Westjet hiring of sunwing cadets

[Pilotlife787]

I was curious with westjet having an atpl minimum for hiring will the sunwing cadets who only hold cpls bypass this requirement? If true seems like a double standard.

[safetyfirst123]

They're already hired and are being integrated based on the arbitration.

[Canadaflyer46]

They have a code added to their name on the flight plan so that the captain/dispatch/crew Sked is aware. In the same way an Age restricted pilot/initial FO/new captain currently has.
Non-ATPL FOs won’t be paired with new captains with less than 150 hours in the left seat.

[Blackdog0301]

My understanding is that they've been given 12 months from their start date to get it. It's only temporary.

[rudder]

My understanding is that they've been given 12 months from their start date to get it. It's only temporary.

You cannot go from 250 hours to ATPL in 12 months. In point of fact, it is unlikely after even 24 months if you are simply operating as a Part 705 FO.

[JBI]

My understanding is that they've been given 12 months from their start date to get it. It's only temporary.

You cannot go from 250 hours to ATPL in 12 months. In point of fact, it is unlikely after even 24 months if you are simply operating as a Part 705 FO.

It’s been a few years since any 250 hour cadets were hired, so most have well above the 250 hours though not all have their ATPL. There were some SWG FOs hired not through a cadet program that only have CPLs as an ATPL wasn’t needed and they weren’t close an upgrade.

[ant_321]

My understanding is that they've been given 12 months from their start date to get it. It's only temporary.

You cannot go from 250 hours to ATPL in 12 months. In point of fact, it is unlikely after even 24 months if you are simply operating as a Part 705 FO.

It’s been a few years since any 250 hour cadets were hired, so most have well above the 250 hours though not all have their ATPL. There were some SWG FOs hired not through a cadet program that only have CPLs as an ATPL wasn’t needed and they weren’t close an upgrade.

That’s not the case. Most of the last few classes were cadets and there is a one off new hire cadet currently going through initial line indoc now.

[JBI]

You cannot go from 250 hours to ATPL in 12 months. In point of fact, it is unlikely after even 24 months if you are simply operating as a Part 705 FO.

It’s been a few years since any 250 hour cadets were hired, so most have well above the 250 hours though not all have their ATPL. There were some SWG FOs hired not through a cadet program that only have CPLs as an ATPL wasn’t needed and they weren’t close an upgrade.

That’s not the case. Most of the last few classes were cadets and there is a one off new hire cadet currently going through initial line indoc now.

Hmm, I stand corrected then - I had been informed otherwise. Is that 1 year timeline accurate? As I agree with rudder, that would be pretty hard to get in a year.

[MaxAuto]

They just have to take their written exams within 12 months. I know because it was explained in the transfer letter that everyone got.

[digits_]

With upgrade times of 9+ years there's a concern some FOs don't hold an ATPL?

[daedalusx]

With upgrade times of 9+ years there's a concern some FOs don't hold an ATPL?

More like 15 years if you want to be a block holder in YYC.

[Blackdog0301]

With upgrade times of 9+ years there's a concern some FOs don't hold an ATPL?

It's the principle of it that has some people feeling annoyed. Westjet has always required an ATPL, and now there are supposedly well over 100 pilots coming over that would have never been hired if not for this merger. I've already flown with some captains who have told me that if their FO is flying around with a CPL, then they will not allow them to fly under various circumstances... Night, crosswinds, busy airports, short runways, etc. Probably a tad extreme, yes. But that's exactly why all CPL pilots will have special code next to their name on the schedules and Flightplans so the captain can decide for themselves what sort of leash they put on their FO. Technically you can get away with just writing the exams in the next 12 months and not actually get the license. But if it were me, I'd find a way to get that license ASAP and have the "I'm from Sunwing and only have a CPL" label removed from my name.

[Tbayer2021]

With upgrade times of 9+ years there's a concern some FOs don't hold an ATPL?

It's the principle of it that has some people feeling annoyed. Westjet has always required an ATPL, and now there are supposedly well over 100 pilots coming over that would have never been hired if not for this merger. I've already flown with some captains who have told me that if their FO is flying around with a CPL, then they will not allow them to fly under various circumstances... Night, crosswinds, busy airports, short runways, etc. Probably a tad extreme, yes. But that's exactly why all CPL pilots will have special code next to their name on the schedules and Flightplans so the captain can decide for themselves what sort of leash they put on their FO. Technically you can get away with just writing the exams in the next 12 months and not actually get the license. But if it were me, I'd find a way to get that license ASAP and have the "I'm from Sunwing and only have a CPL" label removed from my name.

Executives must love how easy it is to get pilots to fight each other.

[digits_]

With upgrade times of 9+ years there's a concern some FOs don't hold an ATPL?

