run errands, or whatever they'd like to do. Contractually they'll be scheduled for 16 days a month, minus vacation days, SDO's, '3 family care giver days', 12 sick days. Having come from the corporate world it would be interesting to hear how different their lifestyle is now vs then.

[rudder]

A friend's son got into AC in June 2022 when he was 26, and came from the corporate world. He became a CA on the 320 in April 2024 at 28. Incredibly quick upgrade but what kind of QOL would this young guy have right now?

Somebody has to cover reserve on weekends, fly red-eyes, layover in Edmonton, etc. There is a reason these positions are available to pilots' with 2 years of service and it's because 4000+ others decided they'd rather give up pay for a different QOL balance.

Your friend's son decided that being in the top 5% of income earners in this country was worth his weekends and holidays for the foreseeable future. As higher paying positions become available to increasingly junior pilots it becomes easier and easier to justify bidding the left seat as its not actually going to be that different than their current lifestyle as an FO. The trade off is how long it takes to obtain a good schedule as a Captain than it would have as an FO.

Reserve is pretty quiet for 6-8 months a year, often junior pilots can hold blocks because pilots just senior to them bid for reserve months knowing they'll have an easier month than if they chose to fly a block.

Hopefully they are making good use of the weekends they don't get called and week days off to ski, bike, play sports, spend time with friends and family, run errands, or whatever they'd like to do. Contractually they'll be scheduled for 16 days a month, minus vacation days, SDO's, '3 family care giver days', 12 sick days. Having come from the corporate world it would be interesting to hear how different their lifestyle is now vs then.

Seems that a strategy in the last bid for some NB CA (not at the bottom) to now bid WB FO at 10+ YOS.

Probably a math exercise where with the new rates the take home pay is only nominally lower in exchange for 3-5 more days off per month. Also nice to do just one sector per duty period.

Seems the $$ are there for those who want them. And QOL options (if you have decent seniority).

[Man_in_the_sky]

A friend's son got into AC in June 2022 when he was 26, and came from the corporate world. He became a CA on the 320 in April 2024 at 28. Incredibly quick upgrade but what kind of QOL would this young guy have right now?

Best guess, zero.

he's earning close to 250K +

If he can't have a decent QOL at work, he sure damn can have fun on his days off without worrying about the financial part.

[khedrei]

A friend's son got into AC in June 2022 when he was 26, and came from the corporate world. He became a CA on the 320 in April 2024 at 28. Incredibly quick upgrade but what kind of QOL would this young guy have right now?

Best guess, zero.

he's earning close to 250K +

If he can't have a decent QOL at work, he sure damn can have fun on his days off without worrying about the financial part.

The question was QoL not what his salary is.

It's hard to have a good quality of life at home when you're not home enough to have it. Doing red eyes or coming home at 4 am... he likely spends the first 24 hrs of his days off recovering. I've seen a new AC captains schedule. Not too many long stretches off.

Been there. Done that. Got the mug. No thanks.

[MX-5]

A friend's son got into AC in June 2022 when he was 26, and came from the corporate world. He became a CA on the 320 in April 2024 at 28. Incredibly quick upgrade but what kind of QOL would this young guy have right now?

Best guess, zero.

he's earning close to 250K +

If he can't have a decent QOL at work, he sure damn can have fun on his days off without worrying about the financial part.

His Dad (my acquaintance) is a retired 777 CA and is obviously pretty proud of his kid and I would be too.

[fish4life]

At that age he probably doesn’t have kids so it’s a great time to make money and enjoy the weekdays off. I preferred weekdays off over weekends before kids so combine that with the need to make that kind of money to get into the housing market I would say he made the right choice.
Besides it took a lot of us longer and were older before we even got to AC.

[altiplano]

When I think of how hard and how much I was working at 26... and how little I was making... 15 or 16 days and 250K a year would be dreaming.

Every day all day, no responsibilities, and I still managed a life...

[Jean-Pierre]

I'd retire at 40.