Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[Man_in_the_sky]

This is all so sad.

Jazz gave away their biggest hammer -> job action.

Job action is the core of union strength & leverage.

You sign a 20 yrs deal which is absolutely insane. You gave away your greatest tool, possibly forever.

Now you are relying on lawyers, who aren't even unionized themselves generally, as your only hope.

Lawyers will never you get a great deal. They will give you the scraps left over after they pay themselves handsomely.

And set themselves up for the next round, to then get paid more in the future.

In all honesty, this is a huge disaster in terms of union strategy.

There weren't a lot of good options after ACPA gave up the tier 2 exclusivity clause for nothing in return. Air Canada managment was quick to start parting us out to the lowest bidder, to witch there was at the time and endless supply of pilots prepared to do the flying for cheaper and cheaper, led by Encore.

And the lawyers arent doing this work for a % of the outcome. And the CIRB has a lot of power should they decide AC acted inappropriately. But the current state of Jazz can all be traced back to ACPA giving up the tier 2 exclusivity.

Blaming someone's else union for your contract ?

Jazz pilots voted for a B scale, they don't have to look far to understand they did this to themself.

but back to those 285 pilots. i really hope they get well compensated. nothing short of a 6 digit settlement

[truedude]

This is all so sad.

Jazz gave away their biggest hammer -> job action.

Job action is the core of union strength & leverage.

You sign a 20 yrs deal which is absolutely insane. You gave away your greatest tool, possibly forever.

Now you are relying on lawyers, who aren't even unionized themselves generally, as your only hope.

Lawyers will never you get a great deal. They will give you the scraps left over after they pay themselves handsomely.

And set themselves up for the next round, to then get paid more in the future.

In all honesty, this is a huge disaster in terms of union strategy.

There weren't a lot of good options after ACPA gave up the tier 2 exclusivity clause for nothing in return. Air Canada managment was quick to start parting us out to the lowest bidder, to witch there was at the time and endless supply of pilots prepared to do the flying for cheaper and cheaper, led by Encore.

And the lawyers arent doing this work for a % of the outcome. And the CIRB has a lot of power should they decide AC acted inappropriately. But the current state of Jazz can all be traced back to ACPA giving up the tier 2 exclusivity.

Blaming someone's else union for your contract ?

Jazz pilots voted for a B scale, they don't have to look far to understand they did this to themself.

but back to those 285 pilots. i really hope they get well compensated. nothing short of a 6 digit settlement

Yes, because it was that, or be told we would be reduced slowly to zero airplanes. Wasn't much of an option really. And that B scale is gone.

[Nick678]

This is just sad.

Almost as sad as signing a 17 yrs deal and then expecting serious gains after the fact.

So, to you, the genius that you, are a 42% increase to top Captain wages and company paid benefits is not serious gains.
That said is apparently what was rejected by AC, what I ended up with was a 31% increase in net pay, this is part of the CIRB complaint.
The 20 year deal to be clear was designed to get rid of the crap competition that had dragged us down after AC pilots removed the scope protection in their contract that only allowed Jazz as tier 2. That was the catalyst for driving down regional pay because before that, Jazz pilots were the highest paid regional in the entire segment.
So, of course I like to poke the astronauts and get them going, you want to get an AC pilot riled up, talk about Jazz pilots getting a number on their list or paint Express on the side of a 37!

It is true you were the highest paid regional.

What's wild is now you are the lowest and locked into a 20 yrs deal. Then you're hoping for more gains with no real leverage besides a botched flow agreement.

It's sad

Botched flow, violation of express exclusivity, and meddling in contract negots is pretty firm ground to stand on. Sad that AC screwed jazz so hard. Hopefully AC gets roasted for violations but
I don’t have faith that the Jazz MEC will fix anything. Maybe Claude will get new boat house out of this

[CPU2000]

Reduced to zero airplanes...lol

You failed to call their bluff. You capitulated and are now looking for scraps.

Good luck.

[PeakLeverage]

What difference does the rest of the world make? This is the Canadian reality

Lol...I would stick to North American legacy carriers and their strategies. They got the best contracts in the world.

