25% Tariff on all non US made Autos.

[altiplano]

We should toss the US auto protectionism if the integrated sector is all over. The sooner the better.

I'm holding out to get one of the first run of Canadians built Toyota Hilux, hopefully with the 4D4 turbo-diesel. Cheaper, more capable, more reliable than Tacomas. Just bring in the same cars as in South America in the meantime. You can get some nice cars a helluva lot cheaper down there.

Pretty sure they don’t meet Canadian safety or emissions standards. By the time you redesign it to meet them, you’ve got a Tacoma anyways.

These safety and emission standard are the "US auto protectionism" laws I mention. They exist not for safety and the environment, but to discourage the import of cars from the rest of the world.

These vehicles are safe in Australia and Japan and Europe but not here? Because they have day time running lights and some obscure emission standard that reduces vehicle efficiency and burns more gas?

JDM trucks are running all around our roads safely when they get imported 17 years used anyway. Right hand drive too which itself is statistically in more accidents in this country. Might as well bring them in new with the steering wheel on the left.

Plus EPA diesel emissions standards are a joke and Canada only get our trucks that way because of the US market. Emissions equipped trucks burn more fuel while operating and burn more fuel to regen, exhausted recycling reduces the equipment life, SUBSTANTIALLY. Plus you need DEF, bottled in plastic, wrapped in cardboard, and shipped by trucks all around the country... There is no law in this country preventing individuals to remove it all from their trucks. It's looking like the EPA may even repeal that legislation anyway. It was written by the US automakers.

[altiplano]

with emission BS

Go walk around in Havana/Cuba if you'd like to see the effect of the 'emission BS'. The air is absolutely disgusting. Sometimes the rules make sense.

That's fallacy. A third world country trying to keep 80 year old cars on the road and people burning garbage to cook their food doesn't count. Go walk around Sydney or Tokyo, it's not an issue.

[altiplano]

The dairy & cheese quota was put in place to give Canadian farmers a chance to make a living & have a stable income.
I guess you could say go ahead & get rid of it & while we’re at it let foreign pilots fly Canadian aircraft & non Canadian airlines service Canada because heck they could do it cheaper.
I could probably save hundreds of dollars on my travels if they paid the crew less.
Just a differing view.

More fallacy. This isn't about individual farmers any more. Most of the dairy quota is held by a few corporate farming conglomerates.

Here's what independent farmers think about the quota:

https://youtu.be/qw9pUE7hcXs?si=i_JkOAJEEcA-I86c

NO OTHER COUNTRIES DO THIS.

Allowing labour and supply dumping in aviation is another story.

Countries have done it and it was a screw up not just for their own industries, but their economies and even national security. And so now - NO OTHER COUNTRIES DO THIS.

[BGH]

I didn’t look at the video & yes there are corporate farms with their finger in more than the dairy industry.
One could use Onex owning airlines as a similar example.

Daryl

[digits_]

with emission BS

Go walk around in Havana/Cuba if you'd like to see the effect of the 'emission BS'. The air is absolutely disgusting. Sometimes the rules make sense.

That's fallacy. A third world country trying to keep 80 year old cars on the road and people burning garbage to cook their food doesn't count. Go walk around Sydney or Tokyo, it's not an issue.

Yes and no. It's correct that they drive ancient cars, but the reason the new cars don't pollute as much is, IMO, mainly due to government legislation. Companies don't add more expensive parts to reduce pollution out of the goodness of their hearts.

[digits_]

The dairy & cheese quota was put in place to give Canadian farmers a chance to make a living & have a stable income.
I guess you could say go ahead & get rid of it & while we’re at it let foreign pilots fly Canadian aircraft & non Canadian airlines service Canada because heck they could do it cheaper.
I could probably save hundreds of dollars on my travels if they paid the crew less.
Just a differing view.

Daryl

I can somewhat get behind a minimum price for base products such as milk, but why limit cheese imports? If Canadian cheese isn't as popular as French cheeses, then don't be surprised people don't want them. That's a quality thing where quotas are completely artificial.

[altiplano]

I didn’t look at the video & yes there are corporate farms with their finger in more than the dairy industry.
One could use Onex owning airlines as a similar example.

