WB FO Hire?

[Airspeed Addict]

Does/Has WJ ever hired FO's directly onto the 78? I'm thinking more so if someone already had widebody jet time or even already type rated on the Dreamliner?

With current upgrade times being lengthy (I think min 10 years on the narrow body) - how long would it take for a FO on a 73 to bid for a widebody right seat slot? Is it even possible? How are widebody Captains coming to be? Surely it shouldn't be 25 year of sitting right seat just to get 5 years in the left before you retire!

[Tbayer2021]

Does/Has WJ ever hired FO's directly onto the 78? I'm thinking more so if someone already had widebody jet time or even already type rated on the Dreamliner?

With current upgrade times being lengthy (I think min 10 years on the narrow body) - how long would it take for a FO on a 73 to bid for a widebody right seat slot? Is it even possible? How are widebody Captains coming to be? Surely it shouldn't be 25 year of sitting right seat just to get 5 years in the left before you retire!

Positions and upgrades at airlines in Canada are dictated by seniority only. You can show up from overseas or a different airline in Canada with years of WB experience and if narrow body FO is all that's available, thats what you'll get. 787 is a highly desired position at WJ, therefore it will be very senior so long as the company doesn't grow that side of the operation.

>Surely it shouldn't be 25 year of sitting right seat just to get 5 years in the left before you retire!

An airline isn't going to acquire more aircraft just so pilots can have more time in them.

[Canadaflyer46]

Currently 10 years seniority to be the bottom of reserve FO on the 787. With the lack of any additional 787s and the upcoming reduction bid for YYZ I’d expect that will continue to increase.

[Airspeed Addict]

Positions and upgrades at airlines in Canada are dictated by seniority only. You can show up from overseas or a different airline in Canada with years of WB experience and if narrow body FO is all that's available, thats what you'll get. 787 is a highly desired position at WJ, therefore it will be very senior so long as the company doesn't grow that side of the operation.

No I get that, especially with AC and each PIT/Bid dependant on what equipment/bases are available. I know there's been Encore pilots get awarded 777RP at AC I'm more so wondering if WJ ever allowed an initial offer to go directly to the widebody or if everyone has to run the gauntlet in the 73's first.

[Tbayer2021]

Positions and upgrades at airlines in Canada are dictated by seniority only. You can show up from overseas or a different airline in Canada with years of WB experience and if narrow body FO is all that's available, thats what you'll get. 787 is a highly desired position at WJ, therefore it will be very senior so long as the company doesn't grow that side of the operation.

No I get that, especially with AC and each PIT/Bid dependant on what equipment/bases are available. I know there's been Encore pilots get awarded 777RP at AC I'm more so wondering if WJ ever allowed an initial offer to go directly to the widebody or if everyone has to run the gauntlet in the 73's first.

The reason that happened in the past at AC was due to a confluence of reasons that made wide body FO positions undesirable for pilots when they could hold NB captain. Now that WB pay is more attractive on the FO side at AC, you will probably not see those positions going junior moving forward. A senior pilot will now be able to make a similar salary as a WB FO vs NB captain, specially with a sprinkling of OT.

As far as I know, WJ hasn't been in a position to require awarding new hires or junior pilots 787 positions.

[cdnavater]

Positions and upgrades at airlines in Canada are dictated by seniority only. You can show up from overseas or a different airline in Canada with years of WB experience and if narrow body FO is all that's available, thats what you'll get. 787 is a highly desired position at WJ, therefore it will be very senior so long as the company doesn't grow that side of the operation.

No I get that, especially with AC and each PIT/Bid dependant on what equipment/bases are available. I know there's been Encore pilots get awarded 777RP at AC I'm more so wondering if WJ ever allowed an initial offer to go directly to the widebody or if everyone has to run the gauntlet in the 73's first.

In a seniority based system, to be awarded a position, it has to be open but if there is an open position they would need to see if any current pilot has a standing bid for that position and award it making the position no longer open.
Odds of an opening for the 87 going unfilled internally are pretty slim and I’ve never heard of it but I don’t work there so it’s just hearsay.

[throwawaycorporate]

Positions and upgrades at airlines in Canada are dictated by seniority only. You can show up from overseas or a different airline in Canada with years of WB experience and if narrow body FO is all that's available, thats what you'll get. 787 is a highly desired position at WJ, therefore it will be very senior so long as the company doesn't grow that side of the operation.

