CBC coverage- Pilot’s frustrated ATC rant

[rookiepilot]

I'm not sure where you are getting the "government handout" idea from. Directly from the Transport Canada website: "NAV CANADA is a private, not-for-profit, non-share capital corporation, incorporated under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act. The entity is self-financing, receives no support from government, and relies on fees charged to users of its services."

I understood co-joe's comment to mean the government handed NavCanada a monopoly. Meaning NavCanada has no incentive to provide a good service because the customers have no other choice.

Even if that's what co-joe meant, having a "monopoly" is standard for every country worldwide. In the U.S., it's the FAA, with a smattering of contract towers operated by groups like Midwest ATC (where the pay and working conditions are abysmal even compared to the FAA - think working 8 hours in position with no breaks, all by yourself). The UK has NATS, Australia has Airservices Australia, France and Italy have has the DSNA and ENAV respectively who seem to go on strike every 6 months etc etc. At NavCanada we can't strike.

For those that keep beating the drum that NavCanada is a "monopoly" that should be abolished, I'd like to see some examples of other countries where that isn't the norm and there are multiple national-level service providers each with their own workforce, procedures and standards and see how well they function. Again, I'm not saying Nav doesn't have its own issues, but these are the same issues faced by many of the leading ANSP's worldwide.

You’re not addressing the core issues and people’s questions. You’re making excuses and acting as a PR device.

What is NavCanada’s incentive to provide excellence in service and operations?

Unless you’re claiming excellence exists today?

Why is it , from my other post, Terminals like Vancouver, Ottawa and Winnipeg cannot handle accepting GA traffic — they claim they are too busy — while sectors like New York, Florida and Washington DC have no issue with it?

[goingnowherefast]

I'm not sure where you are getting the "government handout" idea from. Directly from the Transport Canada website: "NAV CANADA is a private, not-for-profit, non-share capital corporation, incorporated under the Canada Not-for-profit Corporations Act. The entity is self-financing, receives no support from government, and relies on fees charged to users of its services."

I understood co-joe's comment to mean the government handed NavCanada a monopoly. Meaning NavCanada has no incentive to provide a good service because the customers have no other choice.

Even if that's what co-joe meant, having a "monopoly" is standard for every country worldwide. In the U.S., it's the FAA, with a smattering of contract towers operated by groups like Midwest ATC (where the pay and working conditions are abysmal even compared to the FAA - think working 8 hours in position with no breaks, all by yourself). The UK has NATS, Australia has Airservices Australia, France and Italy have has the DSNA and ENAV respectively who seem to go on strike every 6 months etc etc. At NavCanada we can't strike.

For those that keep beating the drum that NavCanada is a "monopoly" that should be abolished, I'd like to see some examples of other countries where that isn't the norm and there are multiple national-level service providers each with their own workforce, procedures and standards and see how well they function. Again, I'm not saying Nav doesn't have its own issues, but these are the same issues faced by many of the leading ANSP's worldwide.

Re-nationalize ATC. The FAA does a better job than NavCanada. I'm speaking in general, EWR this spring is an anomaly. The FAA certainly has it's problems, its obvious they're not perfect either. The FAA ATC is certainly much more airline and GA friendly than NavCanada.

[rookiepilot]

Here’s their annual report.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/annual-report-2024.pdf

Highlights are their “Goose recruitment campaign “

And DEI initiatives on “Unconscious bias training” — among a whole list of others.

Their BOD looks larger than most SP 500 companies.

Oh, and none of us are entitled to see the executives total compensation. Its not in their report.

Says AI:

The President and CEO of NAV CANADA, Raymond G. Bohn, has an annual base salary of $700,000, according to the company's corporate governance information. NAV CANADA is a private, not-for-profit company, and its compensation practices differ from those of the federal government. While the CEO's base salary is $700,000, the total compensation package, including other potential elements like bonuses or stock options, is not explicitly detailed in the provided search results.
Here's a breakdown of the information:
Base Salary: The CEO's base salary is $700,000.
Other Potential Compensation: While the base salary is public, the total compensation package (including potential bonuses, stock options, etc.) is not specified in the provided search results.
NAV CANADA's Nature: NAV CANADA is a private, not-for-profit company, which influences its compensation structure and reporting practices.

Not for profit. Depends on your POV!

[digits_]

Why is it , from my other post, Terminals like Vancouver, Ottawa and Winnipeg cannot handle accepting GA traffic — they claim they are too busy — while sectors like New York, Florida and Washington DC have no issue with it?

Because Winnipeg and Ottawa don't crash airliners into helicopters. That may sound like a bad joke but it's one of the core reasons: the relaxed rules in FAA land increase capacity but also decrease safety margins.