Q. Who are we subsidizing with supply management?

Market Share of Dairy Processors in Canada

(Estimated based on milk processing capacity and market reports)

1. Saputo Inc. 33-35%
2. Lactalis Canada (Parmalat) - 25-30%
3. Agropur Cooperative 25-30%
4. Other smaller processors (Gay Lea Foods, Vitalus, regional dairies, etc.) - 10-15%


A. 3 large corporations in Ontario and Quebec.

[altiplano]

Go walk around in Havana/Cuba if you'd like to see the effect of the 'emission BS'. The air is absolutely disgusting. Sometimes the rules make sense.

That's fallacy. A third world country trying to keep 80 year old cars on the road and people burning garbage to cook their food doesn't count. Go walk around Sydney or Tokyo, it's not an issue.

Yes and no. It's correct that they drive ancient cars, but the reason the new cars don't pollute as much is, IMO, mainly due to government legislation. Companies don't add more expensive parts to reduce pollution out of the goodness of their hearts.

No. It's Yes.
Well maintained older cars with access to things like parts don't pollute as much either. Those things are cobbled together.

Go walk around Sydney or Tokyo or Aukland or any large Western city outside Canada/USA and tell me that those cars are inappropriate for the Canadian market.

They come here after 17 years anyway. Are you telling me that it's makes sense that I can get a 2008 Toyota Hilux and not a 2025 Hilux?

[digits_]

That's fallacy. A third world country trying to keep 80 year old cars on the road and people burning garbage to cook their food doesn't count. Go walk around Sydney or Tokyo, it's not an issue.

Yes and no. It's correct that they drive ancient cars, but the reason the new cars don't pollute as much is, IMO, mainly due to government legislation. Companies don't add more expensive parts to reduce pollution out of the goodness of their hearts.

No. It's Yes.
Well maintained older cars with access to things like parts don't pollute as much either. Those things are cobbled together.

Go walk around Sydney or Tokyo or Aukland or any large Western city outside Canada/USA and tell me that those cars are inappropriate for the Canadian market.

They come here after 17 years anyway. Are you telling me that it's makes sense that I can get a 2008 Toyota Hilux and not a 2025 Hilux?

You're right, that doesn't seem to make sense.

[fish4life]

The dairy & cheese quota was put in place to give Canadian farmers a chance to make a living & have a stable income.
I guess you could say go ahead & get rid of it & while we’re at it let foreign pilots fly Canadian aircraft & non Canadian airlines service Canada because heck they could do it cheaper.
I could probably save hundreds of dollars on my travels if they paid the crew less.
Just a differing view.

Daryl

It may have made sense when farms were small but now dairy farms are massive operations and a lot of them corporations.
Dairy farmers literally have to dump milk in the sewer/ ditch if their cows are producing well because they are over their quota. In what world is that beneficial to people.

[rookiepilot]

I think we should retaliate hard.

100% export tariffs on electricity, oil, critical minerals, and especially potash.

No trade deal with the USA will ever be trusted again.

They have disrespected our country. As an identity. Disrespected our troops! This isnt friendship. Lied about fentanyl.

Then long term, we structure new trade alliances with other nations — Asia — just as their oil production taps out. Build up our military, tidewater export capacity.

America is a gradually failing nation.

Short term pain for longer term stability is worth it. You should all agree.

Don’t start fights, but finish them.

[pelmet]

I think we should dismantle the milk marketing board so all Canadians benefit(except for the few benefitting from this) and give trump his win and we win as well. At the same time, we have a new cross-Canada pipeline approved very quickly and internal free trade approved quickly. That would prove that the one party that is saying how we can win together will have been right. But that would take Canadians deciding to stop screwing themselves over. Time for logic to override emotional over-reaction. Sadly, I don't expect that to happen.

[7ECA]

I think we should dismantle the milk marketing board so all Canadians benefit(except for the few benefitting from this) and give trump his win and we win as well. At the same time, we have a new cross-Canada pipeline approved very quickly and internal free trade approved quickly. That would prove that the one party that is saying how we can win together will have been right. But that would take Canadians deciding to stop screwing themselves over. Time for logic to override emotional over-reaction. Sadly, I don't expect that to happen.

