YYZ RJ landing Accident

[55+]

I feel for the Capt and FO, no doubt emotionally scarred by this accident and will be for a lengthy time if not throughout the remaining aviation career. If there is such thing as consolation for them , nobody died on their watch.

Yet. 3 in critical condition at last report.

I feel for them, and other pax emotionally scarred by being violently turned upside down in an aircraft.

Whether I feel as much for the Cap and Fo will depend on the substance of the TSB’s report.

How’s this post aging…. based on the information coming out…hmmmmm

Actually I have more empathy for this Captain and FO because their names and pictures including profiles are splashed over social media sources, not from their employer I might add. Note I said Captain and FO as I do not and have no interest in gender affiliation. As for “ information “ let me say no source is privy to the investigation process ongoing with TSB and NTSB. The Findings as to cause and contributing factors hasn’t been established and is nowhere near that as of now. Anything outside of that is hyperbole and conjecture.

Regards
55+

[Daniel Cooper]

Looking at it from a purely scientific perspective and not letting emotions get involved, female pilots make up 6% of the American pilot population but were behind the controls of 100% of the serious accidents this year. This statistic indicates a significant correlation but not necessarily a causation.

[digits_]

Looking at it from a purely scientific perspective and not letting emotions get involved, female pilots make up 6% of the American pilot population but were behind the controls of 100% of the serious accidents this year. This statistic indicates a significant correlation but not necessarily a causation.

Where did you find the 6% statistics? Are there numbers available by experience/age as well? I suspect the female % will be higher for younger generations. Younger generally means less experience, which could explain the statistics as well.

[Pratt X 3]

Gee, why is my dog going nuts every time I open this thread? Oh, that's right, he goes bananas for every dog-whistle he hears, including those sexist or racist ones that only identify the blowers' insecurities.

And since we are at that point in the show where we start pulling statistics out of our asses to try and further our narrow-minded views, how about the fact (I researched it!) that 100% of the pilots (both licenced and unlicenced) of the 4 hijacked planes were men on 9/11. Or what about 6 men/0 women on the flight decks in Tenerife? How about the first passenger to die in a powered aircraft was piloted by Orville Wright, a man.

[55+]

Agreed 55, but as I said I do tend to have more empathy for the Pax all things equal —-

I agree with you wholeheartedly(pax empathy) and I should have conflated both. Undoubtedly terrifying for those passengers hung upside down after witnessing a wing detaching followed by a fire. Truly horrific to say the least, they deserve full redress after going through that very unnerving event.

Regards
55+

[rookiepilot]

Agreed 55, but as I said I do tend to have more empathy for the Pax all things equal —-

I agree with you wholeheartedly(pax empathy) and I should have conflated both. Undoubtedly terrifying for those passengers hung upside down after witnessing a wing detaching followed by a fire. Truly horrific to say the least, they deserve full redress after going through that very unnerving event.

Regards
55+

The fear of fire, being burned alive would be quite traumatic. I’ve been there in a small aircraft myself, and I had my own door to get out.

[pelmet]

Looking at it from a purely scientific perspective and not letting emotions get involved, female pilots make up 6% of the American pilot population but were behind the controls of 100% of the serious accidents this year. This statistic indicates a significant correlation but not necessarily a causation.

Actually, we don’t know that. There can be an exchange of controls for various reasons. For example, the captain of the CRJ may have decided late in the approach to take control for landing due to the weather conditions or at the request of the F/O, perhaps due to the winds. I have seen this situation more than once. The helicopter commander could have done the same for demonstration purposes.

While scrolling through Endeavor Air’s social media, I noticed the airline seemed to put a lot of focus on hiring female flight crew. The airline posted several tweets and TikToks bragging about “unmanned” flights (crews that had only women and no men).

Screenshot_20250220_144802_Firefox~2.jpg

The “Buckle Up” statement could end up looking extremely bad if landing technique ends up being the cause, especially if there was a history of this.


Reminds me of a story when I worked for a foreign company that had a variety of large and small aircraft including 747’s. There was a young ab initio girl there that had gotten a bunch of hard landings on that type and had multiple extra sims for landing practice because of this. This subject came up with one of the captains one day who said he wasn’t happy with her taxiing technique. In his discussion with her about technique, he asked what she would do when driving a car. The answer was that she doesn’t know how to drive a car and does not have a drivers license. She was later moved to a commuter company to fly turboprops.