Vancouver does seem to be an oddball with a lot of unexplainable problems. But I suppose it makes sense that one area has to be the worst in the country. Seems like it's Vancouver.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

I understood co-joe's comment to mean the government handed NavCanada a monopoly. Meaning NavCanada has no incentive to provide a good service because the customers have no other choice.

Even if that's what co-joe meant, having a "monopoly" is standard for every country worldwide. In the U.S., it's the FAA, with a smattering of contract towers operated by groups like Midwest ATC (where the pay and working conditions are abysmal even compared to the FAA - think working 8 hours in position with no breaks, all by yourself). The UK has NATS, Australia has Airservices Australia, France and Italy have has the DSNA and ENAV respectively who seem to go on strike every 6 months etc etc. At NavCanada we can't strike.

For those that keep beating the drum that NavCanada is a "monopoly" that should be abolished, I'd like to see some examples of other countries where that isn't the norm and there are multiple national-level service providers each with their own workforce, procedures and standards and see how well they function. Again, I'm not saying Nav doesn't have its own issues, but these are the same issues faced by many of the leading ANSP's worldwide.

You’re not addressing the core issues and people’s questions. You’re making excuses and acting as a PR device.

What is NavCanada’s incentive to provide excellence in service and operations?

Unless you’re claiming excellence exists today?

Why is it , from my other post, Terminals like Vancouver, Ottawa and Winnipeg cannot handle accepting GA traffic — they claim they are too busy — while sectors like New York, Florida and Washington DC have no issue with it?

Because we have stricter rules than the U.S. which results in our skies being much safer? Like a 737, you can go down or slow down but you can't do both. With ATC, you can be super efficient and always on the knife edge of disaster (FAA), or be less efficient and much safer (NavCanada). The thing is, people will always complain about the less efficient ATC system, until it's you has the close call because of the FAA's non-ICAO standard procedures.

I don't think the argument holds that just because NavCanada is a sole-source provider, that there isn't a desire to provide excellent service. I try my best every single day, and so do the people at my unit. There are lots of organizations inside and outside of aviation where they are the only game in town (are a monopoly) and still provide excellent service. Again, I didn't say Nav doesn't have it's problems, but calling to abolish it simply because it's a "monoploy" doesn't make sense, when almost any other ATC service worldwide is experiencing the same issues.

You reference places like New York, Florida and Washington. In New York, there there have been numerous entire sector closures near EWR lately due to a horrible decision to move N90 (NY TRACON) service to PHL. Jacksonville Center is so understaffed there's flow programs not for the airports, but just the airpsace itself. There's simply not enough enroute controllers to handle the volume. Washington is so regulated that you need to file a flight plan and get a squawk code just to do circuits at your local municipal airport if it's within 30 miles of DC, and often these flights are denied due to roaming TFR's.

I'm a former airline pilot who has been on the other side of flow times, GDP issues and airspace restrictions. I know your pain, and from an outsiders perspective, it reeks of bloat and inefficiency. Now that I'm on the other side of the microphone, I can more easily see that NavCanada isn't alone in their issues, and that Nav's problems aren't unique to them. Solving the staffing issues would alleviate many of the issues you referred to. But next time you can't fly into France or Spain or Italy because they're on strike (I've been there), or are put 30 miles in trail going into Cancun and then given approach change after approach change because of volume (can't count how many time's that's happened to me), or have a 2 hour flow time to Teterboro or JFK (seems like a daily occurrence), think back to how that compares to NavCanada and you'll see it's not so bad after all.

Remember what I said at the end of my first paragraph. You'll always see the FAA as the shining city on a hill, rather than the rusting city on the edge of a cliff that it is. Sure they might get you from A to B more efficiently in your eyes, but their exhausted controllers are working 6-day MANDATORY work weeks in perpetuity, are working with RADARs and computer programs that still run on floppy disks, and are using dangerous procedures that no other countries use anywhere in the world, and for good reason. I'll take slow and steady NavCanada any day (as a controller OR as a pilot).

[altiplano]

Hyperbole.

Volume - The US is the largest volume of traffic in the world and extremely dense sectors all in less airspace. Their challenges are so much greater than those in Canada.

Even so, pull the US out though? Look at the rest of the western world? Denser airspace, more volume, better performance. It's just a fact.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

Hyperbole.

Volume - The US is the largest volume of traffic in the world and extremely dense sectors all in less airspace. Their challenges are so much greater than those in Canada.

Even so, pull the US out though? Look at the rest of the western world? Denser airspace, more volume, better performance. It's just a fact.

Sure, if having number after number after number of near catastrophes where either sheer luck or the pilot speaking up to save the day is the only thing that prevented a disaster, then sure, they have better performance.

