Grievance update for the 285ish former Jazz pilots affected by Flow

[truedude]

They fucked with Jazz's pilot pay. Classic creating a problem to fix it yourself the way you want. Let's see what AC's defence is, not Jazz's.

So why did you guys vote yes to it? The ball was in your court.

Can't complain about any offer if at the end of the day, you vote yes to it.

It was a take it or leave it offer. Air Canada felt this would fix things. They needed to be shown it wouldnt. And since they already showed little to no regard for any of the contracts in place, who is to say they wouldnt keep trying to part out the CPA work to more and more vendors, all while pointing the fingers at the pilots for being "unreasonable." We have every right to complain about the complete and utter disrespect Air Canada management showed, and every right to seek compensation.

And since Air Canada has tried multiple times to run away from the ULP proceedings, only to be told by the CIRB that their finger prints are all over this, I would say so far, the CIRB seems to agree that Jazz pilots have a case.

[cdnavater]

They fucked with Jazz's pilot pay. Classic creating a problem to fix it yourself the way you want. Let's see what AC's defence is, not Jazz's.

So why did you guys vote yes to it? The ball was in your court.

Can't complain about any offer if at the end of the day, you vote yes to it.

What? That’s literally why I started voting in politics, I was told if I don’t vote I can’t complain!
You AC pilots have done nothing but complain about your recent contract, ours was passed with roughly the same percentage if I remember correctly!
The most common yes vote, myself included was take what we can and when they realize it doesn’t fix it they’ll come back, however, it didn’t fix anything and they haven’t come back!
They would rather reduce the Jazz fleet early than pay us what Porter is paying, why, because they can put a 220 on Porter routes to compete so why pay Jazz pilots more?
The union is looking after all Jazz pilots best interest, whether you agree or not, all Jazz pilots have been harmed from the past 15 years of ACs antics.
After 2010 and including the 2010 contract, Captains were only getting a 2% raise per year and until last year were well behind inflation, really the increase we attained probably covered inflation plus a bit if at all!
All of this is a direct result of AC pilots taking away the scope that prevented anyone other than Jazz from doing tier 2 flying, it was a direct result of Jazz pilots voting to strike. AC pilots thought it was a good idea to let AC destroy a good company which would only bring your wages up, if we make more, you make more but you guys are so spiteful that any chance to screw us, you take it!
No wonder we feel the same way, honestly, I don’t know what’s happening with the CIRB challenge, only people in the room really know but after all the screwing I’ve been subjected to over the years, I wouldn’t mind doing a little of the screwing myself, see how that works and see how management has managed over the years to whipsaw us.
The 285 lost some seniority but the Jazz pilots who stayed or planned to make a career here have been stagnant for a long time, so yes all pilots deserve some form of justice.

[Man_in_the_sky]

So why did you guys vote yes to it? The ball was in your court.

Can't complain about any offer if at the end of the day, you vote yes to it.

What? That’s literally why I started voting in politics, I was told if I don’t vote I can’t complain!
You AC pilots have done nothing but complain about your recent contract, ours was passed with roughly the same percentage if I remember correctly!
The most common yes vote, myself included was take what we can and when they realize it doesn’t fix it they’ll come back, however, it didn’t fix anything and they haven’t come back!
They would rather reduce the Jazz fleet early than pay us what Porter is paying, why, because they can put a 220 on Porter routes to compete so why pay Jazz pilots more?
The union is looking after all Jazz pilots best interest, whether you agree or not, all Jazz pilots have been harmed from the past 15 years of ACs antics.
After 2010 and including the 2010 contract, Captains were only getting a 2% raise per year and until last year were well behind inflation, really the increase we attained probably covered inflation plus a bit if at all!
All of this is a direct result of AC pilots taking away the scope that prevented anyone other than Jazz from doing tier 2 flying, it was a direct result of Jazz pilots voting to strike. AC pilots thought it was a good idea to let AC destroy a good company which would only bring your wages up, if we make more, you make more but you guys are so spiteful that any chance to screw us, you take it!
No wonder we feel the same way, honestly, I don’t know what’s happening with the CIRB challenge, only people in the room really know but after all the screwing I’ve been subjected to over the years, I wouldn’t mind doing a little of the screwing myself, see how that works and see how management has managed over the years to whipsaw us.
The 285 lost some seniority but the Jazz pilots who stayed or planned to make a career here have been stagnant for a long time, so yes all pilots deserve some form of justice.

