Delta bought some of WJ because the pilots are so cheap?

[ThrustIdle]

Did Delta buy Westjet because they got such cheap pilots?

WestJet pilots have a pretty abysmal pay structure particularly when considering the upgrade prospects

Like $86 a hour to start at 930 hrs = less than $80k to fly a 737

Year 4 is what? A whopping $119k ?!

Literally less than half of a Delta pilot. And the widebody pay is just outright embarrassing. Also less than half. Yikes.

Hopefully there is some anger there to stop the embarrassment. Couldn't imagine being at an ALPA meeting with such shit pay

[FelixGustof]

Ouch...those are some cheap pilots. $80k to start? Lol.

Whats that like...$50k US? Lmao

[goingnowherefast]

There will be scope provisions in the Delta contract that prevents them from pawning off flying to non-Delta pilots.

WJ certainly can't do US domestic flying. They can't do US-international. WJ can do some transborder and Canadian domestic. I already don't see many Delta planes in Canada, a couple regionals sure. So that's not likely to change much.

[5degrees]

WJ aint hiring anyway, go enjoy the epic pay at big red.

[AllthatJazz]

At least AC had the draw of early upgrades even with some pretty bad working conditions (for a global carrier)

Not sure what the kind of financial situation the average Westjet FO/ recent hire is in with such low pay to fly a 737 or even 787

[Dronepiper]

Not sure what the kind of financial situation the average Westjet FO/ recent hire is in with such low pay to fly a 737 or even 787

Last year as a WJ 737 FO with 2.5 years of Service ($91/hr half the year, and then $116/hr the other half) my T4 said 170k. This year will be 200k+

Yes I did lots of OT, but I don't feel like I worked that hard. I live in base, so it makes it easier. Pretty easy to get at least 20 hours OT a month.

[737Drver]

Not sure what the kind of financial situation the average Westjet FO/ recent hire is in with such low pay to fly a 737 or even 787

Last year as a WJ 737 FO with 2.5 years of Service ($91/hr half the year, and then $116/hr the other half) my T4 said 170k. This year will be 200k+

Yes I did lots of OT, but I don't feel like I worked that hard. I live in base, so it makes it easier. Pretty easy to get at least 20 hours OT a month.

Roughly speaking

So first 6 months you made $91 times 77.5 hrs per month equals $42k

Next 6 months you were paid $116 so made $54k

So a whopping $96k Cdn to fly a regular schedule.

But you said you made $170k, so how much OT is that?

Well if you are making $204/hr for OT (double time) then that is a whopping 363 hrs of OT.

That's 30 hrs a month in OT, so flying nearly 110 hrs a month.

This is the shit I hate about Canadian aviation.

We have the worst fatigue regulations in the world rivaling Nigeria and we got this joker bragging about flying 110 hrs a month for a year.

What a fucking joke this country is.

[ThrustIdle]

Imagine bragging about your T4 and then having to fly more than what is legal in any 1st world country.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

That's embarrassing

Averaging 110 hrs a month for a year? No wonder Transport Canada doesn't take fatigue seriously when you got this crap

[JBI]

I don't see any bragging, he/she was just stating the facts.

Next, it behooves pilots to understand the following concepts:

-MMG vs Scheduling Window
-block hours vs Credit Hours
-Minimum Duty Period Credit
-RIGS (Flying vs duty vs trip)
-taxable benefits/employer contributions

When you clearly don't understand these basic concepts but then claim that someone is "flying" 110 hours a month, it ruins your whole argument.

For clarity (I'm definitely not bragging, I made more money at a previous job with way worse lifestyle and working conditions), WestJet's Scheduling Window is generally between 80-85 credits. Depending on the type of pairings you bid for and the amount of vacation, training, sick time etc you use in a month, the actual amount you fly will be less. I looked through my flights logs and in the last two years I've only had 3 months where I've actually flown more than 70 hours (with 76 being my busiest) - and that INCLUDES months where I've picked up a few Open Time Pairings. Most months I fly between 45-65 hours. I repeat, even in months where I picked up some Open Time, I've never flown more than 76 hours.

With regard to Minimum Duty Period Credit, if you fly less than 4 hours in a day, you still get paid 4 credits for the day. Same with Open Time, pick up a quick YYC-YEG-YYC where there's like 1.5 hours of flying, get paid 4 credits at 1.5x = 6 credits. Fly YYC-YXE, spend the night, fly back the next day, 2 hours of flying, 8 credits at 1.5 = 12 credits. There's 4 day listed in Open Time right now that's 15.3 hours of flying for 21.5 credit at 1.5x = 32.3 credits.

