Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[PeakLeverage]

How long has that thug Claude been around??

[cdnavater]

Yeah the case is strong, time to flush it. CB will never be able to win it.

If you were part of the ACA MEC and you think that a common employer declaration was coming, you would likely want to intervene as an arbitrated seniority list is your worst nightmare

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Yeah the case is strong, time to flush it. CB will never be able to win it.

If you were part of the ACA MEC and you think that a common employer declaration was coming, you would likely want to intervene as an arbitrated seniority list is your worst nightmare

Lol...keep dreaming

ZERO CHANCE

[cdnavater]

Yeah the case is strong, time to flush it. CB will never be able to win it.

If you were part of the ACA MEC and you think that a common employer declaration was coming, you would likely want to intervene as an arbitrated seniority list is your worst nightmare

Lol...keep dreaming

ZERO CHANCE

Ok smart guy, you tell me why AC ALPA MEC would want intervening status in a Jazz ALPA unfair labour practice challenge, ie; what do you have to lose if Jazz ALPA proposal were instituted?
It was originally a four party discussion to attempt some kind of remedy and now your union has sought legal counsel to intervene, gee, I wonder what that means! Intervene means, they are not part of the ULP but they will be affected if they don’t!
Btw, just spitballing, I have no inside information but ask yourself why they feel the need to do this and I can come up with one reason! Maybe you have something I didn’t think of.

[crystalpizza]

Maybe there was after all some kind of seniority arrangement for the ex-Jazz pilots thrown on the table? Which obviously would result in numerous current AC pilots (OTS hires) adversely affected, hence ACA MEC freaking out. Just my wild guess.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Maybe there was after all some kind of seniority arrangement for the ex-Jazz pilots thrown on the table? Which obviously would result in numerous current AC pilots (OTS hires) adversely affected, hence ACA MEC freaking out. Just my wild guess.

That's my suspicion. ACA won't allow that, hence why they will intervene.

[goingnowherefast]

Just speculation.
JAZ MEC proposed a financial penalty paid by management to the affected pilots. Both management teams said hell no. So JAZ MEC proposed a seniority solution. ACA MEC doesn't want the list modified as it would harm the non-Jazz hires.

Here we are.

[cdnavater]

I didn’t consider any “seniority solution” for the affected Jazz pilots because non of them “benefit” all four parties!

“Over the past several months, as part of our work in processing our unfair labour practice complaint (ULP), the JAZ MEC developed a framework for resolution. That framework was comprehensive and designed to resolve all issues in the ULP. It also addressed the underlying systemic factors that gave rise to the complaint in the first place – providing a benefit to all four parties (Jazz, Air Canada, JAZ MEC and ACA MEC).”

It will all come out eventually but I would bet big on the fact the main solution is common employer declaration.

[flyingcanuck]

If you were part of the ACA MEC and you think that a common employer declaration was coming, you would likely want to intervene as an arbitrated seniority list is your worst nightmare

Lol...keep dreaming

ZERO CHANCE

Ok smart guy, you tell me why AC ALPA MEC would want intervening status in a Jazz ALPA unfair labour practice challenge, ie; what do you have to lose if Jazz ALPA proposal were instituted?
It was originally a four party discussion to attempt some kind of remedy and now your union has sought legal counsel to intervene, gee, I wonder what that means! Intervene means, they are not part of the ULP but they will be affected if they don’t!
Btw, just spitballing, I have no inside information but ask yourself why they feel the need to do this and I can come up with one reason! Maybe you have something I didn’t think of.

Makes sense ACA MEC wants to be involved, the affected jazz pilots are AC pilots now, whom they represent, and of course the rest of the pilots

[1759]

How long has that thug Claude been around??

He's been there WAY TOO LONG.

[sportingrifle]

I didn’t consider any “seniority solution” for the affected Jazz pilots because non of them “benefit” all four parties!

“Over the past several months, as part of our work in processing our unfair labour practice complaint (ULP), the JAZ MEC developed a framework for resolution. That framework was comprehensive and designed to resolve all issues in the ULP. It also addressed the underlying systemic factors that gave rise to the complaint in the first place – providing a benefit to all four parties (Jazz, Air Canada, JAZ MEC and ACA MEC).”