No I get that, especially with AC and each PIT/Bid dependant on what equipment/bases are available. I know there's been Encore pilots get awarded 777RP at AC I'm more so wondering if WJ ever allowed an initial offer to go directly to the widebody or if everyone has to run the gauntlet in the 73's first.

In a seniority based system, to be awarded a position, it has to be open but if there is an open position they would need to see if any current pilot has a standing bid for that position and award it making the position no longer open.
Odds of an opening for the 87 going unfilled internally are pretty slim and I’ve never heard of it but I don’t work there so it’s just hearsay.

Even if there was in this theoretical game an unfilled 787 available in ground school it would be available for the class to bid in seniority order and have nothing to do with previous WB experience

[Aotearoa]

In the triumph of collectivist aviation, Canada’s airlines have abolished the corrupting influence of skill, experience, and ambition! No longer shall pilots be judged by their ability—only by their years of loyal service to the system.

At WestJet, the mighty 787 Dreamliner is reserved for the most senior comrades, ensuring that no upstart with mere “widebody experience” disrupts the sacred order. Those arriving from foreign lands must humbly accept their fate in the right seat of a narrow-body aircraft, no different from the greenest cadet. After all, fairness demands that all must wait decades for a brief, glorious turn in the left seat before retirement!

And let none mistake the purpose of the system—it does not exist to serve personal ambition! Progression is not a matter of want or need but of time, order, and the sacred hierarchy of seniority.

Rejoice, comrades! Meritocracy has been vanquished. The cockpit belongs to time itself!

[daedalusx]

In the triumph of collectivist aviation, Canada’s airlines have abolished the corrupting influence of skill, experience, and ambition! No longer shall pilots be judged by their ability—only by their years of loyal service to the system.

At WestJet, the mighty 787 Dreamliner is reserved for the most senior comrades, ensuring that no upstart with mere “widebody experience” disrupts the sacred order. Those arriving from foreign lands must humbly accept their fate in the right seat of a narrow-body aircraft, no different from the greenest cadet. After all, fairness demands that all must wait decades for a brief, glorious turn in the left seat before retirement!

And let none mistake the purpose of the system—it does not exist to serve personal ambition! Progression is not a matter of want or need but of time, order, and the sacred hierarchy of seniority.

Rejoice, comrades! Meritocracy has been vanquished. The cockpit belongs to time itself!

There's plenty of WB opportunities for you elsewhere. Why don't you go to AC or CJ ? Go be a 767/777 FO for 80k a year

[goingnowherefast]

In the triumph of collectivist aviation, Canada’s airlines have abolished the corrupting influence of skill, experience, and ambition! No longer shall pilots be judged by their ability—only by their years of loyal service to the system.

At WestJet, the mighty 787 Dreamliner is reserved for the most senior comrades, ensuring that no upstart with mere “widebody experience” disrupts the sacred order. Those arriving from foreign lands must humbly accept their fate in the right seat of a narrow-body aircraft, no different from the greenest cadet. After all, fairness demands that all must wait decades for a brief, glorious turn in the left seat before retirement!

And let none mistake the purpose of the system—it does not exist to serve personal ambition! Progression is not a matter of want or need but of time, order, and the sacred hierarchy of seniority.

Rejoice, comrades! Meritocracy has been vanquished. The cockpit belongs to time itself!

Seniority is like democracy. As Winston Churchill said "it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried".

Yes, seniority equipment bids are a terrible system, but it leaves no room for opinion or interpretation.

Would you prefer that your position and airplane type are determined by the chief pilot instead? Maybe someone's tired (literally) of long haul, time zones and circadian rhythm shifts and wants to fly predominantly domestic. But no, the chief pilot says "you've got 787 time, no 737 allowed. Maybe an Encore captain marries the chief pilot. There's also a senior ex-Emirates pilot who wants a 787 FO spot, but the chief pilot's spouse gets the job instead.

Seniority is a crap system, but it's better than the alternatives.