For the record
I voted against the jazz offer and for the ac contract, i never complained about our 42% raise

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

The math is simple...

42% raise on an industry worst legacy contract is still the worst contract for legacy airlines.

[Man_in_the_sky]

The math is simple...

42% raise on an industry worst legacy contract is still the worst contract for legacy airlines.

Can you be honest, take a step back and acknoledge that if it was voted down, with the actual climate and treats of our MEC chair stepping down. The actual economical climate would now be against us.

[altiplano]

The math is simple...

42% raise on an industry worst legacy contract is still the worst contract for legacy airlines.

Can you be honest, take a step back and acknoledge that if it was voted down, with the actual climate and treats of our MEC chair stepping down. The actual economical climate would now be against us.

If we're going to play that game... Can you be honest, take a step back and acknowledge that had that TA not seen the light of day in the first place, we were at the best point possibly ever to take it all the way to wire, or perhaps beyond, and leverage the company into the deal our members really wanted.

50% of the Yes voters were there because we sewered our best opportunity. Held their noses and voted in disgust.

Hard to believe that was more than 7 months ago now. Maybe we should learn our lesson, look forward, and start acting like we are going to go get the rest in 2027.

Or should we also do some revisionism on all the other touchpoints? Maybe the CAIL merger, 2003 bankruptcy, TA1/FOS, 2014's 10 years for $10K, b-scale, c-scale, and all the rest of it.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

There's no way we're getting the rest in 2027. We blew our chance and next time the company is going to have massive leverage in the form of potential layoffs due to the economic downturn.

[cdnavater]

There's no way we're getting the rest in 2027. We blew our chance and next time the company is going to have massive leverage in the form of potential layoffs due to the economic downturn.

How long do you think it will take to recover?
It’s two years away, should be in recovery mode by then and the company will want to capitalize on the upswing, could afford a work stoppage then, also, if we are still in a recession, drag your heels like the company always does and wait for the rebound!

[Man_in_the_sky]

There's no way we're getting the rest in 2027. We blew our chance and next time the company is going to have massive leverage in the form of potential layoffs due to the economic downturn.

How long do you think it will take to recover?
It’s two years away, should be in recovery mode by then and the company will want to capitalize on the upswing, could afford a work stoppage then, also, if we are still in a recession, drag your heels like the company always does and wait for the rebound!

We're still expecting massive deliveries in the next 2 years.. they will need to crew those planes.

[Inverted2]

Hard to tell with this industry. There were ground schools starting in 2020 and they were getting laid off 3 days later when the scamdemic started. We pilots have short memories.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

The math is simple...

42% raise on an industry worst legacy contract is still the worst contract for legacy airlines.

Can you be honest, take a step back and acknoledge that if it was voted down, with the actual climate and treats of our MEC chair stepping down. The actual economical climate would now be against us.

If we're going to play that game... Can you be honest, take a step back and acknowledge that had that TA not seen the light of day in the first place, we were at the best point possibly ever to take it all the way to wire, or perhaps beyond, and leverage the company into the deal our members really wanted.

50% of the Yes voters were there because we sewered our best opportunity. Held their noses and voted in disgust.

Hard to believe that was more than 7 months ago now. Maybe we should learn our lesson, look forward, and start acting like we are going to go get the rest in 2027.

Or should we also do some revisionism on all the other touchpoints? Maybe the CAIL merger, 2003 bankruptcy, TA1/FOS, 2014's 10 years for $10K, b-scale, c-scale, and all the rest of it.