[Barn-stormer]

Looking at it from a purely scientific perspective and not letting emotions get involved, female pilots make up 6% of the American pilot population but were behind the controls of 100% of the serious accidents this year. This statistic indicates a significant correlation but not necessarily a causation.

Where did you find the 6% statistics? Are there numbers available by experience/age as well? I suspect the female % will be higher for younger generations. Younger generally means less experience, which could explain the statistics as well.

A simple google search found this:
Women airline pilots' share in the US grew from 3.3% in 2002 to 4.9% in 2022. Women pilots' share of US airline pilot licences has grown over 20 years, rising from 3.3% in 2002 to 4.9% in 2022. Women's share of all FAA pilot licences in the US is higher than this, and has grown more rapidly in recent years.

[digits_]

Reminds me of a story when I worked for a foreign company that had a variety of large and small aircraft including 747’s. There was a young ab initio girl there that had gotten a bunch of hard landings on that type and had multiple extra sims for landing practice because of this. This subject came up with one of the captains one day who said he wasn’t happy with her taxiing technique. In his discussion with her about technique, he asked what she would do when driving a car. The answer was that she doesn’t know how to drive a car and does not have a drivers license. She was later moved to a commuter company to fly turboprops.

Why is that story relevant? Plenty of people start flight training before they have a driver's license. I can easily see people postpone the expense of a car while paying off/for flight school.

[rookiepilot]

I agree with you wholeheartedly(pax empathy) and I should have conflated both. Undoubtedly terrifying for those passengers hung upside down after witnessing a wing detaching followed by a fire. Truly horrific to say the least, they deserve full redress after going through that very unnerving event.

Regards
55+

The fear of fire, being burned alive would be quite traumatic. I’ve been there in a small aircraft myself, and I had my own door to get out.

Well despite that, certainly gratifying you are around to converse. Having said that I don’t always agree with your stance , that is when I take a look see. However it is a public forum and you have the right to pontificate on any subject here like the rest of us. Been pontificating myself as of late so time to step back to other things

Kindest regards
55+

Kindest regards back:

One thing I did not make clear. The news I referenced— as I see it its more the increasing likelihood this was yet another human error accident, as opposed to a catastrophic mechanical failure (the reason for my own light aircraft accident that inverted me)

Now the investigation will take its course and obviously a different conclusion may well be determined.

In any event I could care less about the gender or ethnicity of any pilot, posts on this thread referencing those are just ridiculous — at best.

Its the instant— and not by you, necessarily— focus on empathy for the flight crew over the passengers on all of these threads. Thank you for your comments expressing sympathy for the pax.

In my view, you put on the uniform, you are no longer a passenger, you want the bars, you accept full and complete responsibility, including when it goes ugly, up and to including firing for incompetence— something not popular these days to even mention, and doesn’t happen (look at the articles on 3 day suspensions for teachers caught in wilful misconduct). Yeah life sucks when one f—-s up but thats the price for a society with personal freedoms = personal accountability.

Hire and fire based on performance. I ask for Nothing more. Not probation. Not retraining. Because passengers are trusting their lives to us as pilots, and they deserve the best.

I am an amateur pilot and have been a professional trader for 28 years.

The verdict on my decisions in my chosen profession is instant, crystal clear and unforgiving, based on the ice cold calculating numbers on a screen. I have no where to look but in the mirror. I have gotten quite good at it, out of necessity, but I fear in our society I am in the minority, most want to point fingers elsewhere for their mistakes.



Best, Robert

[phenix]

Looking at it from a purely scientific perspective and not letting emotions get involved, female pilots make up 6% of the American pilot population but were behind the controls of 100% of the serious accidents this year. This statistic indicates a significant correlation but not necessarily a causation.

Statistics based on a sample of 2 accidents? Scientific reasoning requires a significant sample size to make statistics, otherwise you will simply see coincidences.
And the caravan that went down in Alaska was flown by a male pilot.

[dontcallmeshirley]

Somehow the FO was hired in Jan 2024. Was she still in line indoc or could only fly with LTCs in Feb 2025 ? hint hint

Training captains can fly line flights without conducting training.
Line checks happen continuously throughout a career.
Remedial training can be ordered for many different reasons.