[RatMan]

Dude asks a very simple and valid question, directed toward WJ pilots. And on AvCan, everybody feels obliged to chime in with their opinion whilst not even coming close to answering the OP question. I wonder how many pages of arguments we'll get out of this one. I swear I keep coming back just to watch the keyboard warriors and their egos battle it out. Where's Duke at? He'll be by shortly for sure

[cdnavater]

Dude asks a very simple and valid question, directed toward WJ pilots. And on AvCan, everybody feels obliged to chime in with their opinion whilst not even coming close to answering the OP question. I wonder how many pages of arguments we'll get out of this one. I swear I keep coming back just to watch the keyboard warriors and their egos battle it out. Where's Duke at? He'll be by shortly for sure

It has been answered, the answer is, seniority is what fills the position, therefore no new hire will be awarded said position!

[lownslow]

Dude asks a very simple and valid question, directed toward WJ pilots

Right? I’d just assumed the context of it was whether WJ compared to AC’s practice of sometimes forcing new hires onto a fleet that they’re already typed on.

With WJ’s much less diverse fleets I’d assumed the answer was no but I guess that’s now been confirmed.

[JBI]

Does/Has WJ ever hired FO's directly onto the 78? I'm thinking more so if someone already had widebody jet time or even already type rated on the Dreamliner?

With current upgrade times being lengthy (I think min 10 years on the narrow body) - how long would it take for a FO on a 73 to bid for a widebody right seat slot? Is it even possible? How are widebody Captains coming to be? Surely it shouldn't be 25 year of sitting right seat just to get 5 years in the left before you retire!

In addition to the previous correct comments of it being a senior position, WestJet’s 787 course through TC approval requires a type rating on the 737 already. So we did have a longer term Encore pilot who had seniority to hold 787 FO when he flowed get denied a 787 position (it was a petty position by the company, but he instead went on the 737, flew his butt off and then just upgraded on the 737).

In addition to a much smaller widebody fleet than AC, even being on reserve on the 787 is a better lifestyle than bottom of the list on AC widebodies.

To be clear, overall AC has way more WB opportunities than WJ, but bottom of the list on the WJ 787 is, generally speaking, much better than bottom of the list on an AC 787.

[Oleo 4]

Evening,

The 87 at WestJet does not have a full initial course. From the start of the 87 flying, the pilot training manual had an approved short type rating course that required 2 years of 37 experience. Was not a petty position on the companies behalf, just a misunderstood reality of the details of a STAR course vs a full initial with regards to the pilot training manual. To date, their is still no requirement to develop a full initial course as all FO's are 10+ years. Our relief pilots are fully qualified First Officers or Captains. We do not have the need to for a direct hire to occupy the RP seat as other companies have done in the past to date.

O

[Canadaflyer46]

Petty is the right word. After all, how many 737 pilots were type rated on the Q400 during COVID to then only fly it for a pairing or two.
WestJet is one of the only (if not THE only) airline that will cheap out and use a ‘short course’ for 787 initials. This is the reason they require 2 years on a WJ 737. If there’s a vacancy and your seniority allows it, the 787 spot should be yours. Or else pay bypass pay if you’re too god damn cheap to train the guy. Embarrassing.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Petty is the right word. After all, how many 737 pilots were type rated on the Q400 during COVID to then only fly it for a pairing or two.
WestJet is one of the only (if not THE only) airline that will cheap out and use a ‘short course’ for 787 initials. This is the reason they require 2 years on a WJ 737. If there’s a vacancy and your seniority allows it, the 787 spot should be yours. Or else pay bypass pay if you’re too god damn cheap to train the guy. Embarrassing.

Who cares? It’s all seniority based and you’re not getting the 87 for near a decade, which means you’ll have plenty of 37 time to make it a short course.

[cdnavater]

Petty is the right word. After all, how many 737 pilots were type rated on the Q400 during COVID to then only fly it for a pairing or two.
WestJet is one of the only (if not THE only) airline that will cheap out and use a ‘short course’ for 787 initials. This is the reason they require 2 years on a WJ 737. If there’s a vacancy and your seniority allows it, the 787 spot should be yours. Or else pay bypass pay if you’re too god damn cheap to train the guy. Embarrassing.

Who cares? It’s all seniority based and you’re not getting the 87 for near a decade, which means you’ll have plenty of 37 time to make it a short course.

I believe the poster is referring to the one time an Encore pilot stayed at Encore long enough to actually hold 87 when they flowed, they were prevented from bidding it and had to sit right seat 37.
In that case I kind of agree the company should’ve paid the 87 rate unless of course there was something in the contract stating you must do two years minimum before being able to bid the 87, without that it seems there should’ve been a grievance filed and for all we know there was.