Exactly.

Once the weak ass MEC and the 3 YES votes from the 50 pilot base of Winnipeg was out of the bag, the pilots blew their leverage like a 15 yrs in the back seat of his parents car with his first date...

It was a 1 pump disappointment. So the clean up began which became a peek into the chaos & amateur hour theatrics behind the scenes. Take a look at the latest implementation newsletter or the gong show around A11.

[flying4dollars]

You AC pilots have done nothing but complain about your recent contract, ours was passed with roughly the same percentage if I remember correctly!

In all fairness, the ones who are complaining, and rightfully so, are the ones that voted NO. So generally assuming all we do is complain about our contract as if we have no right to is a bit unfair and mislabeling. Yes voters do not have a right to complain.

[AllthatJazz]

Could be worse...you could be at Jazz

[GIVCE!]

Oouuu…from the guy who joined yesterday… probably AC management trying to divide the pilot groups. Good one though.
Sold my ESoP on the spike today…you?

[Daniel Cooper]

Uh sold in December when $25 was rejected again. The market hates Air Canada. I wonder why.

[AllthatJazz]

Oouuu…from the guy who joined yesterday… probably AC management trying to divide the pilot groups. Good one though.
Sold my ESoP on the spike today…you?

I came to see the word on the street about this grievance

[Man_in_the_sky]

Oouuu…from the guy who joined yesterday… probably AC management trying to divide the pilot groups. Good one though.
Sold my ESoP on the spike today…you?

I came to see the word on the street about this grievance

Word is 200k + lump sum for every of the 285 affe tes
Or full restatement of seniority

[PostmasterGeneral]

Oouuu…from the guy who joined yesterday… probably AC management trying to divide the pilot groups. Good one though.
Sold my ESoP on the spike today…you?

I came to see the word on the street about this grievance

Word is 200k + lump sum for every of the 285 affe tes
Or full restatement of seniority

Thats going to amount to a few hundred bucks per pilot, kind of insulting.

[cdnavater]

I came to see the word on the street about this grievance

Word is 200k + lump sum for every of the 285 affe tes
Or full restatement of seniority

Thats going to amount to a few hundred bucks per pilot, kind of insulting.

I think he meant 200k per pilot or reinstatement of lost seniority, in addition all pilots who remain at Jazz are getting A220 pay scale minus 5% and a signing bonus of 50k(retro pay)

[Protonpilot]

The math is simple...

42% raise on an industry worst legacy contract is still the worst contract for legacy airlines.

Can you be honest, take a step back and acknoledge that if it was voted down, with the actual climate and treats of our MEC chair stepping down. The actual economical climate would now be against us.

If we're going to play that game... Can you be honest, take a step back and acknowledge that had that TA not seen the light of day in the first place, we were at the best point possibly ever to take it all the way to wire, or perhaps beyond, and leverage the company into the deal our members really wanted.

50% of the Yes voters were there because we sewered our best opportunity. Held their noses and voted in disgust.

Hard to believe that was more than 7 months ago now. Maybe we should learn our lesson, look forward, and start acting like we are going to go get the rest in 2027.

Or should we also do some revisionism on all the other touchpoints? Maybe the CAIL merger, 2003 bankruptcy, TA1/FOS, 2014's 10 years for $10K, b-scale, c-scale, and all the rest of it.

I don't have the same takeaway from this.

Door number 1, door number 2.

CN rail workers chose door number 2, and they were legislated back to work with binding arbitration. Apparently it doesn't matter what the Supreme Court said about teachers in Saskatchewan a few years ago. The labour minister has a catchall for 'protecting the economy' which is not that much different than being declared an essential service. I have every reason to believe we would have been legislated back to work in the same way, and that we wouldn't have had a quick resolution. We'd be negotiating in this crummy environment.

The rail workers just got their arbitrated contract handed to them this week. 3%/3%/3% over three years.