T4 income (generally, I don't know exactly what dronepiper was referencing), includes taxable benefits - such as parking, certain types of health insurance and last year, the value of the 99% off tickets that WJ employees received. Also important to note that last year, prior to the pension being put into place, the company contributed 10% of straight time earrings into either a TFSA, RRSP or unregistered account with no contribution from the pilot. That's another $8-$12,000.

So, should a first year FO make more than what they currently get? Probably.

But let's actually do some "roughly speaking' math

T4 of $170k. Average schedule - 82 credits per month (flying 55-65)

First 6 months $91 x 82 x 6 =$44,772.00
Next 6 months $116 x 82 x 6 =$57,072.00
=$102,000 for basic pay to fly 55 - 65 hours a month, but be credited for 82.

Then for straight time at 10%, that's $10,200 in employer contributions to a TFSA
=$112,000

Add another $1500 for parking taxable benefit, $3000 for insurance taxable benefit and $3000 for the 99% off fare taxable benefit and that gets us up to $119,500 on the T4. WJ also pays FOs $3600 a year for the loss of getting stock options. So we're up to $123,000 for a regular flying schedule of 55-65 hours a month.

If we use your math and simply average the rates of pay at ((116-91)/2)+91=103.5 for 1.5 credit, the rate is $155.25 and double time is $207 per credit.

170,000 - 123,000 = 47,000
47,000/155.25=302.738/12 =25.228
47,000/207 =227.0531/12 =18.921

So dronepiper would be flying an addition 19 to 25 Open Time CREDITS a month. Even with the assumption that these pairings are efficient without RIGS, you still looking, at most, at flying an additional 15-20 hours a month. So, actually flying a total 65-85 hours a month. Looking back, with very little Open Time picked up, I flew 513 hours in 10 months in 2023 and 532 hours throughout 2024.

Maybe flying 65-85 a month for $170,000 on a T4 is too much in your opinion. Fair enough, but let's get the math correct.

[rudder]

I don't see any bragging, he/she was just stating the facts.

Next, it behooves pilots to understand the following concepts:

-MMG vs Scheduling Window
-block hours vs Credit Hours
-Minimum Duty Period Credit
-RIGS (Flying vs duty vs trip)
-taxable benefits/employer contributions

When you clearly don't understand these basic concepts but then claim that someone is "flying" 110 hours a month, it ruins your whole argument.

For clarity (I'm definitely not bragging, I made more money at a previous job with way worse lifestyle and working conditions), WestJet's Scheduling Window is generally between 80-85 credits. Depending on the type of pairings you bid for and the amount of vacation, training, sick time etc you use in a month, the actual amount you fly will be less. I looked through my flights logs and in the last two years I've only had 3 months where I've actually flown more than 70 hours (with 76 being my busiest) - and that INCLUDES months where I've picked up a few Open Time Pairings. Most months I fly between 45-65 hours. I repeat, even in months where I picked up some Open Time, I've never flown more than 76 hours.

With regard to Minimum Duty Period Credit, if you fly less than 4 hours in a day, you still get paid 4 credits for the day. Same with Open Time, pick up a quick YYC-YEG-YYC where there's like 1.5 hours of flying, get paid 4 credits at 1.5x = 6 credits. Fly YYC-YXE, spend the night, fly back the next day, 2 hours of flying, 8 credits at 1.5 = 12 credits. There's 4 day listed in Open Time right now that's 15.3 hours of flying for 21.5 credit at 1.5x = 32.3 credits.

T4 income (generally, I don't know exactly what dronepiper was referencing), includes taxable benefits - such as parking, certain types of health insurance and last year, the value of the 99% off tickets that WJ employees received. Also important to note that last year, prior to the pension being put into place, the company contributed 10% of straight time earrings into either a TFSA, RRSP or unregistered account with no contribution from the pilot. That's another $8-$12,000.

So, should a first year FO make more than what they currently get? Probably.

But let's actually do some "roughly speaking' math

T4 of $170k. Average schedule - 82 credits per month (flying 55-65)

First 6 months $91 x 82 x 6 =$44,772.00
Next 6 months $116 x 82 x 6 =$57,072.00
=$102,000 for basic pay to fly 55 - 65 hours a month, but be credited for 82.

Then for straight time at 10%, that's $10,200 in employer contributions to a TFSA
=$112,000

Add another $1500 for parking taxable benefit, $3000 for insurance taxable benefit and $3000 for the 99% off fare taxable benefit and that gets us up to $119,500 on the T4. WJ also pays FOs $3600 a year for the loss of getting stock options. So we're up to $123,000 for a regular flying schedule of 55-65 hours a month.

