Career Advice

[cdnavater]

In those jobs, generally, this is how it goes:
What the candidate is being told in the interview: "It's a ramp job, but when there's a spot available, we'll upgrade from the ramp"
What the candidate thinks after doing research: "They lose about one pilot a month, and I would be the third rampie in line. So after about 3 months, maybe 4, I will be flying"
How it turns out: "Damn, it's been 18 months. 20 pilot have left, and we've filled their spots with 19 off the street hires and only 1 ramp guy got upgraded"

That's the situation I want to warn people about. I don't know a single pilot where the ramp to flight line happened as initially discussed.

That is quite a claim — generally how it goes someone is sitting 18 months while 19 people are hired off the street in front of them.

Prove it. Names, dates, places, companies. Should be able to quote at least 5 if its true.

I call BS.

Not BS at all, very common practice in Manitoba, maybe an exaggeration but many times pilots on the ramp are skipped for more experienced candidates.
Now as for your crap about getting to know the pilots, I was a Chief Pilot for a combined 7 years, also ops manager but not relevant to this topic.
I hired over a hundred pilots as part of my job, never once did I hire them to the ramp, all pilots including many who were just fresh out of school were hired based on the interview.
The owner of the company preferred to hire dedicated workers for the ramp jobs and pilots for pilot jobs, only ever had one instance where the interview didn’t work out and I found out during the training the pilot lied about his 3000 hours of experience, the training is where you find out not 18 months of shit labour jobs! It’s a bullshit excuse for what in reality is having spare pilots around who will take your abuse because if they don’t, they are looking at starting over again.
My first job was a ramp position and they did follow seniority for the rampies but not in the pilot roster, we are going back to the early 90s but if I said it was 3 or 4 to 1 for pilots hired directly to the line for every rampie that moved up, I don’t think that would be an exaggeration.
Rookie, you are very opinionated about lots of things you know nothing about, always but you are essentially saying an investment firm would hire investors to be a receptionist until you determine whether or not you trust them with investor money, not happening!

[rookiepilot]

I hired over a hundred pilots as part of my job, never once did I hire them to the ramp, all pilots including many who were just fresh out of school were hired based on the interview.

The owner of the company preferred to hire dedicated workers for the ramp jobs and pilots for pilot jobs,

The owner made that decision. Not you. That's the point here.

Put up your own money if want to say how it goes.

Opinions are like you know what. The difference is owners put up the cash.

You don't know much about the trading world either, cause fresh MBAs yeah -- they have often been glorified water boys. Take it or leave it .

Everyone wants to be friggin trader. One in a thousand really work out. Most end up as order fillers -- flap operators in aviation parlance.

[piperdriver]

The owner made that decision. Not you. That's the point here.

Put up your own money if want to say how it goes.

Opinions are like you know what. The difference is owners put up the cash.

You don't know much about the trading world either, cause fresh MBAs yeah -- they have often been glorified water boys. Take it or leave it .

Everyone wants to be friggin trader. One in a thousand really work out. Most end up as order fillers -- flap operators in aviation parlance.

Even most pros that make it to a prestigious hedge fund are routinely outperformed by the market. Holding an S&P 500 ETF over the long term will outperform most hedge funds.

PS. How is the $200 WTI call going for you Rookie?

[rookiepilot]

The owner made that decision. Not you. That's the point here.

Put up your own money if want to say how it goes.

Opinions are like you know what. The difference is owners put up the cash.

You don't know much about the trading world either, cause fresh MBAs yeah -- they have often been glorified water boys. Take it or leave it .

Everyone wants to be friggin trader. One in a thousand really work out. Most end up as order fillers -- flap operators in aviation parlance.

Even most pros that make it to a prestigious hedge fund are routinely outperformed by the market. Holding an S&P 500 ETF over the long term will outperform most hedge funds.

PS. How is the $200 WTI call going for you Rookie?

That the best you can do? Sad.

[digits_]

Not BS at all, very common practice in Manitoba, maybe an exaggeration but many times pilots on the ramp are skipped for more experienced candidates.

