WestJet to Layoff 100+ Pilots

[Tbayer2021]

Can't have layoffs until fall 2026 unless there's a major event that cause a significant grounding of the fleet and then it would be way more than 100 pilots.

It's in the arbitration award that nobody read apparently.

Exactly, I mentioned this fact earlier but it is a lot more fun to speculate !
As for the reduction, we will know more sometimes in May. So far it is YYZ and YVR and YYC will see some openings.

If the last few years haven't proved to you that companies will wipe the asses with the collective agreement whenever they see fit. I don't know what to tell you.

[fixnfly]

Can't have layoffs until fall 2026 unless there's a major event that cause a significant grounding of the fleet and then it would be way more than 100 pilots.

It's in the arbitration award that nobody read apparently.

Exactly, I mentioned this fact earlier but it is a lot more fun to speculate !
As for the reduction, we will know more sometimes in May. So far it is YYZ and YVR and YYC will see some openings.

If the last few years haven't proved to you that companies will wipe the asses with the collective agreement whenever they see fit. I don't know what to tell you.

+1
The Collect agreement is just guidance for a company, not rule of law. Any airline will violate it when it's in the interest of business and force you to go down the grievance process that will take years. WJ may have agreed to no layoffs until 2026, but doesn't mean they'll abide by it. Just look to the history of grievances from both Mainline and Encore to see the long track record of violating agreements.

[nohojob]

Can't have layoffs until fall 2026 unless there's a major event that cause a significant grounding of the fleet and then it would be way more than 100 pilots.

It's in the arbitration award that nobody read apparently.

Exactly, I mentioned this fact earlier but it is a lot more fun to speculate !
As for the reduction, we will know more sometimes in May. So far it is YYZ and YVR and YYC will see some openings.

If the last few years haven't proved to you that companies will wipe the asses with the collective agreement whenever they see fit. I don't know what to tell you.

I agree they try, however I saw t ends up back firing and costing them money.
So the union/contract system is not perfect but it works.

[cdnavater]

Exactly, I mentioned this fact earlier but it is a lot more fun to speculate !
As for the reduction, we will know more sometimes in May. So far it is YYZ and YVR and YYC will see some openings.

If the last few years haven't proved to you that companies will wipe the asses with the collective agreement whenever they see fit. I don't know what to tell you.

I agree they try, however I saw t ends up back firing and costing them money.
So the union/contract system is not perfect but it works.

Look at the Jazz situation, years later we are still waiting and not sure of anything and the violations are big enough to warrant a ULP at the CIRB!
Grievance process is longer, we had some long time grievances settled with the last CBA that ended up with nothing for the pilots really, some extra time for the union if I remember correctly.
Company will use the tariff and US travel to their advantage, force majeure!

[daedalusx]

Speaking of CBA violation, WestJet already has a grievance filed against them for placing newly integrated Sunwing capts on a lower pay step and refusing to respect their full length of service.

[nohojob]

Speaking of CBA violation, WestJet already has a grievance filed against them for placing newly integrated Sunwing capts on a lower pay step and refusing to respect their full length of service.

I don't think they will get away with this one.

[flieslikeachicken]

Speaking of CBA violation, WestJet already has a grievance filed against them for placing newly integrated Sunwing capts on a lower pay step and refusing to respect their full length of service.

What does the CBA say?

[JBI]

Here it is

The context of this Comm is important.

The VP of Flight Ops does a bi-weekly pilot call where he gives business updates and responds to questions. Understandably so, he received a number of questions regarding the tariffs and down turn in demand including specific questions on whether there would be lay-offs. He spent the first minute outlining the different capacity and route changes that WJ and other Canadian Airlines have made and then outlined that the company is modelling a number of different scenarios with respect to demand both based on severity and length of time such a down turn could last. After all those discussions he outlined that lay-offs would be a last resort but [if things got that far] his preference would be to use some other options, including, but not limited to voluntary leaves of absences, voluntary reduced or zero block months (which are allowable under the contract). He then gave his opinion that, as we saw in COVID, sharing the burden with reduced blocks across the board was better than lay-offs.

The MEC put out the Comm responding to that last comment. During COVID there was quite the divide amongst the pilot group if reduced blocks across the board actually WAS better for the pilot group or, if it made more sense to simply keep the pilots on staff at full pay and lay-off as necessary. There are very significant pros and cons to each argument which I won't get into.