If we use your math and simply average the rates of pay at ((116-91)/2)+91=103.5 for 1.5 credit, the rate is $155.25 and double time is $207 per credit.

170,000 - 123,000 = 47,000
47,000/155.25=302.738/12 =25.228
47,000/207 =227.0531/12 =18.921

So dronepiper would be flying an addition 19 to 25 Open Time CREDITS a month. Even with the assumption that these pairings are efficient without RIGS, you still looking, at most, at flying an additional 15-20 hours a month. So, actually flying a total 65-85 hours a month. Looking back, with very little Open Time picked up, I flew 513 hours in 10 months in 2023 and 532 hours throughout 2024.

Maybe flying 65-85 a month for $170,000 on a T4 is too much in your opinion. Fair enough, but let's get the math correct.

Personally, I think that T4 is never a good QOL barometer (for many of the reasons stated above).

Simplest metric is how many days worked per month. In a perfect world - and considering time away from home - one would never want to see that above 15 (for a block). I guess what people do on their days off is up to them. But if you are spending 20 or more days per month sitting on an airplane (or in a hotel) then one could argue that the work/life balance is off. Having said that, everybody is in a different phase of life. For some, the dollars are worth selling their time off. However, nobody should be at work on a scheduled day off because their base pay is too low. That is an industry/employer issue.

[Bede]

Imagine bragging about your T4 and then having to fly more than what is legal in any 1st world country.

You obviously don't understand the credit system. You're not flying that many hours- you're getting that credit.

That's how the US carriers earn so much more. The pay rates are only part of the equation. DAL and SWA end up with 110-130 hours per month CREDIT because they get RIGs, over rides, etc. It all adds up. The might only fly 60.

[ThrustIdle]

Does WJ seriously only pay 1.5 and not double for OT?

[braaap Braap]

Does WJ seriously only pay 1.5 and not double for OT?

I thought WJ got 2x, Porter is only 1.5x. We get all excited when they temporarily bump it up to 2x

[CXALE]

Does WJ seriously only pay 1.5 and not double for OT?

Troll is hungry

[JBI]

Does WJ seriously only pay 1.5 and not double for OT?

Sort of.
Like Alaska, American, Breeze, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Southwest, Sun Country and United, the starting Open Time rate is 1.5x. However, like Alaska, American, Sun Country and United, the company often puts out Open Time at 2x.

At Breeze, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue and Southwest, there isn't an option for the Company to increase the OT rate above 1.5x.

Delta provides 2x pay but only if a pilot is already over the average line value or 75 hours on the month. As I understand it, Delta's MMG is 65 hours so if you have a slow month, the first 10 credits of OT will be at straight time rate.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Imagine bragging about your T4 and then having to fly more than what is legal in any 1st world country.

You obviously don't understand the credit system. You're not flying that many hours- you're getting that credit.

That's how the US carriers earn so much more. The pay rates are only part of the equation. DAL and SWA end up with 110-130 hours per month CREDIT because they get RIGs, over rides, etc. It all adds up. The might only fly 60.

Lol Bede...you do realize WJ RIGs and your 50% OT is so far behind them it is comical. For example your 4 hrs duty credit has to be the worst in the world.

But I agree, there is a reason why US pilots get so much premium, but it isn't because they are making 50% nor have the absolutely terrible percentage of captain pay for FOs. With career stagnation so bad at WJ, you guys need to fix that. It is embarrassing

And AC is double time for all OT.

[JBI]

Lol Bede...you do realize WJ RIGs and your 50% OT is so far behind them it is comical. For example your 4 hrs duty credit has to be the worst in the world.

Delta's min duty credit is 2.0, American's is 3.0, Southwest's is 4.35, United and a few others have 5.0. Definitely something to improve for the next contract, but certainly not "worst in the world"

Our trip RIG of 1:3.75 starting Jan 1, 2026 is less than most US carriers as they have 1:3.5. Our duty RIG of 1:2 is the same as most US carriers, though they have additional provisions for back of clock duty periods. Again, room for improvement, but hard to call it comical.

That's great that AC gets 2x for all overtime.

[A310Heavy]

Does WJ seriously only pay 1.5 and not double for OT?

Sort of.
Like Alaska, American, Breeze, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Southwest, Sun Country and United, the starting Open Time rate is 1.5x. However, like Alaska, American, Sun Country and United, the company often puts out Open Time at 2x.

At Breeze, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue and Southwest, there isn't an option for the Company to increase the OT rate above 1.5x.

Delta provides 2x pay but only if a pilot is already over the average line value or 75 hours on the month. As I understand it, Delta's MMG is 65 hours so if you have a slow month, the first 10 credits of OT will be at straight time rate.