Not an exaggeration, albeit partially an estimate as I was only around at the company for a year but kept in touch with other pilots. It was during the pre covid peak of the (medevac) pilot shortages. And the even worse part is that the same, albeit less extreme, was happening at all levels at multiple companies. For FOs waiting to upgrade to Captain, for Captains to switch airplane types. The economic reality is that it's cheaper to hire one DEC for your fanciest airplane type instead of generating 3 training events to go ramp -> FO, FO->captain, Captain->Captain. That is, before the shortage.

Then a shortage happened and pilots didn't have to take that abuse anymore and just left, pissing off other guys in the queue as well, generating many more training events. Takes companies a while to feel the effects and put a value on that. But that isn't as painful, because at least you're flying an actual airplane even if it's in a seat or type you don't like.

[rookiepilot]

Not BS at all, very common practice in Manitoba, maybe an exaggeration but many times pilots on the ramp are skipped for more experienced candidates.

Not an exaggeration, albeit partially an estimate as I was only around at the company for a year but kept in touch with other pilots. It was during the pre covid peak of the (medevac) pilot shortages. And the even worse part is that the same, albeit less extreme, was happening at all levels at multiple companies. For FOs waiting to upgrade to Captain, for Captains to switch airplane types. The economic reality is that it's cheaper to hire one DEC for your fanciest airplane type instead of generating 3 training events to go ramp -> FO, FO->captain, Captain->Captain. That is, before the shortage.

Then a shortage happened and pilots didn't have to take that abuse anymore and just left, pissing off other guys in the queue as well, generating many more training events. Takes companies a while to feel the effects and put a value on that. But that isn't as painful, because at least you're flying an actual airplane even if it's in a seat or type you don't like.

Why haven't you started your own company Digits?

Or the rest of you whose opinions are only matched by cowardice.

[cdnavater]

I hired over a hundred pilots as part of my job, never once did I hire them to the ramp, all pilots including many who were just fresh out of school were hired based on the interview.

The owner of the company preferred to hire dedicated workers for the ramp jobs and pilots for pilot jobs,

The owner made that decision. Not you. That's the point here.

Put up your own money if want to say how it goes.

Opinions are like you know what. The difference is owners put up the cash.

You don't know much about the trading world either, cause fresh MBAs yeah -- they have often been glorified water boys. Take it or leave it .

Everyone wants to be friggin trader. One in a thousand really work out. Most end up as order fillers -- flap operators in aviation parlance.

First of all, I absolutely had input in those decisions, I’ll give you an example and maybe shouldn’t have said “the owner preferred” because I was the influence on that. The owner had a residential type trailer put behind the hangar, when I asked what the plan was, he was going to have the FOs spend their shift there so we could dispatch the medevacs 15 minutes faster. I put that plan in the trash bin and informed him this would be considered duty time and would need to hire extra pilots to make this plan work. The trailer sat empty and eventually became storage.
My point was and this IS THE MAIN POINT! You don’t need pilots emptying garbage cans or sweeping hangar floors, etc.. to see if they are trusted with your aircraft! A pilot fresh out of school is licenced to fly and only needs specific training for the aircraft they will operate. The training will determine whether or not they can safely operate your aircraft, I would even argue, the longer you keep them doing menial work the harder it will be to train later on.
They are not year 1 apprentices, they have all the requirements for the “trade” the only thing left is experience for the ATPL, which is maybe close to red seal in the sense they could work anywhere in Canada on any equipment subject company policy and of course demonstrate the skills required.
The other point, these business owners putting up their money to start an airline are NOT hiring pilots for ramp jobs to check them out, it’s absolutely, without a doubt for the other reasons mentioned, cheap labour who won’t complain!

[cdnavater]

Not BS at all, very common practice in Manitoba, maybe an exaggeration but many times pilots on the ramp are skipped for more experienced candidates.