I’m curious though, if you go to the 87 on a short course, after 2 years your 37 type rating should be expired, requiring a full initial which they obviously have for the new hires. What happens if it’s been less than 2 years, is there a short course back as well?

[JBI]

There are and/or have been approximately 10 pilots from Encore who elected to stay at Encore for longer than their first chance to flow that would have (or currently do have) the seniority to hold the 787 prior to being eligible (either they had the reserved seniority to hold the 787 straight from Encore or they had the seniority prior to being on the 737 for two years, but were not eligible to move to the 787 due to the seat freeze).

There were no restrictions outlined in the Pilot Transfer Agreement and my understanding was that previously, it was not written anywhere that was easily accessible by the pilot group that a 737 type rating from WJ was required for the 787 and there was no option for an initial course. This information is now available.

Now that all the information is out there for pilots to make their career decisions, if the same situation happened now, I would agree with Oleo 4's assessment that it is a misunderstood reality of the training footprint. However, the reality is that there have been, and currently are, pilots who have the seniority to hold a 787 FO position that are not eligible for the position. While the 787 FOs all have 9+ years of seniority, not all pilots who have 9+ years seniority have 2 years on the 737.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Petty is the right word. After all, how many 737 pilots were type rated on the Q400 during COVID to then only fly it for a pairing or two.
WestJet is one of the only (if not THE only) airline that will cheap out and use a ‘short course’ for 787 initials. This is the reason they require 2 years on a WJ 737. If there’s a vacancy and your seniority allows it, the 787 spot should be yours. Or else pay bypass pay if you’re too god damn cheap to train the guy. Embarrassing.

Who cares? It’s all seniority based and you’re not getting the 87 for near a decade, which means you’ll have plenty of 37 time to make it a short course.

I believe the poster is referring to the one time an Encore pilot stayed at Encore long enough to actually hold 87 when they flowed, they were prevented from bidding it and had to sit right seat 37.
In that case I kind of agree the company should’ve paid the 87 rate unless of course there was something in the contract stating you must do two years minimum before being able to bid the 87, without that it seems there should’ve been a grievance filed and for all we know there was.

I’m curious though, if you go to the 87 on a short course, after 2 years your 37 type rating should be expired, requiring a full initial which they obviously have for the new hires. What happens if it’s been less than 2 years, is there a short course back as well?

Oh you’re right. I may have misread.

[Stratopaused]

In the triumph of collectivist aviation, Canada’s airlines have abolished the corrupting influence of skill, experience, and ambition! No longer shall pilots be judged by their ability—only by their years of loyal service to the system.

At WestJet, the mighty 787 Dreamliner is reserved for the most senior comrades, ensuring that no upstart with mere “widebody experience” disrupts the sacred order. Those arriving from foreign lands must humbly accept their fate in the right seat of a narrow-body aircraft, no different from the greenest cadet. After all, fairness demands that all must wait decades for a brief, glorious turn in the left seat before retirement!

And let none mistake the purpose of the system—it does not exist to serve personal ambition! Progression is not a matter of want or need but of time, order, and the sacred hierarchy of seniority.

Rejoice, comrades! Meritocracy has been vanquished. The cockpit belongs to time itself!

Every pilot at WestJet, and Air Canada for that matter, is legally qualified to be a captain on any aircraft that they operate by virtue of having an ATPL upon being hired. (The Sunwing cadets will inevitably be brought up, but they're not material to the discussion at hand because they weren't hired at WestJet) Every pilot at WestJet and Air Canada receives the same training, regardless of whether they already hold the type rating. Thus, every pilot who is on the line at those airlines is equally qualified to fly the aircraft, even if they have previous time on type. 9999 times out of 10000, everything goes routinely and everyone follows the same script, so there's no benefit provided by having time on type, and in that unlikely 1/10000 event it's highly improbable that the pilot with time on type would have dealt with that specific emergency in the past. From the airline's perspective, they're operating a couple of dozen 787 flights a day, so what are the odds that the specific pilot who has experience on the aircraft will be on the specific flight that has the emergency? Realistically, he or she will be sitting fat, dumb, and happy in cruise while another crew is managing the situation, so there's no incentive for management to pay them more or give up negotiating capital in a contract to allow them to bypass seniority. The best outcome is ensured by providing every crew member with high-quality training that ensures they can adapt to challenging situations.