So, destroy our domestic production/industry to appease a bully so he can have a "win"? Since when has appeasement of bullies ever worked out well for the bullied? What's to stop the US from then turning around and saying we need to remove protectionist measures on other agricultural products? How about stumpage fees/timber pricing vis-a-vis Crown Land leases? Pretty damned slippery slope there, all in the name of giving away a "win" but destroying our sovereignty.

As for this neo-con wet dream of a pipeline in every direction and a pump jack in every back yard, those projects take time to build. It's a bit like snapping your fingers and clapping twice and saying "we'll spool up nuclear generation across the nation with small scale reactors!" - nuclear plants take on average ten years to build, not unlike oil refineries...

Screwing ourselves over, has been a longstanding tradition from both the Grits and Tories as each party fawned over the Yanks and signed trade deals and other agreements that are now shown to be worth less than the paper they were written on.

[goldeneagle]

I didn’t look at the video & yes there are corporate farms with their finger in more than the dairy industry.
One could use Onex owning airlines as a similar example.

Q. Who are we subsidizing with supply management?

Market Share of Dairy Processors in Canada

(Estimated based on milk processing capacity and market reports)

1. Saputo Inc. 33-35%
2. Lactalis Canada (Parmalat) - 25-30%
3. Agropur Cooperative 25-30%
4. Other smaller processors (Gay Lea Foods, Vitalus, regional dairies, etc.) - 10-15%


A. 3 large corporations in Ontario and Quebec.

Those processors are not the ones being regulated, it's the farms they buy the milk from. Cant speak for out east, but out west most dairy farms are family owned and operated, and those are the folks being affected by supply management. 4 dairy farms within 50km of where I live, all owned and operated by a family that's been on that farm for 3 or more generations, and all sell the milk to Saputo thru their susidiaries out here.

[pelmet]

I think we should dismantle the milk marketing board so all Canadians benefit(except for the few benefitting from this) and give trump his win and we win as well. At the same time, we have a new cross-Canada pipeline approved very quickly and internal free trade approved quickly. That would prove that the one party that is saying how we can win together will have been right. But that would take Canadians deciding to stop screwing themselves over. Time for logic to override emotional over-reaction. Sadly, I don't expect that to happen.

So, destroy our domestic production/industry to appease a bully so he can have a "win"? Since when has appeasement of bullies ever worked out well for the bullied? What's to stop the US from then turning around and saying we need to remove protectionist measures on other agricultural products? How about stumpage fees/timber pricing vis-a-vis Crown Land leases? Pretty damned slippery slope there, all in the name of giving away a "win" but destroying our sovereignty.

As for this neo-con wet dream of a pipeline in every direction and a pump jack in every back yard, those projects take time to build. It's a bit like snapping your fingers and clapping twice and saying "we'll spool up nuclear generation across the nation with small scale reactors!" - nuclear plants take on average ten years to build, not unlike oil refineries...

Screwing ourselves over, has been a longstanding tradition from both the Grits and Tories as each party fawned over the Yanks and signed trade deals and other agreements that are now shown to be worth less than the paper they were written on.

A very typical attitude for a Canadian. Let the millions struggling to make ends meet continue to do so so that thousands can continue to artificially force them the transfer their money over(with extreme statement like the industry will be destroyed).

Then the idea of actually creating a ten year plan to make a massive percentage of our economy independents foreign threats is panned because it takes too long(with more stupid statements like a pumpjack in every back yard).

Then stupid thought process that the huge benefits we have gotten over the last 25 years from free trade was worthless, even though we are benefitting from even with the tariffs.

Folks, I mentioned in a previous post that emotion would override common sense among the majority of Canadians and this is a classic example. I fully expect it to continue. Intelligence and common sense are two very separate things. That is why see so many intelligent people vote to implement or keep in place so many stupid ideas.

What is the price that most people pay for that? A lower standard of living or lower quality of life. In this case, paying more for dairy products and having less access to certain desirable dairy products(foreign cheeses) while having lower quality in certain dairy products(butter).

But the millions working two or three jobs or highly taxed overtime can feel good knowing that the thousands in the dairy industry are enjoying the wealth transfer.

[goldeneagle]

I think we should dismantle the milk marketing board so all Canadians benefit(except for the few benefitting from this) and give trump his win and we win as well.