JBI...these airlines absolutely pay more than 1.5 x.

Go take a look at any US comparable document because you're doing damage to the industry by lowering a standard, which by the way absolutely crushes WestJet.

For example, any flying on a day off at Southwest pays "200% of leg value or 2 times daily rig, whichever is greater"

[A310Heavy]

Lol Bede...you do realize WJ RIGs and your 50% OT is so far behind them it is comical. For example your 4 hrs duty credit has to be the worst in the world.

Delta's min duty credit is 2.0, American's is 3.0, Southwest's is 4.35, United and a few others have 5.0. Definitely something to improve for the next contract, but certainly not "worst in the world"

Our trip RIG of 1:3.75 starting Jan 1, 2026 is less than most US carriers as they have 1:3.5. Our duty RIG of 1:2 is the same as most US carriers, though they have additional provisions for back of clock duty periods. Again, room for improvement, but hard to call it comical.

That's great that AC gets 2x for all overtime.

Lol JBI, man you're really missing key points.

Delta/American/United has a DAILY guarantee of 5:15.

Westjet is indeed worst man. Holy shit dude

[JBI]

Does WJ seriously only pay 1.5 and not double for OT?

Sort of.
Like Alaska, American, Breeze, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Southwest, Sun Country and United, the starting Open Time rate is 1.5x. However, like Alaska, American, Sun Country and United, the company often puts out Open Time at 2x.

At Breeze, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue and Southwest, there isn't an option for the Company to increase the OT rate above 1.5x.

Delta provides 2x pay but only if a pilot is already over the average line value or 75 hours on the month. As I understand it, Delta's MMG is 65 hours so if you have a slow month, the first 10 credits of OT will be at straight time rate.

JBI...these airlines absolutely pay more than 1.5 x.

Go take a look at any US comparable document because you're doing damage to the industry by lowering a standard, which by the way absolutely crushes WestJet.

For example, any flying on a day off at Southwest pays "200% of leg value or 2 times daily rig, whichever is greater"

The info is from ALPA’s EFA chart available in the economics library. If it needs to be updated let them know.

[cdnavater]

I don't see any bragging, he/she was just stating the facts.

Next, it behooves pilots to understand the following concepts:

-MMG vs Scheduling Window
-block hours vs Credit Hours
-Minimum Duty Period Credit
-RIGS (Flying vs duty vs trip)
-taxable benefits/employer contributions

When you clearly don't understand these basic concepts but then claim that someone is "flying" 110 hours a month, it ruins your whole argument.

For clarity (I'm definitely not bragging, I made more money at a previous job with way worse lifestyle and working conditions), WestJet's Scheduling Window is generally between 80-85 credits. Depending on the type of pairings you bid for and the amount of vacation, training, sick time etc you use in a month, the actual amount you fly will be less. I looked through my flights logs and in the last two years I've only had 3 months where I've actually flown more than 70 hours (with 76 being my busiest) - and that INCLUDES months where I've picked up a few Open Time Pairings. Most months I fly between 45-65 hours. I repeat, even in months where I picked up some Open Time, I've never flown more than 76 hours.

With regard to Minimum Duty Period Credit, if you fly less than 4 hours in a day, you still get paid 4 credits for the day. Same with Open Time, pick up a quick YYC-YEG-YYC where there's like 1.5 hours of flying, get paid 4 credits at 1.5x = 6 credits. Fly YYC-YXE, spend the night, fly back the next day, 2 hours of flying, 8 credits at 1.5 = 12 credits. There's 4 day listed in Open Time right now that's 15.3 hours of flying for 21.5 credit at 1.5x = 32.3 credits.

T4 income (generally, I don't know exactly what dronepiper was referencing), includes taxable benefits - such as parking, certain types of health insurance and last year, the value of the 99% off tickets that WJ employees received. Also important to note that last year, prior to the pension being put into place, the company contributed 10% of straight time earrings into either a TFSA, RRSP or unregistered account with no contribution from the pilot. That's another $8-$12,000.

So, should a first year FO make more than what they currently get? Probably.

But let's actually do some "roughly speaking' math

T4 of $170k. Average schedule - 82 credits per month (flying 55-65)

First 6 months $91 x 82 x 6 =$44,772.00
Next 6 months $116 x 82 x 6 =$57,072.00
=$102,000 for basic pay to fly 55 - 65 hours a month, but be credited for 82.

Then for straight time at 10%, that's $10,200 in employer contributions to a TFSA
=$112,000

Add another $1500 for parking taxable benefit, $3000 for insurance taxable benefit and $3000 for the 99% off fare taxable benefit and that gets us up to $119,500 on the T4. WJ also pays FOs $3600 a year for the loss of getting stock options. So we're up to $123,000 for a regular flying schedule of 55-65 hours a month.