It will all come out eventually but I would bet big on the fact the main solution is common employer declaration.

The circumstances connecting Jazz to AC were far stronger back in the late ‘90’s when a previous common employer application failed. Short of political interference, I don’t see any hope of a common employer declaration happening now. Especially after the Jazz pilots signed off on the last MOU. ( Well played AC.) The company decides who they hire, the union is given no say in hiring. But the union owns the seniority list. The union isn’t going to compromise their seniority list to make ammends for a company HR issue.

When ACPA folded into ALPA, I repeatedly asked were we joining ALPA Intl. or ALPA Canada. The ALPA membership drivers went to great lengths to avoid directly answering the question. I was asking it because the current ALPA (C) governance structure is strikingly similar to the old CALPA governance structure that in part created the whole common employer mess 30 years ago. “Those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.”

[truedude]

I didn’t consider any “seniority solution” for the affected Jazz pilots because non of them “benefit” all four parties!

“Over the past several months, as part of our work in processing our unfair labour practice complaint (ULP), the JAZ MEC developed a framework for resolution. That framework was comprehensive and designed to resolve all issues in the ULP. It also addressed the underlying systemic factors that gave rise to the complaint in the first place – providing a benefit to all four parties (Jazz, Air Canada, JAZ MEC and ACA MEC).”

It will all come out eventually but I would bet big on the fact the main solution is common employer declaration.

The circumstances connecting Jazz to AC were far stronger back in the late ‘90’s when a previous common employer application failed. Short of political interference, I don’t see any hope of a common employer declaration happening now. Especially after the Jazz pilots signed off on the last MOU. ( Well played AC.) The company decides who they hire, the union is given no say in hiring. But the union owns the seniority list. The union isn’t going to compromise their seniority list to make ammends for a company HR issue.

When ACPA folded into ALPA, I repeatedly asked were we joining ALPA Intl. or ALPA Canada. The ALPA membership drivers went to great lengths to avoid directly answering the question. I was asking it because the current ALPA (C) governance structure is strikingly similar to the old CALPA governance structure that in part created the whole common employer mess 30 years ago. “Those who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.”

Laws and interpretation of those laws change overtime, as do the people making the rulings. Imagine where the industry might have been Canada if egos could have been set aside and Air Canada didnt get 30 years of playing both groups against each other. Will the next 30 years be no different? As you say, those ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Yeah the case is strong, time to flush it. CB will never be able to win it.

If you were part of the ACA MEC and you think that a common employer declaration was coming, you would likely want to intervene as an arbitrated seniority list is your worst nightmare

there is nothing filed for common employer. so it's not on the table.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Lol...keep dreaming

ZERO CHANCE

Ok smart guy, you tell me why AC ALPA MEC would want intervening status in a Jazz ALPA unfair labour practice challenge, ie; what do you have to lose if Jazz ALPA proposal were instituted?
It was originally a four party discussion to attempt some kind of remedy and now your union has sought legal counsel to intervene, gee, I wonder what that means! Intervene means, they are not part of the ULP but they will be affected if they don’t!
Btw, just spitballing, I have no inside information but ask yourself why they feel the need to do this and I can come up with one reason! Maybe you have something I didn’t think of.

Makes sense ACA MEC wants to be involved, the affected jazz pilots are AC pilots now, whom they represent, and of course the rest of the pilots

100% Correct, JAZZ threw down 3 offer.

my guess would be a 1 time payment without anything else
second option would be a reinstation of the seniority ( highly doubt it )
and third is probably a mix where every pilot affected would have a different pay progression anniversary wich wouldn't affect anyone else.

[SportingRifle.]

Ah, the legendary triumphs of ACPA! Truly an inspiration for every corporate overlord's vision board. Crafting an environment so divisive and concession-friendly—it's like they were auditioning for Corporate Heaven's Got Talent with my DB pension, it's a glorious non-indexed marvel—a real beacon of mediocrity. But hey, at least it’s better than whatever crumbs the junior pilots were thrown. Good luck, kids—hope you enjoy whatever’s left in the empty tin can of promises.

And that 10-year masterpiece? A slow-cooked delight of concessions and rock-bottom conditions—spiced with a sprinkle of 20% raises stretched thin over a decade. Genius, really. The pièce de résistance? Getting those concessions baked in anyway. Such artistry, it deserves a standing ovation. Or maybe just a slow, sarcastic clap.