Flying CRJs at mainline with terrible FO wages & working conditions isn't one of them

[cdnavater]

At the end of the day, even if AC dictated the offer to the penny of every year/position. You guys voted for it and now you complain? And in the same tread, you’re trying to sell us that a 17 years contract was a good idea?

Come on.

No a 17 year agreement was not a good idea. But to the senior pilots, it provided stability by guaranteeing that Jazz would be the exclusive regional carrier, and for the younger group, AC guaranteed that 60% of it's new hires would come from Jazz ensuring a proper flow to mainline so you can see why it passed the vote. Both of these promises were almost immediately ignored by the AC executive suite once that 17 year contract was signed. Air Canada really should face consequences for those blatant violations.

Provided stability at the expenses of the next B scale, no upgrades and more concessions, but that's another story.

This tread is about how the 285 concerned pilots were affected and will be compensated, noone else.

Dude! The B scale was Sky Regional and GGN, all who had no problem doing the same job for less, the Jazz so called B scale(no longer exists) matched them!
As for the upgrade, you have no clue what you are talking about, the 2015 contract(10 years) with PML 1.0 is why 10 year FOs were finally able to upgrade. I’m not joking, I was 10 years before I could hold left seat on any equipment at any base, now we have open spots in the left seat that any brave soul with an ATPL could bid on day 1.
It’s a THREAD FFS and all Jazz pilots have been harmed by ACs actions, so ALL Jazz pilots will be compensated!

[cdnavater]

Reduced to zero airplanes...lol

You failed to call their bluff. You capitulated and are now looking for scraps.

Good luck.

What Bluff, I know for a fact based on someone in the room that the Skywest CRJ 900(5 of them) were going to GGN, they were already assigned to them and our union and the GGN union worked together to prevent that. Yes, if not for Claude and some guarantees, that would have been the literal final nail in the Jazz coffin! DOH for GGN pilots was a small price for Jazz pilots to pay for this!
That is a fact!

[cdnavater]

This is all so sad.

Jazz gave away their biggest hammer -> job action.

Job action is the core of union strength & leverage.

You sign a 20 yrs deal which is absolutely insane. You gave away your greatest tool, possibly forever.

Now you are relying on lawyers, who aren't even unionized themselves generally, as your only hope.

Lawyers will never you get a great deal. They will give you the scraps left over after they pay themselves handsomely.

And set themselves up for the next round, to then get paid more in the future.

In all honesty, this is a huge disaster in terms of union strategy.

Let’s be 100% clear, AC pilots gave away our leverage! Jazz pilots didn’t ever negotiate scope in the contract because AC pilots had 100% protection from anyone ever doing the work we were doing! Imagine that, it was a huge betrayal of your biggest partner, seems familiar!
Management has played us off one another for decades and AC pilots saw a chance to screw us for past issues and they took it, here we are today arguing again!
You know common employer and a merged list would take that tool away from them and give us one voice but god forbid any Jazz pilots saw should get anything but BOTL freaks them out, digs them in and causes lawyers to get involved.
Second thing to unpack, we were 3 year in to our first 10 year agreement and signed a 10 year extension with openers and some mandatory inflation adjustments. I know I’m splitting hairs and have said we had a 20 year deal but it was realistically 17 years but a total of 20 years of no strike, the reality of that is we had no strike leverage anyway, AC had insulated themselves from any potential job action by us, Calin. Literally said, I will never be in this position again after the 2010 near walkout!
The strategy has removed SR and GGN and gave me a 31% increase in take home pay last year, which has been discussed here about the interference from AC and what should have been a unverified 42% increase! I’d say the strategy has worked so far, let’s see what the CIRB nets us and then decide on whether it was a success or failure!

[ShillBill]

This is all so sad.

Jazz gave away their biggest hammer -> job action.

Job action is the core of union strength & leverage.

You sign a 20 yrs deal which is absolutely insane. You gave away your greatest tool, possibly forever.

Now you are relying on lawyers, who aren't even unionized themselves generally, as your only hope.