Hmm, why go after the dairy folks, instead, give the win on cabotage, it'll be a bigger win for consumers, let American airlines cream off the profitable routes.

but I get it, most folks here will view cabotage as the 'sacred cow', because it affect you directly, but at the same time you dont give a shit who gets thrown under the bus to save you a nickel.

[Tbayer2021]

I think we should dismantle the milk marketing board so all Canadians benefit(except for the few benefitting from this) and give trump his win and we win as well.

Hmm, why go after the dairy folks, instead, give the win on cabotage, it'll be a bigger win for consumers, let American airlines cream off the profitable routes.

but I get it, most folks here will view cabotage as the 'sacred cow', because it affect you directly, but at the same time you dont give a shit who gets thrown under the bus to save you a nickel.

I think I would be open to relaxing cabotage rules so long as we can do the same in the States.

[rookiepilot]

I think we should dismantle the milk marketing board so all Canadians benefit(except for the few benefitting from this) and give trump his win and we win as well.

Hmm, why go after the dairy folks, instead, give the win on cabotage, it'll be a bigger win for consumers, let American airlines cream off the profitable routes.

but I get it, most folks here will view cabotage as the 'sacred cow', because it affect you directly, but at the same time you dont give a shit who gets thrown under the bus to save you a nickel.

I was thinking do both. I know people in farming. Dairy farmers are rich. It’s vote buying plain and simple. Everyone knows this.

Telecom, too. It’s ridiculous we are stuck with Rogers and Bell.

Chinese EV’s are light years ahead of the ones here. Why are we protecting an American manufacturer whose CEO says we are a fake country?

If Canadian airlines are that good they shouldn’t need protection.

Unprofitable routes? Raise prices until they are. Or remove service.

Let the free market decide what is and what is not viable.

This is how we have ended up in this mess in the first place. A million government employees managing all these subsidies, quotas, price controls, free drug injection sites (looking at you , BC, Human rights commissions, all protecting their useless little empires. A million little empires.

I don’t believe in subsidies of any kind.

[pelmet]

I think we should dismantle the milk marketing board so all Canadians benefit(except for the few benefitting from this) and give trump his win and we win as well.

Hmm, why go after the dairy folks, instead, give the win on cabotage, it'll be a bigger win for consumers, let American airlines cream off the profitable routes.

but I get it, most folks here will view cabotage as the 'sacred cow', because it affect you directly, but at the same time you dont give a shit who gets thrown under the bus to save you a nickel.

Don't have an opinion one way or the other on cabotage but willing to listen to the arguments of both sides and then make a decision.

But one important thing to remember is that flying is an optional activity. Dairy items are a staple dietary item from birth to death, your entire life. People should not be forced to pay higher prices to a small percentage of society on this.

So separate argument. Perhaps an attempt to change subject or make argument in defence by hopping over to a totally separate argument. I get that you likely have friends in the industry which I suspect biases opinion(based on an earlier post) but should being a third generation at something automatically allow one to overcharge on a staple diet item and restrict food choice for 40 million people and be legally protected in doing this?

In addition, the US has made the dairy file an important item whether we like it or not, so it is something that may be enough to stop the trade war(and save thousands of jobs and billions of taxpayer dollars) while the cabotage thing is probably off their radar as i have never heard it mentioned, perhaps because each side has the same/similar rules.

[455tt]

Let the free market decide what is and what is not viable.

...

I don’t believe in subsidies of any kind.

So you would resoundingly reject in principle any and all subsidies to the oil and gas sector?

Such as the billions Canada has poured into the Trans Mountain Pipeline project, for example, estimated at 37 billion dollars. The project had failed in the private sector.

And what about all of the upcoming financial assistance the government has promised, that it says will assist workers and industries for the hit that would be caused by the tariffs, do you oppose all such assistance?

[rookiepilot]

Let the free market decide what is and what is not viable.

...

I don’t believe in subsidies of any kind.

So you would resoundingly reject in principle any and all subsidies to the oil and gas sector?

Such as the billions Canada has poured into the Trans Mountain Pipeline project, for example, estimated at 37 billion dollars. The project had failed in the private sector.

And what about all of the upcoming financial assistance the government has promised, that it says will assist workers and industries for the hit that would be caused by the tariffs, do you oppose all such assistance?