Now, ALPA waltzes onto the stage, CALPA baggage in tow. History might be lining up for its greatest encore yet. Perhaps we should embrace ACPA 2.0 with open arms and *Make Air Canada Pilot Contracts Great Again!* Who’s designing the hats?

sportingrifle

[truedude]

Yeah the case is strong, time to flush it. CB will never be able to win it.

If you were part of the ACA MEC and you think that a common employer declaration was coming, you would likely want to intervene as an arbitrated seniority list is your worst nightmare

there is nothing filed for common employer. so it's not on the table.

Since what has actually been filed isnt public knowledge, you either have inside information, or are guessing.

[Man_in_the_sky]

If you were part of the ACA MEC and you think that a common employer declaration was coming, you would likely want to intervene as an arbitrated seniority list is your worst nightmare

there is nothing filed for common employer. so it's not on the table.

Since what has actually been filed isnt public knowledge, you either have inside information, or are guessing.

Find it file somewhere and prove me wrong. Otherwise it's not filed.

[truedude]

there is nothing filed for common employer. so it's not on the table.

Since what has actually been filed isnt public knowledge, you either have inside information, or are guessing.

Find it file somewhere and prove me wrong. Otherwise it's not filed.

What was actually filed with the CIRB won't be public knowledge until after a resolution has been reached. Until then exactly what was filed is privileged information. So I can't prove you wrong. Just as you can't say for sure it wasn't part of the CIRB application. The only way you would know one way or another right now, is if you have access to privileged information.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I think the Jazz pilots really shot themselves in the foot with this grievance. 60% flow was never attainable, they knew it, the Jazz MEC knew it, and Air Canada knew it. Even at 30%, do that many Jazz pilots even qualify for a job at AC without 2000 hours and an ATPL? Jazz and the Jazz MEC are going to have a really tough time showing how they were short-changed, when the original agreement wasn't even possible in the first place.

[truedude]

I think the Jazz pilots really shot themselves in the foot with this grievance. 60% flow was never attainable, they knew it, the Jazz MEC knew it, and Air Canada knew it. Even at 30%, do that many Jazz pilots even qualify for a job at AC without 2000 hours and an ATPL? Jazz and the Jazz MEC are going to have a really tough time showing how they were short-changed, when the original agreement wasn't even possible in the first place.

Air Canada signed it, and approved it. Are you saying they arent held to account for something that you indicate everyone knew wasn't obtainable. Thats just dumb. AC signed it and went to great lengths to assure everyone they would follow it. Hiring and crewing is not something pilots are responsible for. A contract was signed with the pilots, that the pilots had every expectation that it would be followed.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I think the Jazz pilots really shot themselves in the foot with this grievance. 60% flow was never attainable, they knew it, the Jazz MEC knew it, and Air Canada knew it. Even at 30%, do that many Jazz pilots even qualify for a job at AC without 2000 hours and an ATPL? Jazz and the Jazz MEC are going to have a really tough time showing how they were short-changed, when the original agreement wasn't even possible in the first place.

Air Canada signed it, and approved it. Are you saying they arent held to account for something that you indicate everyone knew wasn't obtainable. Thats just dumb. AC signed it and went to great lengths to assure everyone they would follow it. Hiring and crewing is not something pilots are responsible for. A contract was signed with the pilots, that the pilots had every expectation that it would be followed.

You have it backwards. Why would Jazz agree to something they knew they could never fulfill? They hoodwinked their own pilots. It benefitted them in the short term, because it got new hires through the doors in droves for the garbage wages, willing to sell their souls for the promise of "flow to AC." Meanwhile more than half of them don't even have their ATPL's.

Jazz was never going to let that many pilots flow through. It would have crippled their operation.

To answer your question, no. I don't think anyone will be held to account with this fruitless endeavour. It will drag on and on until nobody cares anymore, and disappear into the sunset.

[truedude]

I think the Jazz pilots really shot themselves in the foot with this grievance. 60% flow was never attainable, they knew it, the Jazz MEC knew it, and Air Canada knew it. Even at 30%, do that many Jazz pilots even qualify for a job at AC without 2000 hours and an ATPL? Jazz and the Jazz MEC are going to have a really tough time showing how they were short-changed, when the original agreement wasn't even possible in the first place.