It's the principle of it that has some people feeling annoyed. Westjet has always required an ATPL, and now there are supposedly well over 100 pilots coming over that would have never been hired if not for this merger. I've already flown with some captains who have told me that if their FO is flying around with a CPL, then they will not allow them to fly under various circumstances... Night, crosswinds, busy airports, short runways, etc. Probably a tad extreme, yes. But that's exactly why all CPL pilots will have special code next to their name on the schedules and Flightplans so the captain can decide for themselves what sort of leash they put on their FO. Technically you can get away with just writing the exams in the next 12 months and not actually get the license. But if it were me, I'd find a way to get that license ASAP and have the "I'm from Sunwing and only have a CPL" label removed from my name.

Executives must love how easy it is to get pilots to fight each other.

No kidding... what an attitude.

As if the Sunwing pilots had any decision whatsoever on wether or not to merge with Westjet. I suspect a significant group of sunwing pilots (or perhaps all?) would very much have preferred to stay a separate company.

Let's hope the FOs start making a list of captains that feel incapable of treating a CPL holder as a worthy crew member. Let's hope the company offers these captains some extra training to deal with this precarious situation that 90% of the airline captains deal with on a daily basis!

[cdnavater]

It's the principle of it that has some people feeling annoyed. Westjet has always required an ATPL, and now there are supposedly well over 100 pilots coming over that would have never been hired if not for this merger. I've already flown with some captains who have told me that if their FO is flying around with a CPL, then they will not allow them to fly under various circumstances... Night, crosswinds, busy airports, short runways, etc. Probably a tad extreme, yes. But that's exactly why all CPL pilots will have special code next to their name on the schedules and Flightplans so the captain can decide for themselves what sort of leash they put on their FO. Technically you can get away with just writing the exams in the next 12 months and not actually get the license. But if it were me, I'd find a way to get that license ASAP and have the "I'm from Sunwing and only have a CPL" label removed from my name.

Executives must love how easy it is to get pilots to fight each other.

No kidding... what an attitude.

As if the Sunwing pilots had any decision whatsoever on wether or not to merge with Westjet. I suspect a significant group of sunwing pilots (or perhaps all?) would very much have preferred to stay a separate company.

Let's hope the FOs start making a list of captains that feel incapable of treating a CPL holder as a worthy crew member. Let's hope the company offers these captains some extra training to deal with this precarious situation that 90% of the airline captains deal with on a daily basis!

I thought you should be better at numbers, Digits or does that mean something else?
90% of what airline deal with this?
In the US, you don’t fly a 705 equivalent aircraft without an ATPL, so those airline pilots are not dealing with this!
AC doesn’t hire without, not entirely sure about AT but we know Sunwing, Jazz, PAL, Encore and a couple smaller companies but that’s hardly 90% of the airline pilots!

[Blackdog0301]

Executives must love how easy it is to get pilots to fight each other.

No kidding... what an attitude.

As if the Sunwing pilots had any decision whatsoever on wether or not to merge with Westjet. I suspect a significant group of sunwing pilots (or perhaps all?) would very much have preferred to stay a separate company.

Let's hope the FOs start making a list of captains that feel incapable of treating a CPL holder as a worthy crew member. Let's hope the company offers these captains some extra training to deal with this precarious situation that 90% of the airline captains deal with on a daily basis!

I thought you should be better at numbers, Digits or does that mean something else?
90% of what airline deal with this?
In the US, you don’t fly a 705 equivalent aircraft without an ATPL, so those airline pilots are not dealing with this!
AC doesn’t hire without, not entirely sure about AT but we know Sunwing, Jazz, PAL, Encore and a couple smaller companies but that’s hardly 90% of the airline pilots!

I tend to agree with you cdn. No pilot with less than 1500 hours knows their own limits yet, nevermind a captain that's never flown with them before. I'm fairly certain that Sunwing even had barriers set up for these pilots and captain's were used to flying with low time FO's. Westjet captain's have not, and for the most part have only flown with FO's with significantly more experience. If you're a captain flying with an FO with only a CPL and an unverified number of hours landing in 20G30 knots on a wet 6000 foot runway, are you really wanting to find out their limits under those conditions? I certainly wouldn't! This is new territory for Westjet, and a necessary piece of information for captains. Pilots with only a CPL can not and should not be treated as an equal pilot when it comes to challenging conditions when they only make up 5% or less of FOs

[digits_]

Executives must love how easy it is to get pilots to fight each other.

No kidding... what an attitude.

As if the Sunwing pilots had any decision whatsoever on wether or not to merge with Westjet. I suspect a significant group of sunwing pilots (or perhaps all?) would very much have preferred to stay a separate company.

Let's hope the FOs start making a list of captains that feel incapable of treating a CPL holder as a worthy crew member. Let's hope the company offers these captains some extra training to deal with this precarious situation that 90% of the airline captains deal with on a daily basis!