They do more because they're forced to. Speak to any American controller and you'll soon understand that they are at their wits end, to the point that many are leaving the FAA early and moving to other countries like Australia. Yes, people are quitting their gold-plated pension where they are forced to retire at 56, and are moving to Australia because of the stresses on the system they deal with every day. Look at the ATC subreddit and you'll see what I mean.

If you look solely at numbers, sure the FAA moves the most airplanes. I agree with you on that. But they do so with unsafe procedures that every other ATC services recognizes as being far from best practice. One or two crashes, and you can rest assured that those procedures will change and those numbers you mention will drop.

[altiplano]

I reject your assessment and the data supports that there are more LOS incidents in Canada as a ratio to traffic volume.

Canada is 1/10th of the volume of airline traffic the US sees and a fraction of the GA and all in a much much larger area with virtually no traffic density. We have very few large airports and they are all spread out and still we don't move metal.

I fly regularly throughout the US, many of the "hot spots" - never feel a safety issue with FAA ATC's procedures.

It's not you personally, but everyone knows this is a fact.

[Bingo Fuel]

I reject your assessment and the data supports that there are more LOS incidents in Canada as a ratio to traffic volume.

Source?

[Braun]

I reject your assessment and the data supports that there are more LOS incidents in Canada as a ratio to traffic volume.

Canada is 1/10th of the volume of airline traffic the US sees and a fraction of the GA and all in a much much larger area with virtually no traffic density. We have very few large airports and they are all spread out and still we don't move metal.

I fly regularly throughout the US, many of the "hot spots" - never feel a safety issue with FAA ATC's procedures.

It's not you personally, but everyone knows this is a fact.

Facts please. Also, do movements per controller. We might have. 1/10 the traffic but go find out how many controllers there are here vs the USA.

[altiplano]

Full circle. That's part of it isn't it... scarcity of labour. And that isn't just because of NavCanada's recruitment screw ups.

[Daniel Cooper]

At NavCanada we can't strike.

How did we get to the point where no labour group in the air travel industry can strike?

[16SidedOffice]

they claim they are too busy — while sectors like New York, Florida and Washington DC have no issue with it?

They don't claim that they are too busy, they claim they are too short staffed. Those units in the US while also short still have a lot more people on the mics.

[pelmet]

Notam today said 45 minute delays to get through to FSS.

[pelmet]

Here’s their annual report.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/annual-report-2024.pdf

And DEI initiatives on “Unconscious bias training” — among a whole list of others.

"We endeavour to create an environment as equitable, safe and respectful as possible at
NAV CANADA so that all our employees feel seen and valued. By introducing our National Strategy
on Diversity, Equity, Inclusion and Belonging (DEIB) for FY24-28, we have taken definitive steps
towards empowering and educating employees and giving them a voice.
Broadly, our Strategy identifies six priorities: elevating DEIB discourse; developing inclusive leaders;
increasing representation; developing inclusive communities; lifting barriers for an equitable
workplace; and building trust and recognition. These components will provide the framework for our
activities over the next five years. As we are only now embarking on our DEIB journey, we must
appreciate that this process takes time and commitment to reach its full potential.
We have already begun putting these principles into action: introducing and implementing
programs, analyzing their effectiveness and refining their delivery. We anticipate even more
evolution with the growing impact of advisory councils and employee resource group training. To
date, there has been an impressive amount of activity that the Strategy has produced, including:
• Establishment of the CEO Executive DEIB Council
• Creation of the National DEIB Advisory Council
• Establishment of 2SLBGQTIA+ Employee Resource Group (ERG)
• New sponsorship for the Black Aviation Professional Network (BAPN)
• Launch of the Employee Resource Group for Women
• Delivery of unconscious bias training for the Talent team
• Delivery of inclusive leadership training for leaders
• Development of inclusive language guidelines
• Development of our first DEIB annual report
By bringing employees with diverse lived experience into these various resource groups, we are
better positioned to make meaningful changes. Looking ahead, we are preparing to roll out training
and workshops to fulfill our objectives of continuous learning, awareness building and information
sharing. While it is still early in our journey, we are committed to removing barriers, providing fair
processes that treat everyone equally, and empowering employees to share their thoughts and feel
heard. We believe we are creating a workplace where people can be themselves and feels a sense
of belonging."

Yup.....Now we know where the priorities are. The usual bigotry wrapped up as equal treatment. Meanwhile loads of delays while people are taking workshops and classes about their unconscious bias.

American controllers are way better by the way. They move traffic a lot more efficiently, even after their DEI disasters. O'Hare: Turn left heading 360, cleared takeoff 08L(aircraft turns at 400 AGL). Canada....Have to climb to 2500' agl before being allowed to turn even though you are heading in the wrong direction and there are no other aircraft around.