The MEC has taken the position that the latter is better than the former. Presumably this was done by the MEC to clearly state their position and to stop any discussions prior to them starting.

The current economic outlook is the worst it's been since the end of COVID and there has been a drop in demand, particularly to US destinations. But the flights are still mostly full, there has been some increase in demand to non-US destinations and the company has re-deployed aircraft on additional domestic and non-US routes.

There has been no news about any lay-offs. While hiring is paused, even with a better economy this would be the case while the Sunwing pilots are integrating into WJ. A small, limited number of zero block and reduced block positions have been offered for May which is typically a shoulder month anyways.

It's not time to panic. Concerned? Definitely, but the title of this thread is misleading.

[cdnavater]

Here it is

The context of this Comm is important.

The VP of Flight Ops does a bi-weekly pilot call where he gives business updates and responds to questions. Understandably so, he received a number of questions regarding the tariffs and down turn in demand including specific questions on whether there would be lay-offs. He spent the first minute outlining the different capacity and route changes that WJ and other Canadian Airlines have made and then outlined that the company is modelling a number of different scenarios with respect to demand both based on severity and length of time such a down turn could last. After all those discussions he outlined that lay-offs would be a last resort but [if things got that far] his preference would be to use some other options, including, but not limited to voluntary leaves of absences, voluntary reduced or zero block months (which are allowable under the contract). He then gave his opinion that, as we saw in COVID, sharing the burden with reduced blocks across the board was better than lay-offs.

The MEC put out the Comm responding to that last comment. During COVID there was quite the divide amongst the pilot group if reduced blocks across the board actually WAS better for the pilot group or, if it made more sense to simply keep the pilots on staff at full pay and lay-off as necessary. There are very significant pros and cons to each argument which I won't get into.

The MEC has taken the position that the latter is better than the former. Presumably this was done by the MEC to clearly state their position and to stop any discussions prior to them starting.

The current economic outlook is the worst it's been since the end of COVID and there has been a drop in demand, particularly to US destinations. But the flights are still mostly full, there has been some increase in demand to non-US destinations and the company has re-deployed aircraft on additional domestic and non-US routes.

There has been no news about any lay-offs. While hiring is paused, even with a better economy this would be the case while the Sunwing pilots are integrating into WJ. A small, limited number of zero block and reduced block positions have been offered for May which is typically a shoulder month anyways.

It's not time to panic. Concerned? Definitely, but the title of this thread is misleading.

The job sharing benefits the company more than anything, sure pilots on half blocks would be doing better than EI but forcing the company to take a good hard look at whether or not layoffs are necessary, bringing pilots back after layoff is a different process than just ramping things back up with full blocks. The company will have to decide on layoffs and re-training or keeping them on the payroll and current, each has a cost and it will depend on how long they think it will be.
You have a huge leverage with the no lay off clause, the company bought another company make that cost them!

[Inverted2]

I’m sure some of the AR boomers will retire in order to prevent a junior pilot getting laid off.

[nohojob]

I’m sure some of the AR boomers will retire in order to prevent a junior pilot getting laid off.

do they owe you something ?

[cdnavater]

I’m sure some of the AR boomers will retire in order to prevent a junior pilot getting laid off.

do they owe you something ?

I don’t get this, are there no early retirements that offset the ones that stay!

I plan on going by 60, 62 at the latest if I don’t get the ERP the first or second time, so I’ll either be 5, 4 or 3 years early which offsets one who stays after 65.
No one is entitled to anyone else’s position, you get there when you get there and one of the benefits of seniority is not getting a layoff notice, which for many they likely have experienced more than once. I wish people would just accept some want to or need to keep working, I don’t get it myself but that’s me.
I also say this as someone who is directly affected by this, I have been in the training department for 10 years, I have been in the middle of the pack for pretty much the whole time, I can’t hold specific time of day shifts, I can hold the days off I ask for but that’s it. This is because many times over the years either someone senior to me has decided to join late in their career or as of this last year stay longer, it is what it is, I don’t begrudge them one iota!

[phenix]

You have a huge leverage with the no lay off clause, the company bought another company make that cost them!