I thought you should be better at numbers, Digits or does that mean something else?
90% of what airline deal with this?
In the US, you don’t fly a 705 equivalent aircraft without an ATPL, so those airline pilots are not dealing with this!
AC doesn’t hire without, not entirely sure about AT but we know Sunwing, Jazz, PAL, Encore and a couple smaller companies but that’s hardly 90% of the airline pilots!

Everywhere except North America. But you're right about the US, I forgot about them. So perhaps more like 80%? It's standard in Europe. Asia has lots of expats flying with new local pilots and a bunch of pay2fly programs as well. Africa is likely a mix of both systems. Very rough estimates of course. But it is most definitely *not* the norm to require an ATPL to be hired at an airline for an FO position.

[digits_]

No kidding... what an attitude.

As if the Sunwing pilots had any decision whatsoever on wether or not to merge with Westjet. I suspect a significant group of sunwing pilots (or perhaps all?) would very much have preferred to stay a separate company.

Let's hope the FOs start making a list of captains that feel incapable of treating a CPL holder as a worthy crew member. Let's hope the company offers these captains some extra training to deal with this precarious situation that 90% of the airline captains deal with on a daily basis!

I thought you should be better at numbers, Digits or does that mean something else?
90% of what airline deal with this?
In the US, you don’t fly a 705 equivalent aircraft without an ATPL, so those airline pilots are not dealing with this!
AC doesn’t hire without, not entirely sure about AT but we know Sunwing, Jazz, PAL, Encore and a couple smaller companies but that’s hardly 90% of the airline pilots!

I tend to agree with you cdn. No pilot with less than 1500 hours knows their own limits yet, nevermind a captain that's never flown with them before. I'm fairly certain that Sunwing even had barriers set up for these pilots and captain's were used to flying with low time FO's. Westjet captain's have not, and for the most part have only flown with FO's with significantly more experience. If you're a captain flying with an FO with only a CPL and an unverified number of hours landing in 20G30 knots on a wet 6000 foot runway, are you really wanting to find out their limits under those conditions? I certainly wouldn't! This is new territory for Westjet, and a necessary piece of information for captains. Pilots with only a CPL can not and should not be treated as an equal pilot when it comes to challenging conditions when they only make up 5% or less of FOs

Do you interview every FO you fly with to see if they match your personal preferences? Do you need to see their resume before closing the door?
If they have been flying the airplane type for 3 years, what does it matter if hey hold an ATPL or a CPL? If you notice after 2 sectors they seem to know what they are doing, why treat them differently based on a piece of paper that is not legally required?
If the FO has more experience than you, do you swap seats?

This is an absolute non issue that should not be abused by people that feel slighted by a fellow pilot for something that happened that they can not control.

[Blackdog0301]

I thought you should be better at numbers, Digits or does that mean something else?
90% of what airline deal with this?
In the US, you don’t fly a 705 equivalent aircraft without an ATPL, so those airline pilots are not dealing with this!
AC doesn’t hire without, not entirely sure about AT but we know Sunwing, Jazz, PAL, Encore and a couple smaller companies but that’s hardly 90% of the airline pilots!

I tend to agree with you cdn. No pilot with less than 1500 hours knows their own limits yet, nevermind a captain that's never flown with them before. I'm fairly certain that Sunwing even had barriers set up for these pilots and captain's were used to flying with low time FO's. Westjet captain's have not, and for the most part have only flown with FO's with significantly more experience. If you're a captain flying with an FO with only a CPL and an unverified number of hours landing in 20G30 knots on a wet 6000 foot runway, are you really wanting to find out their limits under those conditions? I certainly wouldn't! This is new territory for Westjet, and a necessary piece of information for captains. Pilots with only a CPL can not and should not be treated as an equal pilot when it comes to challenging conditions when they only make up 5% or less of FOs

Do you interview every FO you fly with to see if they match your personal preferences? Do you need to see their resume before closing the door?
If they have been flying the airplane type for 3 years, what does it matter if hey hold an ATPL or a CPL? If you notice after 2 sectors they seem to know what they are doing, why treat them differently based on a piece of paper that is not legally required?
If the FO has more experience than you, do you swap seats?

This is an absolute non issue that should not be abused by people that feel slighted by a fellow pilot for something that happened that they can not control.

When a captain pulls up their schedule, they will immediately see that they only have a CPL. You don't need to ask them or interview them. You'll already know. Now you have to decide... Which leg do you let them fly? Do you let them have the YYZ-YYC leg where the weather is good, daylight, long runways? Or do you let them fly the YYC-PSP leg with gusty winds and a turbulent approach, an airport they've never flown into, where ATC always keeps you high, and then slamdunks you onto a visual approach? It doesn't take a genius to decide.