There are many plausible explanations for this situation and your inference is nothing but conjecture.

[mel gibson]

I am only going to comment one last time.

But , someone had posted part of their flight plan that listed the crew names and other information. There was a note stating, "If radio altimeter number 2 is placarded deactivated and number 1 fails follow procedure in qrh temporary supplement located in efb"
Does this indicate Radio Altimeter 2 was unserviceable ? If it was , would this be a huge disadvantage to the pilot flying First Officer as to when to cut the power. The number one may provide the required info and call outs, I cannot remember, current CRJ pilots can elaborate.
We use these altitude callouts close to the ground from the radio altimeter all the time.

Along with the illusions of drifting snow on the runway , along with mechanical turbulence from the hangars with a northwest wind, (read from another forum) where the "bottom can fall out beneath you" that requires almost max power to arrest, to other theories postulated equates to this terrible ending.

I know it is not professional to speculate now, but hits home for a lot of us and is worth discussing.

FLY SAFE

[sstaurus]

...

Along with the illusions of drifting snow on the runway , along with mechanical turbulence from the hangars with a northwest wind, (read from another forum) where the "bottom can fall out beneath you" that requires almost max power to arrest, to other theories postulated equates to this terrible ending.
...

I'm curious, are all RJ's no autothrottle landings? I thought I read that somewhere here. I always preferred the 37 (I'm assuming other Boeing products are the same) with the backdriven throttles where you could 'help out' the levers by nudging them forward to arrest a last minute excessive sink rate if the autothrottles weren't quick enough. Not so in the Airbus, where you are only setting a thrust limit, and you're kinda hooped and can only go around, unless you had decided earlier to manually control the approach. How do the RJ A/T's work?

[CaptDukeNukem]

...

Along with the illusions of drifting snow on the runway , along with mechanical turbulence from the hangars with a northwest wind, (read from another forum) where the "bottom can fall out beneath you" that requires almost max power to arrest, to other theories postulated equates to this terrible ending.
...

I'm curious, are all RJ's no autothrottle landings? I thought I read that somewhere here. I always preferred the 37 (I'm assuming other Boeing products are the same) with the backdriven throttles where you could 'help out' the levers by nudging them forward to arrest a last minute excessive sink rate if the autothrottles weren't quick enough. Not so in the Airbus, where you are only setting a thrust limit, and you're kinda hooped and can only go around, unless you had decided earlier to manually control the approach. How do the RJ A/T's work?

Numerous aircraft landed safely at Pearson including RJs the entire day before the incident. I don’t know how the RJ works or flies, but many of them landed safely minutes or hours before.

[dieselbro]

I'm curious, are all RJ's no autothrottle landings? I thought I read that somewhere here. I always preferred the 37 (I'm assuming other Boeing products are the same) with the backdriven throttles where you could 'help out' the levers by nudging them forward to arrest a last minute excessive sink rate if the autothrottles weren't quick enough. Not so in the Airbus, where you are only setting a thrust limit, and you're kinda hooped and can only go around, unless you had decided earlier to manually control the approach. How do the RJ A/T's work?

As far as I know Autothrottles might have been an option on the CRJ, but it seems more like a myth.

None of the Jazz machines (old 200s or 900s) have them. None of the ex-Skywest tails (900) Jazz picked up were AT equipped either. It is up to the pilots to manage thrust for all phases of flight.

[flyguy73]

I think people are getting upset because they think we're saying women can't fly. That is not the case! Some of the best pilots I've flown with have been women. The issue is when women who can't fly are given flying positions because they're women. That is what everyone is fighting against.

The DC crash was due to the fact that the white male instructor told ATC he had the traffic in sight and would follow behind the traffic. Clearly he didn't have the correct traffic in sight and had the trainee fly directly into the RJ.

Maybe if you had actual relationships with females and understood your white male privilege a little better, you wouldn't be such a misogynist and you would have gotten laid more often in high school.

[rookiepilot]

I think people are getting upset because they think we're saying women can't fly. That is not the case! Some of the best pilots I've flown with have been women. The issue is when women who can't fly are given flying positions because they're women. That is what everyone is fighting against.

The DC crash was due to the fact that the white male instructor told ATC he had the traffic in sight and would follow behind the traffic. Clearly he didn't have the correct traffic in sight and had the trainee fly directly into the RJ.