The no layoff clause only applies if the layoff is a direct result of Sunwing acquisition

[N181CS]

One might argue that buying 500ish (prob 4-450 after people jump ship) and than laying people off because you are over staffed might fall under that category. They did not need to buy Sunwing, they could have hired those pilots and opened bases in YUL and YHZ and booked people at whatever hotels they choose to package with. They did not buy the hotels. They bought the call centres planes and employees.

[safetyfirst123]

They did not need to buy Sunwing, they could have hired those pilots and opened bases in YUL and YHZ and booked people at whatever hotels they choose to package with. They did not buy the hotels. They bought the call centres planes and employees.

Ask Onex why they thought it was a good idea to merge Sunwing Airlines into Westjet Airlines, and Westjet Vacations into Sunwing Vacations?
Westjet have tried these markets and they haven't done very well. But if Westjet Airlines continues to ignore the east, then the Sunwing merger will not go as planned.

[BigQ]

Sunwing pilots in integration ground school were told 3% last week, right from the horse's mouth. Sameish numbers at AC

3% of 2500 is 75

No, 3% reduction in US flying, not 3% reduction in pilots

[N181CS]

They did not need to buy Sunwing, they could have hired those pilots and opened bases in YUL and YHZ and booked people at whatever hotels they choose to package with. They did not buy the hotels. They bought the call centres planes and employees.

Ask Onex why they thought it was a good idea to merge Sunwing Airlines into Westjet Airlines, and Westjet Vacations into Sunwing Vacations?
Westjet have tried these markets and they haven't done very well. But if Westjet Airlines continues to ignore the east, then the Sunwing merger will not go as planned.

Oh yeah bud, that’s a big plus 1 there. They should have changed their name to Sunwing and become a truly Canadian airline too. But that’s just me stinking out loud.

[boeingboy]

They did not need to buy Sunwing, they could have hired those pilots and opened bases in YUL and YHZ and booked people at whatever hotels they choose to package with. They did not buy the hotels. They bought the call centres planes and employees.

Ask Onex why they thought it was a good idea to merge Sunwing Airlines into Westjet Airlines, and Westjet Vacations into Sunwing Vacations?
Westjet have tried these markets and they haven't done very well. But if Westjet Airlines continues to ignore the east, then the Sunwing merger will not go as planned.

Oh yeah bud, that’s a big plus 1 there. They should have changed their name to Sunwing and become a truly Canadian airline too. But that’s just me stinking out loud.

They wont ignore the East - at least in the short term. There will be an guarantee in place that Westjet will continue to serve the same cities and operate as the Vacations division requires for a few years. Whenever that expires - then we may see a shift, but I think that will depend on how well the vacations division preformed and how much extra it supplemented WestJet's bottom line. The Sunwing operation has already made quite an impact on their bottom line and if it makes good money in the long run - Westjet is not going to dump it.

[cdnavater]

Ask Onex why they thought it was a good idea to merge Sunwing Airlines into Westjet Airlines, and Westjet Vacations into Sunwing Vacations?
Westjet have tried these markets and they haven't done very well. But if Westjet Airlines continues to ignore the east, then the Sunwing merger will not go as planned.

Oh yeah bud, that’s a big plus 1 there. They should have changed their name to Sunwing and become a truly Canadian airline too. But that’s just me stinking out loud.

They wont ignore the East - at least in the short term. There will be an guarantee in place that Westjet will continue to serve the same cities and operate as the Vacations division requires for a few years. Whenever that expires - then we may see a shift, but I think that will depend on how well the vacations division preformed and how much extra it supplemented WestJet's bottom line. The Sunwing operation has already made quite an impact on their bottom line and if it makes good money in the long run - Westjet is not going to dump it.

You sure are a glass half full kind of guy, in a private company how can you say Sunwing has made an impact on the bottom line, unless you are recto a negative impact when you essentially stopped flying people south on their vacation because you didn’t bring the others home yet!

[ads-b]

I’m sure some of the AR boomers will retire in order to prevent a junior pilot getting laid off.

do they owe you something ?

I don’t get this, are there no early retirements that offset the ones that stay!

I plan on going by 60, 62 at the latest if I don’t get the ERP the first or second time, so I’ll either be 5, 4 or 3 years early which offsets one who stays after 65.
No one is entitled to anyone else’s position, you get there when you get there and one of the benefits of seniority is not getting a layoff notice, which for many they likely have experienced more than once. I wish people would just accept some want to or need to keep working, I don’t get it myself but that’s me.
I also say this as someone who is directly affected by this, I have been in the training department for 10 years, I have been in the middle of the pack for pretty much the whole time, I can’t hold specific time of day shifts, I can hold the days off I ask for but that’s it. This is because many times over the years either someone senior to me has decided to join late in their career or as of this last year stay longer, it is what it is, I don’t begrudge them one iota!