Not an exaggeration, albeit partially an estimate as I was only around at the company for a year but kept in touch with other pilots. It was during the pre covid peak of the (medevac) pilot shortages. And the even worse part is that the same, albeit less extreme, was happening at all levels at multiple companies. For FOs waiting to upgrade to Captain, for Captains to switch airplane types. The economic reality is that it's cheaper to hire one DEC for your fanciest airplane type instead of generating 3 training events to go ramp -> FO, FO->captain, Captain->Captain. That is, before the shortage.

Then a shortage happened and pilots didn't have to take that abuse anymore and just left, pissing off other guys in the queue as well, generating many more training events. Takes companies a while to feel the effects and put a value on that. But that isn't as painful, because at least you're flying an actual airplane even if it's in a seat or type you don't like.

Honestly doesn’t surprise me, I saw one guy hired over the rampies because he was “more experienced”, 400 hours instead of the 200, was somebody’s buddy for sure!

[rookiepilot]

I hired over a hundred pilots as part of my job, never once did I hire them to the ramp, all pilots including many who were just fresh out of school were hired based on the interview.

The owner of the company preferred to hire dedicated workers for the ramp jobs and pilots for pilot jobs,

The owner made that decision. Not you. That's the point here.

Put up your own money if want to say how it goes.

Opinions are like you know what. The difference is owners put up the cash.

You don't know much about the trading world either, cause fresh MBAs yeah -- they have often been glorified water boys. Take it or leave it .

Everyone wants to be friggin trader. One in a thousand really work out. Most end up as order fillers -- flap operators in aviation parlance.

First of all, I absolutely had input in those decisions, I’ll give you an example and maybe shouldn’t have said “the owner preferred” because I was the influence on that. The owner had a residential type trailer put behind the hangar, when I asked what the plan was, he was going to have the FOs spend their shift there so we could dispatch the medevacs 15 minutes faster. I put that plan in the trash bin and informed him this would be considered duty time and would need to hire extra pilots to make this plan work. The trailer sat empty and eventually became storage.
My point was and this IS THE MAIN POINT! You don’t need pilots emptying garbage cans or sweeping hangar floors, etc.. to see if they are trusted with your aircraft! A pilot fresh out of school is licenced to fly and only needs specific training for the aircraft they will operate. The training will determine whether or not they can safely operate your aircraft, I would even argue, the longer you keep them doing menial work the harder it will be to train later on.
They are not year 1 apprentices, they have all the requirements for the “trade” the only thing left is experience for the ATPL, which is maybe close to red seal in the sense they could work anywhere in Canada on any equipment subject company policy and of course demonstrate the skills required.
The other point, these business owners putting up their money to start an airline are NOT hiring pilots for ramp jobs to check them out, it’s absolutely, without a doubt for the other reasons mentioned, cheap labour who won’t complain!

Fair enough, the owner, wisely enough, decided to avail himself of a highly experienced employee to make strategic decisions. All good.

I respect your POV for the same reason. Experience.

My point, its the owners call to make, wisely or foolishly, its them who put up the cash, and I don't think much of pilots fresh out of flight school telling an owner of a 703 how to run their shop.

Is it safely sometimes, or cheap labour sometimes? I don’t know. I have a concept on how I might approach things.

But it’s not for me at 25 say, to lecture a 60 year old who’s put up millions of dollars building something, when the bank of Mom and Dad paid my flight training. Thats just offensive.

At least — Do it in person then. Its SO cowardly to take shots at a business anonymously. At least have the guts to do it behind your own name.

Same goes for those fresh out of business school -- you don't go off telling Goldman how to run their business.

New doctors don’t mouth off to neurologists.

Or any other trade for that matter. New lawyers do not mouth off to the managing partner.

None have earned the right to do so. Rightly or wrongly, I do not believe graduating with any form of degree, by itself, conveys any respect or accomplishment. In all instances, graduating provides a license to learn.

[rookiepilot]

Disagree, and anyone who says differently has never put their own money and reputation on the line to actually build something.

School of any kind does not build an ounce of character IMO, nor qualify someone to take serious responsibility in any field right out of the gate.

Only long apprenticeships do so.