Lawyers will never you get a great deal. They will give you the scraps left over after they pay themselves handsomely.

And set themselves up for the next round, to then get paid more in the future.

In all honesty, this is a huge disaster in terms of union strategy.

Let’s be 100% clear, AC pilots gave away our leverage! Jazz pilots didn’t ever negotiate scope in the contract because AC pilots had 100% protection from anyone ever doing the work we were doing! Imagine that, it was a huge betrayal of your biggest partner, seems familiar!
Management has played us off one another for decades and AC pilots saw a chance to screw us for past issues and they took it, here we are today arguing again!
You know common employer and a merged list would take that tool away from them and give us one voice but god forbid any Jazz pilots saw should get anything but BOTL freaks them out, digs them in and causes lawyers to get involved.
Second thing to unpack, we were 3 year in to our first 10 year agreement and signed a 10 year extension with openers and some mandatory inflation adjustments. I know I’m splitting hairs and have said we had a 20 year deal but it was realistically 17 years but a total of 20 years of no strike, the reality of that is we had no strike leverage anyway, AC had insulated themselves from any potential job action by us, Calin. Literally said, I will never be in this position again after the 2010 near walkout!
The strategy has removed SR and GGN and gave me a 31% increase in take home pay last year, which has been discussed here about the interference from AC and what should have been a unverified 42% increase! I’d say the strategy has worked so far, let’s see what the CIRB nets us and then decide on whether it was a success or failure!

Imagine signing a 17 yrs deal during a historic pilot shortage. The industry literally can't find pilots to replace an operation the size of Jazz.

Look at the geniuses at Encore. Now the company has temporary foreign worker approval. Their dumb asses thought Encore was going to shut down too.

[truedude]

This is all so sad.

Jazz gave away their biggest hammer -> job action.

Job action is the core of union strength & leverage.

You sign a 20 yrs deal which is absolutely insane. You gave away your greatest tool, possibly forever.

Now you are relying on lawyers, who aren't even unionized themselves generally, as your only hope.

Lawyers will never you get a great deal. They will give you the scraps left over after they pay themselves handsomely.

And set themselves up for the next round, to then get paid more in the future.

In all honesty, this is a huge disaster in terms of union strategy.

Let’s be 100% clear, AC pilots gave away our leverage! Jazz pilots didn’t ever negotiate scope in the contract because AC pilots had 100% protection from anyone ever doing the work we were doing! Imagine that, it was a huge betrayal of your biggest partner, seems familiar!
Management has played us off one another for decades and AC pilots saw a chance to screw us for past issues and they took it, here we are today arguing again!
You know common employer and a merged list would take that tool away from them and give us one voice but god forbid any Jazz pilots saw should get anything but BOTL freaks them out, digs them in and causes lawyers to get involved.
Second thing to unpack, we were 3 year in to our first 10 year agreement and signed a 10 year extension with openers and some mandatory inflation adjustments. I know I’m splitting hairs and have said we had a 20 year deal but it was realistically 17 years but a total of 20 years of no strike, the reality of that is we had no strike leverage anyway, AC had insulated themselves from any potential job action by us, Calin. Literally said, I will never be in this position again after the 2010 near walkout!
The strategy has removed SR and GGN and gave me a 31% increase in take home pay last year, which has been discussed here about the interference from AC and what should have been a unverified 42% increase! I’d say the strategy has worked so far, let’s see what the CIRB nets us and then decide on whether it was a success or failure!

Imagine signing a 17 yrs deal during a historic pilot shortage. The industry literally can't find pilots to replace an operation the size of Jazz.

Look at the geniuses at Encore. Now the company has temporary foreign worker approval. Their dumb asses thought Encore was going to shut down too.

When that 17 year deal was made, there wasn't a pilot shortage yet. We were filling 2 to 3 ground schools a month, and running twice the flying we have today. Encore was running their 50 Qs, and GGN and Sky were still having no issue finding pilots. The pilot shortage only truly began to show up in a way that impacted jazz after covid.