Yes. Every bit of it.

If we would stop subsidies to keep gas prices low — one almost all countries do — the energy sector could earn a return, EV’s would become viable without subsidies! For rich people’s cars! — and we would spend tax dollars on sensible things.

Its natural gas, not oil , thats the future, FWIW

[7ECA]

A very typical attitude for a Canadian. Let the millions struggling to make ends meet continue to do so so that thousands can continue to artificially force them the transfer their money over(with extreme statement like the industry will be destroyed).

Then the idea of actually creating a ten year plan to make a massive percentage of our economy independents foreign threats is panned because it takes too long(with more stupid statements like a pumpjack in every back yard).

Then stupid thought process that the huge benefits we have gotten over the last 25 years from free trade was worthless, even though we are benefitting from even with the tariffs.

Folks, I mentioned in a previous post that emotion would override common sense among the majority of Canadians and this is a classic example. I fully expect it to continue. Intelligence and common sense are two very separate things. That is why see so many intelligent people vote to implement or keep in place so many stupid ideas.

What is the price that most people pay for that? A lower standard of living or lower quality of life. In this case, paying more for dairy products and having less access to certain desirable dairy products(foreign cheeses) while having lower quality in certain dairy products(butter).

But the millions working two or three jobs or highly taxed overtime can feel good knowing that the thousands in the dairy industry are enjoying the wealth transfer.

How much extra are you paying per litre of milk, due to this "artificial[sic] force"? I'm seeing a wide variation in numbers, from apparently, $276 per family down to $76 per family (a family apparently being considered four people). Also, while the so-called farm-gate price is regulated by the "milk board" the retail price is not regulated and is affected by outside factors such as transportation, labour, etc.

This discussion reminds me of how farmers cried and moaned for years about the wheat board and how they'd be so much better off without it, operating on the free market. Guess what, now many of those same famers want the wheat board back in Canadian hands, because they're getting screwed without it. Can't have it both ways... but this is the same group that cries "western alienation" at the first hint of friction.

The argument that we need more pipelines to move product to market, is all well and good, but the world is moving on from oil whether Albertans like it or not. It's not a transition that will happen overnight, but it is happening. So building more monstrously expensive infrastructure projects like pipelines that will take a decade or longer to build, only to have them never recoup their investment is questionable at best. Or, do you want to nationalize more of these failing projects and saddle taxpayers with more debt, a la TMX?

The benefits from so-called free trade were not worthless, but they have been vastly overhyped. How much of our domestic manufacturing and production was decimated by NAFTA - simply so we could appease the Yanks? Our domestic automotive industry took a massive hit with factories shuttered and production moving South. Forestry and wood products were in the same boat, not to mention the disaster that has been the Softwood Lumber Agreement which took a huge chunk out of BC's forestry sector (and elsewhere such as the Maritimes). If the so-called benefits only benefit one party to the agreement, is it really beneficial for all sides?

How are we benefiting from free trade, even with tariffs? Simple question.

Emotion is not overriding common sense, because it makes no sense to appease a revanchist US administration that seeks to undermine our economy and our sovereignty. Giving Trump a "win" in one sector will not stop future tariffs or somehow prevent him from attempting to enact Manifest Destiny, it will simply be a sign of weakness and encourage him to demand more and more. He gets off on having weak willed people grovelling at his feet while his sycophantic underlings run around spreading abuse and vitriol at those who refuse to bend a knee to his tyranny.

What evidence do you have that our domestic dairy products are substandard in quality, compared to products from international markets?

[pelmet]

A very typical attitude for a Canadian. Let the millions struggling to make ends meet continue to do so so that thousands can continue to artificially force them the transfer their money over(with extreme statement like the industry will be destroyed).

Then the idea of actually creating a ten year plan to make a massive percentage of our economy independents foreign threats is panned because it takes too long(with more stupid statements like a pumpjack in every back yard).

Then stupid thought process that the huge benefits we have gotten over the last 25 years from free trade was worthless, even though we are benefitting from even with the tariffs.

Folks, I mentioned in a previous post that emotion would override common sense among the majority of Canadians and this is a classic example. I fully expect it to continue. Intelligence and common sense are two very separate things. That is why see so many intelligent people vote to implement or keep in place so many stupid ideas.