If I was slogging it out for 40 years at a regional, down low with tons of sectors, hanging out at airports for min credit, watching 25 year olds head to AC I’d be retiring as early as possible as well.

I would have stayed at Sunwing until I fell into a box 6 feet under. 10 days a month with 1 to 2 sectors a day isn’t difficult in the least.

WJ I’ll see.

[cdnavater]

do they owe you something ?

I don’t get this, are there no early retirements that offset the ones that stay!

I plan on going by 60, 62 at the latest if I don’t get the ERP the first or second time, so I’ll either be 5, 4 or 3 years early which offsets one who stays after 65.
No one is entitled to anyone else’s position, you get there when you get there and one of the benefits of seniority is not getting a layoff notice, which for many they likely have experienced more than once. I wish people would just accept some want to or need to keep working, I don’t get it myself but that’s me.
I also say this as someone who is directly affected by this, I have been in the training department for 10 years, I have been in the middle of the pack for pretty much the whole time, I can’t hold specific time of day shifts, I can hold the days off I ask for but that’s it. This is because many times over the years either someone senior to me has decided to join late in their career or as of this last year stay longer, it is what it is, I don’t begrudge them one iota!

If I was slogging it out for 40 years at a regional, down low with tons of sectors, hanging out at airports for min credit, watching 25 year olds head to AC I’d be retiring as early as possible as well.

I would have stayed at Sunwing until I fell into a box 6 feet under. 10 days a month with 1 to 2 sectors a day isn’t difficult in the least.

WJ I’ll see.

I can say with 100% certainty that has nothing to do with it, I don’t fly often at all but the Jet flying at Jazz is not down low, flies the same altitudes as the 737 and typically has longer sectors than the Q. I did two years on the dash and have been on the RJ ever since, when I flew most four day pairings had 6 legs in total, the job other than the layovers is no different than any narrowbody job in Canada, your view of regional flying at Jazz is distorted, at least based on my experience!
I would have retired at 40 if money was not the question, the above numbers are where I expect my pension combined with the year pay ERP will hit the sweet spot for me.
I’ll also add that I would have much better seniority on the line, based on projected retirements, I will be in the top 100 seniority for the last 3-5 years depending on when I go, I may go back to the line for a couple years before I go. Training is fun, I enjoy most days at work but I could probably work a couple less days per month on the line, providing the pairings improve.

[Me262]

do they owe you something ?

I don’t get this, are there no early retirements that offset the ones that stay!

I plan on going by 60, 62 at the latest if I don’t get the ERP the first or second time, so I’ll either be 5, 4 or 3 years early which offsets one who stays after 65.
No one is entitled to anyone else’s position, you get there when you get there and one of the benefits of seniority is not getting a layoff notice, which for many they likely have experienced more than once. I wish people would just accept some want to or need to keep working, I don’t get it myself but that’s me.
I also say this as someone who is directly affected by this, I have been in the training department for 10 years, I have been in the middle of the pack for pretty much the whole time, I can’t hold specific time of day shifts, I can hold the days off I ask for but that’s it. This is because many times over the years either someone senior to me has decided to join late in their career or as of this last year stay longer, it is what it is, I don’t begrudge them one iota!

If I was slogging it out for 40 years at a regional, down low with tons of sectors, hanging out at airports for min credit, watching 25 year olds head to AC I’d be retiring as early as possible as well.

I would have stayed at Sunwing until I fell into a box 6 feet under. 10 days a month with 1 to 2 sectors a day isn’t difficult in the least.

WJ I’ll see.

Dunno, flying the RJ is pretty chill too with 2-3 sectors a day and credits avg 1.5-3 per sector. I get more 1 sector/day than I get 4. And not much sitting around between sectors most of the times. DH4 on the other hand... But yes definitely not a place to hang your hat if you started less than 5 years ago. Pay is atrocious. Everything else is good. That would change on a dime if they would match and keep the pay at 80, or even 75% minimum of what a 220 would get. Which will never happen.