And given that convid hit less than a year after that 17 year deal was signed, AC may have decided another regional carrier was the future instead of Jazz. We just had the longest contract at thr time.

[FelixGustof]

Jazz pilots:

Y'all got played

You were on a 10 yrs contract then decided for 10 more...with a well documented and quantified pilot shortage

LMAO

[cdnavater]

Jazz pilots:

Y'all got played

You were on a 10 yrs contract then decided for 10 more...with a well documented and quantified pilot shortage

LMAO

Piss off, you’re a fu cken loser that just got out of high school and can’t fend for yourself, imagine being such a big loser you have to comment on a professional aviation board when you’re not even in the industry. Your daddy the union leader must be so proud!
I was fighting for better wages before you were swimming around your daddy’s testies, so until you do something with your life that counts, your opinion isn’t worth the bandwidth used to respond to your ill informed ramblings!

[cdnavater]

This is all so sad.

Jazz gave away their biggest hammer -> job action.

Job action is the core of union strength & leverage.

You sign a 20 yrs deal which is absolutely insane. You gave away your greatest tool, possibly forever.

Now you are relying on lawyers, who aren't even unionized themselves generally, as your only hope.

Lawyers will never you get a great deal. They will give you the scraps left over after they pay themselves handsomely.

And set themselves up for the next round, to then get paid more in the future.

In all honesty, this is a huge disaster in terms of union strategy.

Let’s be 100% clear, AC pilots gave away our leverage! Jazz pilots didn’t ever negotiate scope in the contract because AC pilots had 100% protection from anyone ever doing the work we were doing! Imagine that, it was a huge betrayal of your biggest partner, seems familiar!
Management has played us off one another for decades and AC pilots saw a chance to screw us for past issues and they took it, here we are today arguing again!
You know common employer and a merged list would take that tool away from them and give us one voice but god forbid any Jazz pilots saw should get anything but BOTL freaks them out, digs them in and causes lawyers to get involved.
Second thing to unpack, we were 3 year in to our first 10 year agreement and signed a 10 year extension with openers and some mandatory inflation adjustments. I know I’m splitting hairs and have said we had a 20 year deal but it was realistically 17 years but a total of 20 years of no strike, the reality of that is we had no strike leverage anyway, AC had insulated themselves from any potential job action by us, Calin. Literally said, I will never be in this position again after the 2010 near walkout!
The strategy has removed SR and GGN and gave me a 31% increase in take home pay last year, which has been discussed here about the interference from AC and what should have been a unverified 42% increase! I’d say the strategy has worked so far, let’s see what the CIRB nets us and then decide on whether it was a success or failure!

Imagine signing a 17 yrs deal during a historic pilot shortage. The industry literally can't find pilots to replace an operation the size of Jazz.

Look at the geniuses at Encore. Now the company has temporary foreign worker approval. Their dumb asses thought Encore was going to shut down too.

Hey Shill, tell us where you work and what you have done to make the profession better? Otherwise STFU!

[737Drver]

Can someone name:

1) any other major airline that flies regional jets

2) a labour group that signs a 17 years deal

[cdnavater]

Can someone name:

1) any other major airline that flies regional jets

2) a labour group that signs a 17 years deal

Can you name another major airline who’s management stepped in and dictated the wages they would pay for a completely separate pilot group?

[Man_in_the_sky]

No a 17 year agreement was not a good idea. But to the senior pilots, it provided stability by guaranteeing that Jazz would be the exclusive regional carrier, and for the younger group, AC guaranteed that 60% of it's new hires would come from Jazz ensuring a proper flow to mainline so you can see why it passed the vote. Both of these promises were almost immediately ignored by the AC executive suite once that 17 year contract was signed. Air Canada really should face consequences for those blatant violations.

Provided stability at the expenses of the next B scale, no upgrades and more concessions, but that's another story.

This tread is about how the 285 concerned pilots were affected and will be compensated, noone else.