What is the price that most people pay for that? A lower standard of living or lower quality of life. In this case, paying more for dairy products and having less access to certain desirable dairy products(foreign cheeses) while having lower quality in certain dairy products(butter).

But the millions working two or three jobs or highly taxed overtime can feel good knowing that the thousands in the dairy industry are enjoying the wealth transfer.

What evidence do you have that our domestic dairy products are substandard in quality, compared to products from international markets?

https://canadiangrocer.com/buttergate-h ... ian-butter

Also note the more than 1.5 billion of subsidy in the article. And if Canadian cheese is second to none in quality, why do we have to restrict European cheese coming in.

[pelmet]

The argument that we need more pipelines to move product to market, is all well and good, but the world is moving on from oil whether Albertans like it or not. It's not a transition that will happen overnight, but it is happening. So building more monstrously expensive infrastructure projects like pipelines that will take a decade or longer to build, only to have them never recoup their investment is questionable at best. Or, do you want to nationalize more of these failing projects and saddle taxpayers with more debt, a la TMX?

Oil will be produce for decades top come. I get it....you believe in the green which future will cost trillions but more and more countries are rejecting it. I suspect that the car industry will settle on hybrids which means oil. They told us a decade ago that oil would be gone yet prices are high and Canada loses billions due to faulty thought process. We could be raking in massive amounts more money but foolish decisions based on lousy predictions and naive ideas have seriously harmed our economy, with the standard of living of the average canadian continuing to decline.

Even if a pipeline is built by private industry that never gets used, it is oil companies providing good construction jobs. And those pipes will be used.

[7ECA]

https://canadiangrocer.com/buttergate-h ... ian-butter

Also note the more than 1.5 billion of subsidy in the article. And if Canadian cheese is second to none in quality, why do we have to restrict European cheese coming in.

An article stating that butter became harder to spread, in the depths of the pandemic, is your evidence that ALL Canadian dairy products are substandard quality? You can do better than that.

As for farm/agriculture subsidies, they're nothing new and hardly controversial.

Restricting access to the Canadian market is little different than the EU restricting outside access to theirs. It's a protectionist stance, period. If you looked beyond the pure free market BS, you'd recognize that a country with a population of ~40 Million has a lot to lose vis-a-vis domestic market share if you opened the doors wide to products from other nations with significantly larger populations - and thus more producers of various products. But, if you want to eat plastic marketed as "cheese" ("American cheese") then fill your boots.

Oil will be produce for decades top come. I get it....you believe in the green which future will cost trillions but more and more countries are rejecting it. I suspect that the car industry will settle on hybrids which means oil. They told us a decade ago that oil would be gone yet prices are high and Canada loses billions due to faulty thought process. We could be raking in massive amounts more money but foolish decisions based on lousy predictions and naive ideas have seriously harmed our economy, with the standard of living of the average canadian continuing to decline.

Even if a pipeline is built by private industry that never gets used, it is oil companies providing good construction jobs. And those pipes will be used.

I have little doubt that oil will continue to be extracted, refined, and consumed for decades to come. But, consumption will decrease over time as alternative sources of energy continue to decrease in price. As I said, this transition is not going to happen overnight by any means, but as cleaner sources of energy become more affordable and more available oil use will decline. You say "we" could be making massive amounts of money exploiting non-renewable resources, but really you mean corporations would be making money - the average Canadian won't see a dime, and the government(s) see very little of that money as well. Subsidies to oil and gas companies are extremely problematic, and really we shouldn't be giving away our resources for pennies on the dollar to companies who will turn around and leave us as taxpayers holding the bag when bad things happen.

As for pipelines, again we need to come back to TMX. Original cost estimate was $7.4B, Trudeau bought it for $4.5B... final cost estimate of ~$35B. Apparently due to exceedingly low pipeline tolls we are subsidizing the oil industry to the tune of ~$19B a year. But, god forbid "we" increase the tolls to market rates to actually capitalize on our investment because then we would have to hear all about Alberta's supposed "national unity crisis" and how it's not fair that companies pay their fair share. Again, god forbid if the oil companies had to lower their dividends ever so slightly...