I'm sorry, but you don't have the experience as a sub-1500 hour pilot to complain about when the captain let's you fly or doesn't let you fly. You've got a job. Enjoy it. And in your off time, study for your exams, write them, rent a 152,get your PIC and night cross country in, and get the friggin licence! If you don't like it and want to go your whole career with a CPL, go work somewhere that hires CPL pilots! Because you now have a job that no other CPL pilot in the country can get.

[CXALE]

A Sunwing CPL cadet might have 1400 TT although 1100 of those on type, while an ATPL hired last year might have 1800 hours TT, but only 300 on type……it not all about licenses and numbers sometimes….

[cdnavater]

A Sunwing CPL cadet might have 1400 TT although 1100 of those on type, while an ATPL hired last year might have 1800 hours TT, but only 300 on type……it not all about licenses and numbers sometimes….

In which case the Captain can decide what restrictions to place on the FO!
New hires often have restrictions until x amount of time on type, Jazz FOs are restricted on crosswind until 500 on type and the weather must be above plated mins always, ceiling and vis, at or below Captain must fly. Take off for FOs is restricted to 1200 RVR, in addition to cross wind limits

[digits_]

When a captain pulls up their schedule, they will immediately see that they only have a CPL. You don't need to ask them or interview them. You'll already know. Now you have to decide... Which leg do you let them fly? Do you let them have the YYZ-YYC leg where the weather is good, daylight, long runways? Or do you let them fly the YYC-PSP leg with gusty winds and a turbulent approach, an airport they've never flown into, where ATC always keeps you high, and then slamdunks you onto a visual approach? It doesn't take a genius to decide.

I'm sorry, but you don't have the experience as a sub-1500 hour pilot to complain about when the captain let's you fly or doesn't let you fly. You've got a job. Enjoy it. And in your off time, study for your exams, write them, rent a 152,get your PIC and night cross country in, and get the friggin licence! If you don't like it and want to go your whole career with a CPL, go work somewhere that hires CPL pilots! Because you now have a job that no other CPL pilot in the country can get.

You are assuming that CPL means sub 1500. That might be true for some, but not for all.
Again, they are looking at 9 to 15 year upgrade times. There's no rush to get it. Just getting the license to please some captains or FOs that are somehow upset you got the job without is extremely bizarre.

And they did go work somewhere that hired CPLs. And guess what: they still do!

In some ways they might have been lucky, in others they are not. After all the lifestyle at the company they got hired at is gone.

Don't let envy drive a rift between you and your colleagues. With the turbulent times ahead chances are you too will find yourself one a side of a merger, or worse, at some point in your career.

[digits_]

A Sunwing CPL cadet might have 1400 TT although 1100 of those on type, while an ATPL hired last year might have 1800 hours TT, but only 300 on type……it not all about licenses and numbers sometimes….

In which case the Captain can decide what restrictions to place on the FO!
New hires often have restrictions until x amount of time on type, Jazz FOs are restricted on crosswind until 500 on type and the weather must be above plated mins always, ceiling and vis, at or below Captain must fly. Take off for FOs is restricted to 1200 RVR, in addition to cross wind limits

Right. But the ATPL vs CPL label doesn't give you any of that information.

[Blackdog0301]

I'm simply defending the use of these codes to identify a low time pilot the same way the codes are used to identify WestJet's Age Retricted pilots, new captain's with high minimums, initial FO's, etc. I'm also defending the captain's right to lengthen or shorten the leash of their FO's based on their experience level. Let's face it, captains that fly with new pilots are basically instructors whether they want to be or not. Can't judge them for not wanting to teach junior how to plant a 737 on the touchdown markers in a gusty crosswind on a short runway, but having to go missed as a result.

[Blackdog0301]

When a captain pulls up their schedule, they will immediately see that they only have a CPL. You don't need to ask them or interview them. You'll already know. Now you have to decide... Which leg do you let them fly? Do you let them have the YYZ-YYC leg where the weather is good, daylight, long runways? Or do you let them fly the YYC-PSP leg with gusty winds and a turbulent approach, an airport they've never flown into, where ATC always keeps you high, and then slamdunks you onto a visual approach? It doesn't take a genius to decide.

I'm sorry, but you don't have the experience as a sub-1500 hour pilot to complain about when the captain let's you fly or doesn't let you fly. You've got a job. Enjoy it. And in your off time, study for your exams, write them, rent a 152,get your PIC and night cross country in, and get the friggin licence! If you don't like it and want to go your whole career with a CPL, go work somewhere that hires CPL pilots! Because you now have a job that no other CPL pilot in the country can get.

And they did go work somewhere that hired CPLs. And guess what: they still do!

Actually, they don't. They were merged, not hired. WestJet mainline does not hire CPLs. These pilots are a one-time exception.