Dude! The B scale was Sky Regional and GGN, all who had no problem doing the same job for less, the Jazz so called B scale(no longer exists) matched them!
As for the upgrade, you have no clue what you are talking about, the 2015 contract(10 years) with PML 1.0 is why 10 year FOs were finally able to upgrade. I’m not joking, I was 10 years before I could hold left seat on any equipment at any base, now we have open spots in the left seat that any brave soul with an ATPL could bid on day 1.
It’s a THREAD FFS and all Jazz pilots have been harmed by ACs actions, so ALL Jazz pilots will be compensated!

There’s 285 person concerned for the ULP claim. Not 1500.

[truedude]

Provided stability at the expenses of the next B scale, no upgrades and more concessions, but that's another story.

This tread is about how the 285 concerned pilots were affected and will be compensated, noone else.

Dude! The B scale was Sky Regional and GGN, all who had no problem doing the same job for less, the Jazz so called B scale(no longer exists) matched them!
As for the upgrade, you have no clue what you are talking about, the 2015 contract(10 years) with PML 1.0 is why 10 year FOs were finally able to upgrade. I’m not joking, I was 10 years before I could hold left seat on any equipment at any base, now we have open spots in the left seat that any brave soul with an ATPL could bid on day 1.
It’s a THREAD FFS and all Jazz pilots have been harmed by ACs actions, so ALL Jazz pilots will be compensated!

There’s 285 person concerned for the ULP claim. Not 1500.

Wrong! The ULP is about all Jazz pilots. The scope of the filing is much larger than the 285 that AC failed to hire as per agreed to flow, which they signed. The ULP is about flow, exclusivity on the CPA and ACs interference in contract negotiations, which likely rises to the threshold of common employer given the very direct involvement AC managment had in the final agreement.

[truedude]

Can someone name:

1) any other major airline that flies regional jets

2) a labour group that signs a 17 years deal

To answer your first question, the answer is Air Canada. The original Rjs were at Air Canada.

[cdnavater]

Provided stability at the expenses of the next B scale, no upgrades and more concessions, but that's another story.

This tread is about how the 285 concerned pilots were affected and will be compensated, noone else.

Dude! The B scale was Sky Regional and GGN, all who had no problem doing the same job for less, the Jazz so called B scale(no longer exists) matched them!
As for the upgrade, you have no clue what you are talking about, the 2015 contract(10 years) with PML 1.0 is why 10 year FOs were finally able to upgrade. I’m not joking, I was 10 years before I could hold left seat on any equipment at any base, now we have open spots in the left seat that any brave soul with an ATPL could bid on day 1.
It’s a THREAD FFS and all Jazz pilots have been harmed by ACs actions, so ALL Jazz pilots will be compensated!

There’s 285 person concerned for the ULP claim. Not 1500.

Good thing you don’t have any say in it, I do look forward to my number moving your number down the list, based on your maturity level, I’m guessing your pretty low on the list and understandably afraid of what’s coming your way! I don’t blame you for lashing out but you will see very soon how wrong you are! Enjoy what little seniority you still have while you can!

[Man_in_the_sky]

Dude! The B scale was Sky Regional and GGN, all who had no problem doing the same job for less, the Jazz so called B scale(no longer exists) matched them!
As for the upgrade, you have no clue what you are talking about, the 2015 contract(10 years) with PML 1.0 is why 10 year FOs were finally able to upgrade. I’m not joking, I was 10 years before I could hold left seat on any equipment at any base, now we have open spots in the left seat that any brave soul with an ATPL could bid on day 1.
It’s a THREAD FFS and all Jazz pilots have been harmed by ACs actions, so ALL Jazz pilots will be compensated!

There’s 285 person concerned for the ULP claim. Not 1500.

Good thing you don’t have any say in it, I do look forward to my number moving your number down the list, based on your maturity level, I’m guessing your pretty low on the list and understandably afraid of what’s coming your way! I don’t blame you for lashing out but you will see very soon how wrong you are! Enjoy what little seniority you still have while you can!