The DC crash was due to the insane practice of allowing visual separation at night crossing a flight path in class B on short final, thats been well established, so don’t use that accident to make a point here.

[flyguy73]

I think people are getting upset because they think we're saying women can't fly. That is not the case! Some of the best pilots I've flown with have been women. The issue is when women who can't fly are given flying positions because they're women. That is what everyone is fighting against.

The DC crash was due to the fact that the white male instructor told ATC he had the traffic in sight and would follow behind the traffic. Clearly he didn't have the correct traffic in sight and had the trainee fly directly into the RJ.

The DC crash was due to the insane practice of allowing visual separation at night crossing a flight path in class B on short final, thats been well established, so don’t use that accident to make a point here.

As insane as the practice may be, visual separation at night relies on see and avoid. White dude that said he had the traffic in sight failed to do either. I will use this point as often as I can when others keep trying to push their misogynist agenda.

[flyguy73]

The DC crash was due to the insane practice of allowing visual separation at night crossing a flight path in class B on short final, thats been well established, so don’t use that accident to make a point here.

As insane as the practice may be, visual separation at night relies on see and avoid. White dude that said he had the traffic in sight failed to do either. I will use this point as often as I can when others keep trying to push their misogynist agenda.

What is your definition of misogyny? Please be specific.

How about saying that 5% of pilots are female but that 100% of accidents this year have been piloted by women? Seems not only factually incorrect, but just a tad misogynist, no?

And then trying to say that incapable females are being hired hired because they are female? Yeah maybe it's happened. But I guarantee a lot more incompetent males have been hired over the years because they were males. Hell, the US just voted one in as President.

[dontcallmeshirley]

How about saying that 5% of pilots are female but that 100% of accidents this year have been piloted by women? Seems not only factually incorrect, but just a tad misogynist, no?

And then trying to say that incapable females are being hired hired because they are female? Yeah maybe it's happened. But I guarantee a lot more incompetent males have been hired over the years because they were males. Hell, the US just voted one in as President.

Yeah, great sample size.

DEI changes the bar to be hired. What it doesn't do is change the bar for training or checking. If someone made it through training or checking that did not meet the standards, it is solely on the trainer/examiner and the training department of that airline.

That said, this shit could happen to any one of us. If you think that you're immune from it, either you're not flying or you are a danger to everyone on your plane.

[Sulako]

Let's try to keep this on topic, mmmkay.

There are other threads for other topics, this one is about the RJ landing accident at YYZ. The actual accident.

[pdw]

Normally on a crosswind touchdown it’s not right at the point of a stall with a flat pitch. Therefore the right wheel here, although it seems like almost a “three point”, took on all of weight (W). The wing’s W (most of the left as well, and tail downforce) is all unloaded (exactly straight down) onto the one main in that split sec … so a ‘fresh breakage’ not impossible IMO , ie ‘fatigue’ evidence may be not available..,

Crew gets a warning about some kind of “bump” (possible ahead) … any PIC considers such ‘heads up’ warning. It’s seconds ahead of this event, so any reaction to that info is with-in the sequence of events of this accident as well.

[2112]

Normally on a crosswind touchdown it’s not right at the point of a stall with a flat pitch. Therefore the right wheel here, although it seems like almost a “three point”, took on all of weight (W). The wing’s W (most of the left as well, and tail downforce) is all unloaded (exactly straight down) onto the one main in that split sec … so a ‘fresh breakage’ not impossible IMO , ie ‘fatigue’ evidence may be not available..,

Crew gets a warning about some kind of “bump” (possible ahead) … any PIC considers such ‘heads up’ warning. It’s seconds ahead of this event, so any reaction to that info is with-in the sequence of events of this accident as well.

The “Bump” ATC was referring to is regarding an aircraft holding short beyond the CAT 1 line for 23. I’ve seen this on the ILS 23 before, the glide slope buggers off for a few seconds above path while an aircraft is in the way of the antenna.

[MX-5]

Crew gets a warning about some kind of “bump” (possible ahead) … any PIC considers such ‘heads up’ warning. It’s seconds ahead of this event, so any reaction to that info is with-in the sequence of events of this accident as well.

This word "bump"...is this standard ATC-approved terminology? I've never heard this term before and it seems pretty vague to me.