[Dias]

Holy crap. DEI'd to death.

[JustaCanadian]

The “B” in 2SLBGQTIA+ just assumed there are only two genders.

Unfortunately this is not inclusive enough for me.

[JungleRiot]

The “B” in 2SLBGQTIA+ just assumed there are only two genders.

Unfortunately this is not inclusive enough for me.

Don't even bother asking what the + stands for. Trust me, you don't wanna know.

[Dry Guy]

What does the B in DEIB stand for? BBYOB?

[newlygrounded]

The “B” in 2SLBGQTIA+ just assumed there are only two genders.

Unfortunately this is not inclusive enough for me.

Don't even bother asking what the + stands for. Trust me, you don't wanna know.

The horror! People who like different things than you do!

Here’s their annual report.

https://www.navcanada.ca/en/annual-report-2024.pdf

Highlights are their “Goose recruitment campaign “

And DEI initiatives on “Unconscious bias training” — among a whole list of others.

Their BOD looks larger than most SP 500 companies.

Oh, and none of us are entitled to see the executives total compensation. Its not in their report.

Says AI:

The President and CEO of NAV CANADA, Raymond G. Bohn, has an annual base salary of $700,000, according to the company's corporate governance information. NAV CANADA is a private, not-for-profit company, and its compensation practices differ from those of the federal government. While the CEO's base salary is $700,000, the total compensation package, including other potential elements like bonuses or stock options, is not explicitly detailed in the provided search results.
Here's a breakdown of the information:
Base Salary: The CEO's base salary is $700,000.
Other Potential Compensation: While the base salary is public, the total compensation package (including potential bonuses, stock options, etc.) is not specified in the provided search results.
NAV CANADA's Nature: NAV CANADA is a private, not-for-profit company, which influences its compensation structure and reporting practices.

Not for profit. Depends on your POV!

Do you feel there is no bias in the industry?

[newlygrounded]

Don't even bother asking what the + stands for. Trust me, you don't wanna know.

The horror! People who like different things than you do!

You mean like how (some) Drag Queens like to read stories to little kids? Why don’t DQ’s like to go to old folk homes and read stories to them?

I know you're shitposting but I don't get the outrage people have.

[DHC-1 Jockey]

What is relevant is the question of whether we have a situation where available controllers are being made unavailable(with loss of services) due to these training classes as well as the question of whether their hiring practices are slowing down the bringing of new fully-trained people on-line

I have never been unavailable to plug in if I was needed. All of these classes are online (whether annual recurrent training, DEI training or any other sort of training you can think of).

If there was ever a situation where I was doing an online course or CBT and I was needed in position, I'd just pause my CBT and plug in. When traffic levels die down and I'm not needed anymore, I'd resume whatever course I was doing.

[rookiepilot]

Can you show me proof of this "teaching kinks"

No one has to show you proof of anything.

No one owes you a thing here.

You don't get to decide what is valid and what isn't.

Trust that helps.

[newlygrounded]

Can you show me proof of this "teaching kinks"

No one has to show you proof of anything.

No one owes you a thing here.

You don't get to decide what is valid and what isn't.

Trust that helps.

Anything given without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.


Whether I believe you or not shouldn't matter to you, that's why it makes sense to give evidence and let anyone reading weigh the evidence.
Otherwise it just comes off as people talking out of their ass

[rookiepilot]

I don't think the argument holds that just because NavCanada is a sole-source provider, that there isn't a desire to provide excellent service. I try my best every single day, and so do the people at my unit. There are lots of organizations inside and outside of aviation where they are the only game in town (are a monopoly) and still provide excellent service. Again, I didn't say Nav doesn't have it's problems, but calling to abolish it simply because it's a "monoploy" doesn't make sense, when almost any other ATC service worldwide is experiencing the same issues.

You claim NavCanada wants to provide excellence, but what stood out to me in this article about 200 YVR flights delayed over this weekend, is how they blame everyone else. Hard to achieve excellence blaming everyone else.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british- ... -1.7573897

a spokesperson wrote in an email. "We always encourage passengers to check the status of their flight with their airlines." Helpful!


YVR directly attributed the delays to Nav Canada.

Stephen Smart, the airport's head of communications, told CBC News on Sunday that at one point on Saturday, the average delay on a flight was two hours.

Normally about 36 planes an hour can land at YVR, but at one point on Saturday that fell to 16, Smart said.


But Nav Canada said air traffic delays are rarely the fault of a single organization.

"Air traffic delays can occur for a range of reasons — weather being the most frequent, but also runway construction, infrastructure maintenance, surges in demand, and personnel resourcing," Nav Canada wrote in a statement.

"Airports, airlines, baggage handling, security screening services, and [Nav Canada] all play a part in the broader aviation system."

Hello?