So 26/4/4/4 seems to me like pretty good extraction of value while we had leverage. There might have been more, but a no vote and strike didn't necessarily mean we were getting another deal two weeks later. In 2012 it took over a year to go from TA1 to FOS.

[thepoors]

Can you be honest, take a step back and acknoledge that if it was voted down, with the actual climate and treats of our MEC chair stepping down. The actual economical climate would now be against us.

If we're going to play that game... Can you be honest, take a step back and acknowledge that had that TA not seen the light of day in the first place, we were at the best point possibly ever to take it all the way to wire, or perhaps beyond, and leverage the company into the deal our members really wanted.

50% of the Yes voters were there because we sewered our best opportunity. Held their noses and voted in disgust.

Hard to believe that was more than 7 months ago now. Maybe we should learn our lesson, look forward, and start acting like we are going to go get the rest in 2027.

Or should we also do some revisionism on all the other touchpoints? Maybe the CAIL merger, 2003 bankruptcy, TA1/FOS, 2014's 10 years for $10K, b-scale, c-scale, and all the rest of it.

I don't have the same takeaway from this.

Door number 1, door number 2.

CN rail workers chose door number 2, and they were legislated back to work with binding arbitration. Apparently it doesn't matter what the Supreme Court said about teachers in Saskatchewan a few years ago. The labour minister has a catchall for 'protecting the economy' which is not that much different than being declared an essential service. I have every reason to believe we would have been legislated back to work in the same way, and that we wouldn't have had a quick resolution. We'd be negotiating in this crummy environment.

The rail workers just got their arbitrated contract handed to them this week. 3%/3%/3% over three years.

So 26/4/4/4 seems to me like pretty good extraction of value while we had leverage. There might have been more, but a no vote and strike didn't necessarily mean we were getting another deal two weeks later. In 2012 it took over a year to go from TA1 to FOS.

You're missing the point, which myself and 3rdWorldClassPilot have made over and over again: the MEC surrendered all of our leverage way before that needed to happen.

Everyone here keeps skipping ahead to arbitration... We still had 3 DAYS before the strike when these traitors agreed to a dogwater TA and started pushing it on the membership "or else." That was the failure point. The company felt no pain with hardly any cancelled flights or disruptions, and ALPA leadership exposed themselves as a bunch cowards once again.

So much could have happened in those 72hrs as the deadline drew closer but they chose to flush it all prematurely. I still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer as to why that happened and I don't think one exists. Just spineless suckers in over their depth who folded before there was any real pressure.

[Protonpilot]

You're missing the point, which myself and 3rdWorldClassPilot have made over and over again: the MEC surrendered all of our leverage way before that needed to happen.

Everyone here keeps skipping ahead to arbitration... We still had 3 DAYS before the strike when these traitors agreed to a dogwater TA and started pushing it on the membership "or else." That was the failure point. The company felt no pain with hardly any cancelled flights or disruptions, and ALPA leadership exposed themselves as a bunch cowards once again.

So much could have happened in those 72hrs as the deadline drew closer but they chose to flush it all prematurely. I still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer as to why that happened and I don't think one exists. Just spineless suckers in over their depth who folded before there was any real pressure.

No, I'm not missing your point.

Midnight Saturday was the beginning of the 72 hour wind down announced by Air Canada to start cancelling flights and bringing home all aircraft that were out of country. This was the Rubicon. This wasn't about crossing the Rubicon and landing on the other side three days later - as soon as we started crossing, the government could step in and put a stop to it. That was the reality.

I'm willing to acknowledge that rejecting what the MEC believed was a best and final offer and pressing forward into that 72 hour wind down might have resulted in incremental gains to the 26/4/4/4 we eventually ratified. But I also argue that concomitant with that was an exponential increase in risk of a really substandard outcome. The MEC's job, supported by the advice of the ALPA professionals, was to weigh those two outcomes. We'll never know what could have resulted from pressing on past the Saturday midnight deadline. But we have a much better picture, thanks to the CN arbitration, of what an arbitrated result would have entailed.