Air Canada signed it, and approved it. Are you saying they arent held to account for something that you indicate everyone knew wasn't obtainable. Thats just dumb. AC signed it and went to great lengths to assure everyone they would follow it. Hiring and crewing is not something pilots are responsible for. A contract was signed with the pilots, that the pilots had every expectation that it would be followed.

You have it backwards. Why would Jazz agree to something they knew they could never fulfill? They hoodwinked their own pilots. It benefitted them in the short term, because it got new hires through the doors in droves for the garbage wages, willing to sell their souls for the promise of "flow to AC." Meanwhile more than half of them don't even have their ATPL's.

Jazz was never going to let that many pilots flow through. It would have crippled their operation.

To answer your question, no. I don't think anyone will be held to account with this fruitless endeavour. It will drag on and on until nobody cares anymore, and disappear into the sunset.

Disagree. Getting to this point with the CIRB is no small feat. Something will come. Which is why ACA is lawyering up. It wont dissappear. And it wasn't Jazz that stopped the flow. It was Air Canada that stopped it. The same ones that signed it. And they could have kept it going, it would have just required them to pay more sooner. Instead they didnt, and lost a bunch to Porter and Westjet.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Based on what? How can you be so sure that it wasn't Jazz who was so desperate to hang onto pilots to keep the operation afloat? AC has shown time and time again that they don't care about Jazz or their staffing issues. They'd have no problem taking all the pilots they could from Jazz, leaving them to staff the mess left behind. They've already shown they have no problem seeking alternative providers (PAL) when Jazz can't keep their head above water.

AC ALPA is seeking intervention because it's likely that Jazz MEC was trying to propose something to do with the AC pilot seniority list. Pretty standard procedure to protect their due paying membership's seniority list.

[cdnavater]

Based on what? How can you be so sure that it wasn't Jazz who was so desperate to hang onto pilots to keep the operation afloat? AC has shown time and time again that they don't care about Jazz or their staffing issues. They'd have no problem taking all the pilots they could from Jazz, leaving them to staff the mess left behind. They've already shown they have no problem seeking alternative providers (PAL) when Jazz can't keep their head above water.

AC ALPA is seeking intervention because it's likely that Jazz MEC was trying to propose something to do with the AC pilot seniority list. Pretty standard procedure to protect their due paying membership's seniority list.

Typical ex Jazz pilots!
Frankly who stopped the flow is irrelevant because it wasn’t the Jazz pilots who did it, the corporations who AGREED to the terms did it, whether they agreed together or Jazz went to AC begging doesn’t matter!
The other part of the CIRB challenge, is that AC interfered with our collective bargaining, and yes we agreed together the last LOU but CR made sure that it was without precedence and the challenge was filed the same day. AC had no right as a third party to not accept our freely negotiated agreement and then present us with a lesser agreement. They pay the bills and if they had a problem with what Jazz was offering, they should have stepped in before Jazz and Jazz pilots had a tentative agreement in place!
Next, PAL is also a violation of what was bargained in good faith, the use the fact Jazz couldn’t fulfill their obligations when AC created the environment in which we couldn’t fulfill our obligations is a bit disingenuous and outright plain dirty!
AC ALPA is seeking intervener status because they realize the possibility of the challenge placing Jazz pilots on your seniority list and guess what, your language about common employer BOTL won’t stand up because it is contradicting labour law regarding merged list!
This won’t die no matter how you close your eyes and hope it does!

[Flyboy736]

I think the Jazz pilots really shot themselves in the foot with this grievance. 60% flow was never attainable, they knew it, the Jazz MEC knew it, and Air Canada knew it. Even at 30%, do that many Jazz pilots even qualify for a job at AC without 2000 hours and an ATPL? Jazz and the Jazz MEC are going to have a really tough time showing how they were short-changed, when the original agreement wasn't even possible in the first place.

When the agreement was signed for 60% flow it was 2019 and all parties thought it was possible because there was only 200-600 guys flowing to AC a year. The first flow violation had 1000 guys over a rolling 12 month period and Jazz was getting zero new hires at the same time because for 9 entire months they paid 50% less starting wage than Porter on the Q400.