Sorry for hard truth, is what it is.

I guess one of the points I'm trying to make here is that I don't believe the operators are doing this solely to create pilots with character. They're doing it because if it weren't for the young pilot with the dream of flying, no one in their right mind would move to a town of less than 500 to make $17.20 an hour. As someone said before, by dangling the flying carrot they get away with underpaid labor and poor working conditions. I am surprised that the mainline union workers who are continually advocating for better working conditions think that the junior guys should suffer on their way up because they did.

You acknowledged, correctly, in your first post hiring is slow.

You haven't done a road trip and slept in your car, which reading a dozen threads would tell you to do.

With that observation in mind, and reading the above, exactly what are your expectations here?

Do you think you as a brand new CPL hold any power in the relationship whatsoever?

Lastly, who paid for your training, you or your parents? I am genuinely curious.

[BTD]

Bahahaha. More MCS.

[pilotidentity]

My advice for jw1 when you get your instructor job is to be the best instructor you can be, have genuine interest in your students and just be a good kind person in general. Always remember you are building your reputation, and one of your students could very well be in a position to hire you or recommend you for a desirable flying position in the future.

With regards to the road trip, I did one looking for my first job 35 years ago and it led to nothing in ways of a flying job. Looking back now I realize I didn’t have the outgoing personality I needed at that young age to make myself standout and get hired even for a ramp job. I ended up getting my first job up North right after the unsuccessful road trip through a friend I made while getting my commercial licence. As I gained life experience I became a very self confident person.

The road trip doesn’t work for everyone. I think if I had made that trip just a few years later with some more life experience under my belt I would have gotten a job as a rampy with some crap operator and my whole life would have been different ha ha! (And I would have told one old guy to go F himself when he tore up my resume in front of me ha ha). Good luck jw1.

[jw1]

I guess one of the points I'm trying to make here is that I don't believe the operators are doing this solely to create pilots with character. They're doing it because if it weren't for the young pilot with the dream of flying, no one in their right mind would move to a town of less than 500 to make $17.20 an hour. As someone said before, by dangling the flying carrot they get away with underpaid labor and poor working conditions. I am surprised that the mainline union workers who are continually advocating for better working conditions think that the junior guys should suffer on their way up because they did.

You acknowledged, correctly, in your first post hiring is slow.

You haven't done a road trip and slept in your car, which reading a dozen threads would tell you to do.

With that observation in mind, and reading the above, exactly what are your expectations here?

Do you think you as a brand new CPL hold any power in the relationship whatsoever?

Lastly, who paid for your training, you or your parents? I am genuinely curious.

Well I suppose you could say the government paid for most of it (For now). I'm about 35k in debt and the rest was covered by my own funds + about 6.5k in scholarships a year. That's why I am working in a completely unrelated role right now because I make about double what I would on ramp and I need those funds to cover for my instructors rating and student loans. Knowing what I know now I wish someone told me to do it privately and I would have graduated 2 years ago, but what can you do. 5.5 years in at this point for training that could be done in 2-3 years . Anyways, I took everyone's advice in consideration and came to a decision, I thank everyone for their input.

[rookiepilot]

You acknowledged, correctly, in your first post hiring is slow.

You haven't done a road trip and slept in your car, which reading a dozen threads would tell you to do.

With that observation in mind, and reading the above, exactly what are your expectations here?

Do you think you as a brand new CPL hold any power in the relationship whatsoever?

Lastly, who paid for your training, you or your parents? I am genuinely curious.

Well I suppose you could say the government paid for most of it (For now). I'm about 35k in debt and the rest was covered by my own funds + about 6.5k in scholarships a year. That's why I am working in a completely unrelated role right now because I make about double what I would on ramp and I need those funds to cover for my instructors rating and student loans. Knowing what I know now I wish someone told me to do it privately and I would have graduated 2 years ago, but what can you do. 5.5 years in at this point for training that could be done in 2-3 years . Anyways, I took everyone's advice in consideration and came to a decision, I thank everyone for their input.

I wish you the best. Sincerely.