I just don't think that you're acknowledging the risk reward equation.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Word is 200k + lump sum for every of the 285 affe tes
Or full restatement of seniority

Thats going to amount to a few hundred bucks per pilot, kind of insulting.

I think he meant 200k per pilot or reinstatement of lost seniority, in addition all pilots who remain at Jazz are getting A220 pay scale minus 5% and a signing bonus of 50k(retro pay)

I meant 200k for each of the 285 pilots.

Nothing else was said. You guys signed an MOA 2 years ago with pay raise, why would you suddenly receive a other’s company wage -5%? Why aren’t you getting PAL’s wage, the other AC regional?

[Man_in_the_sky]

You're missing the point, which myself and 3rdWorldClassPilot have made over and over again: the MEC surrendered all of our leverage way before that needed to happen.

Everyone here keeps skipping ahead to arbitration... We still had 3 DAYS before the strike when these traitors agreed to a dogwater TA and started pushing it on the membership "or else." That was the failure point. The company felt no pain with hardly any cancelled flights or disruptions, and ALPA leadership exposed themselves as a bunch cowards once again.

So much could have happened in those 72hrs as the deadline drew closer but they chose to flush it all prematurely. I still haven't gotten a satisfactory answer as to why that happened and I don't think one exists. Just spineless suckers in over their depth who folded before there was any real pressure.

No, I'm not missing your point.

Midnight Saturday was the beginning of the 72 hour wind down announced by Air Canada to start cancelling flights and bringing home all aircraft that were out of country. This was the Rubicon. This wasn't about crossing the Rubicon and landing on the other side three days later - as soon as we started crossing, the government could step in and put a stop to it. That was the reality.

I'm willing to acknowledge that rejecting what the MEC believed was a best and final offer and pressing forward into that 72 hour wind down might have resulted in incremental gains to the 26/4/4/4 we eventually ratified. But I also argue that concomitant with that was an exponential increase in risk of a really substandard outcome. The MEC's job, supported by the advice of the ALPA professionals, was to weigh those two outcomes. We'll never know what could have resulted from pressing on past the Saturday midnight deadline. But we have a much better picture, thanks to the CN arbitration, of what an arbitrated result would have entailed.

I just don't think that you're acknowledging the risk reward equation.

Company was walking off the table 72 hours prior to the strike, they were either discussing at the table, or putting their wind down plan in effect.
Not the 2 at the same time. I was also under the impression we caved with 3 days left but the reality is, it was in the last hour..

[cdnavater]

Thats going to amount to a few hundred bucks per pilot, kind of insulting.

I think he meant 200k per pilot or reinstatement of lost seniority, in addition all pilots who remain at Jazz are getting A220 pay scale minus 5% and a signing bonus of 50k(retro pay)

I meant 200k for each of the 285 pilots.

Nothing else was said. You guys signed an MOA 2 years ago with pay raise, why would you suddenly receive a other’s company wage -5%? Why aren’t you getting PAL’s wage, the other AC regional?

Because, as discussed ad nauseam, the contract we signed is not what was agreed to between Jazz and Jazz ALPA, AC stepped in and gave a last and final offer much less than agreed to.
The friggen interference is the main reason for the CIRB ULP, your hurt seniority is actually secondary, so if you think a bunch of whiny children who accepted lowest regional pay in Canada who are now at AC are ahead of the existing Jazz pilots who have been harmed for years from AC practices, you’re sorely mistaken!
ULP is unfair labour practice, ie; interference not contract violations, if it were only because you didn’t get hired for a few months, that would simply be a contract violation dealt with per the outline in the contract! Grievance process followed by arbitration, lucky to get 50 bucks on a Starbucks card going that route!
You’re only grouped in because it bolsters the entire ULP, ie; look at all the promises they broke before they screwed with our right to fair bargaining!