If we use your math and simply average the rates of pay at ((116-91)/2)+91=103.5 for 1.5 credit, the rate is $155.25 and double time is $207 per credit.

170,000 - 123,000 = 47,000
47,000/155.25=302.738/12 =25.228
47,000/207 =227.0531/12 =18.921

So dronepiper would be flying an addition 19 to 25 Open Time CREDITS a month. Even with the assumption that these pairings are efficient without RIGS, you still looking, at most, at flying an additional 15-20 hours a month. So, actually flying a total 65-85 hours a month. Looking back, with very little Open Time picked up, I flew 513 hours in 10 months in 2023 and 532 hours throughout 2024.

Maybe flying 65-85 a month for $170,000 on a T4 is too much in your opinion. Fair enough, but let's get the math correct.

Just want to point out that your and most credit systems are based on flight time and duty time, for example your easy YYC-YEG-YYC pairing for 1.5 flight time has a duty time of at best around 5 hours assuming a quick turn. You are at work for around 120 hours on a 80 credit month, I use the simple 1.5 times for total duty, seems to work most months. So, adding a good credit four day pairing every month will add roughly 40 more hours of duty, a full time equivalent of a week.
While you are correct that you typically only fly 55-65 but you are spending far more time than that at work

[Bede]

Lol Bede...you do realize WJ RIGs and your 50% OT is so far behind them it is comical. For example your 4 hrs duty credit has to be the worst in the world.

Uhh, yeah. Why do you think I pointed it out?

[Bede]

Does WJ seriously only pay 1.5 and not double for OT?

Sort of.
Like Alaska, American, Breeze, Frontier, Hawaiian, JetBlue, Southwest, Sun Country and United, the starting Open Time rate is 1.5x. However, like Alaska, American, Sun Country and United, the company often puts out Open Time at 2x.

JBI...these airlines absolutely pay more than 1.5 x.

Uhh, no they don't

American

In accordance with Section 15.L., the Company may designate at any time any sequence as a
premium pay sequence using a graduated premium scale. Such sequence(s) will pay a premium rate of either fifty percent (50%), seventy-five percent (75%), or one-hundred percent (100%), over the pilot's base hourly pay rate as specified in Section 3 (total is the base rate plus 50%, 75%, or
100% of the base rate), including international override as applicable. When designating a
sequence as a premium pay sequence, the Company will identify the premium option assigned to
each sequence.

Alaska

Premium flying will be paid at the rate of one hundred fifty percent (150%).
Within each Base Position, the Company may offer premium pay at two hundred
percent (200%) for three (3) Bid Periods within a calendar year.

United

20-H-4-a The Company shall create a lineholder premium pay Trip by attaching Add Pay to an Open Trip and
designating it as a lineholder premium pay Trip. At the Company’s discretion, such Add Pay shall be fifty
percent (50%), seventy-five percent (75%) or one-hundred percent (100%) of the Trip’s pay value.

You can look up the rest.

It would be really nice if posters on this forum could stick to opinions they have some expertise at instead of just giving 0 evidence of their inane positions.

[JBI]

Just want to point out that your and most credit systems are based on flight time and duty time, for example your easy YYC-YEG-YYC pairing for 1.5 flight time has a duty time of at best around 5 hours assuming a quick turn. You are at work for around 120 hours on a 80 credit month, I use the simple 1.5 times for total duty, seems to work most months. So, adding a good credit four day pairing every month will add roughly 40 more hours of duty, a full time equivalent of a week.
While you are correct that you typically only fly 55-65 but you are spending far more time than that at work

Agreed completely.

It was more a response to those suggesting that dronepiper was "bragging' but still 'flying' 110 hours a month. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just wanting to get the proper perspective. Open Time is still working above your original schedule for sure.

For everyone it's a balance. I pick up very little Open Time as I like my time with my family. I flew with a 737 skipper who made over $600k last year (and yes, I saw his pay stub) picking up ridiculous amounts of OT. Good on him, but not what I'd choose. I made more money at my previous non-flying job but would spend around 3000 hours working a year. Sure I was in my own bed more than I am now, but I was away from home way more. I'll take my current lifestyle any day.

The internet is a funny place. Say something that's not overtly negative and somehow there's a need for hyperbole of how bad things are. I also spend a lot of time working with pilots from pilot associations across the world, not just the United States. It puts things into perspective. It makes the trolls on here sound ridiculous.

I don't think WJ is the best. It works nicely for me but we have lots of room for improvement on the next contract.