Ok

[Man_in_the_sky]

Dude! The B scale was Sky Regional and GGN, all who had no problem doing the same job for less, the Jazz so called B scale(no longer exists) matched them!
As for the upgrade, you have no clue what you are talking about, the 2015 contract(10 years) with PML 1.0 is why 10 year FOs were finally able to upgrade. I’m not joking, I was 10 years before I could hold left seat on any equipment at any base, now we have open spots in the left seat that any brave soul with an ATPL could bid on day 1.
It’s a THREAD FFS and all Jazz pilots have been harmed by ACs actions, so ALL Jazz pilots will be compensated!

There’s 285 person concerned for the ULP claim. Not 1500.

Good thing you don’t have any say in it, I do look forward to my number moving your number down the list, based on your maturity level, I’m guessing your pretty low on the list and understandably afraid of what’s coming your way! I don’t blame you for lashing out but you will see very soon how wrong you are! Enjoy what little seniority you still have while you can!

I’m listening you talk and assume you were on property during the PML. You decided to stay in the regional. There is no scenario where you will by-pass every other pilot who made the jump when you decided to stay.

But keep hoping! Life is sad when you’re done dreaming.

[truedude]

There’s 285 person concerned for the ULP claim. Not 1500.

Good thing you don’t have any say in it, I do look forward to my number moving your number down the list, based on your maturity level, I’m guessing your pretty low on the list and understandably afraid of what’s coming your way! I don’t blame you for lashing out but you will see very soon how wrong you are! Enjoy what little seniority you still have while you can!

I’m listening you talk and assume you were on property during the PML. You decided to stay in the regional. There is no scenario where you will by-pass every other pilot who made the jump when you decided to stay.

But keep hoping! Life is sad when you’re done dreaming.

You have no idea how this will turn out. And neither do I. But your argument likely wouldn't carry much weight in this case. Because what the CIRB decides will have nothing to do with career decisions other people made. It will be made simply on the facts of this case.

If by some chance Jazz pilots succeeded in winning common employer (if that is even part of the filing), then the seniority fight truly begins. And that would be an entirely separate issue.

[cdnavater]

Good thing you don’t have any say in it, I do look forward to my number moving your number down the list, based on your maturity level, I’m guessing your pretty low on the list and understandably afraid of what’s coming your way! I don’t blame you for lashing out but you will see very soon how wrong you are! Enjoy what little seniority you still have while you can!

I’m listening you talk and assume you were on property during the PML. You decided to stay in the regional. There is no scenario where you will by-pass every other pilot who made the jump when you decided to stay.

But keep hoping! Life is sad when you’re done dreaming.

You have no idea how this will turn out. And neither do I. But your argument likely wouldn't carry much weight in this case. Because what the CIRB decides will have nothing to do with career decisions other people made. It will be made simply on the facts of this case.

If by some chance Jazz pilots succeeded in winning common employer (if that is even part of the filing), then the seniority fight truly begins. And that would be an entirely separate issue.

Which would be decided by an arbitrator because there is zero chance it would be decided through a negotiation.
The pilots that left Sunwing and went to WJ didn’t benefit from that choice

[Man_in_the_sky]

I’m listening you talk and assume you were on property during the PML. You decided to stay in the regional. There is no scenario where you will by-pass every other pilot who made the jump when you decided to stay.

But keep hoping! Life is sad when you’re done dreaming.

You have no idea how this will turn out. And neither do I. But your argument likely wouldn't carry much weight in this case. Because what the CIRB decides will have nothing to do with career decisions other people made. It will be made simply on the facts of this case.

If by some chance Jazz pilots succeeded in winning common employer (if that is even part of the filing), then the seniority fight truly begins. And that would be an entirely separate issue.

Which would be decided by an arbitrator because there is zero chance it would be decided through a negotiation.
The pilots that left Sunwing and went to WJ didn’t benefit from that choice

wich is a shame, let's be fair.

If you had the chance to switch boat and did not go, you should not be entitled to seniority at all.

[737Drver]

Can someone name:

1) any other major airline that flies regional jets

NONE

2) a labour group that signs a 17 years deal

Just Jazz pilots

Additional question:

3) can someone name a time when career regional pilots were given DOH seniority at a major airline.