Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[cdnavater]

No they don’t. You still haven’t been able to cite a source. It’s a lofty goal, but repeating it over and over isn’t going to make it true.

Yes they can. Why do you think AC filed for intervener status. Because they were told a decision could be made that impacted their interests

At least it won’t impact the interests of the AC pilots, who cares what happens to the company.

You misunderstood, AC ALPA filed for intervener status, AC the company was a named party.

[Nick678]

ACA ALPA isnt the one definding our interest, JZA ALPA is... I actually spent time talking with those involved and you are right, ACA ALPA is defending the whole roster, not only the 285.

Last I heard it needs to be a 4 party solution and I can’t see these groups agreeing to a lunch order. Likely a CIRB imposed solution, and they do have the power to modify seniority lists.

No they don’t. You still haven’t been able to cite a source. It’s a lofty goal, but repeating it over and over isn’t going to make it true.

I'll hold your hand for this - in google enter. "does CIRB have the power to modify seniority lists"

[cdnavater]

Last I heard it needs to be a 4 party solution and I can’t see these groups agreeing to a lunch order. Likely a CIRB imposed solution, and they do have the power to modify seniority lists.

No they don’t. You still haven’t been able to cite a source. It’s a lofty goal, but repeating it over and over isn’t going to make it true.

I'll hold your hand for this - in google enter. "does CIRB have the power to modify seniority lists"

You could provide the link, it’s not super easy to find precise information but all you really need to do is find the Sunwing/Westjet Pilot merger decision to see that the decision was from the CIRB.
Someone will argue that’s a merger but that is not relevant, the CIRB are the ones deciding on where people fit in that list based on arguments made on both sides, that is the important part to focus on.

[crystalpizza]

From Google's AI bot:

Yes, the Canada Industrial Relations Board (CIRB) can modify seniority lists, but typically only under specific circumstances. The CIRB's power to alter seniority lists is generally limited to situations where it is exercising its review powers, such as in cases of reconsideration or judicial review. The CIRB cannot arbitrarily modify seniority lists; any changes must be justified and aligned with the principles outlined in the relevant legislation and jurisprudence.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

Review Powers:
The CIRB has the authority to review decisions related to seniority lists, particularly when an arbitrator's decision is involved. For example, in the Air Canada/Canadian Airlines merger, the CIRB reviewed an arbitrator's decision on how to merge seniority lists and ordered the parties to negotiate a new resolution based on principles outlined by the Board.

Reconsideration and Judicial Review:
If a party believes a CIRB decision is unreasonable or contains a serious error, they can apply for reconsideration by the CIRB or for judicial review by the Federal Court of Appeal.

Limitations:
While the CIRB can review and potentially alter seniority lists, there are limitations. The Board must consider the specific circumstances, such as the need for changes due to operational reasons or valid reasons for merging bargaining units. Mere imposition of a majority will on a minority is unlikely to be sufficient justification for changing seniority provisions.

Negotiated Changes:
Seniority lists are often subject to collective bargaining and negotiated changes. The CIRB may need to assess such changes in the context of the specific bargaining unit and its evolution.

[Man_in_the_sky]

First of two meeting in July was yesterday, anyone got any info ?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Jazz STOC was shut down in YYC, rumour is the base is closing entirely as the remaining RJ’s move west. Makes sense, given that pretty much every pairing now begins with crew positioning to another base.

Hopefully the pilots can get at the least a paid move if that’s the case.

[rudder]

Jazz STOC was shut down in YYC, rumour is the base is closing entirely as the remaining RJ’s move west. Makes sense, given that pretty much every pairing now begins with crew positioning to another base.

Hopefully the pilots can get at the least a paid move if that’s the case.

In order to qualify for a paid move, you actually have to move…..

You have 24 months. The reimbursement provisions are not really that generous but better than nothing. What base will be cheaper to live than YYC?

[Inverted2]

Jazz STOC was shut down in YYC, rumour is the base is closing entirely as the remaining RJ’s move west. Makes sense, given that pretty much every pairing now begins with crew positioning to another base.

Hopefully the pilots can get at the least a paid move if that’s the case.

In order to qualify for a paid move, you actually have to move…..

You have 24 months. The reimbursement provisions are not really that generous but better than nothing. What base will be cheaper to live than YYC?

You can move 50km closer to your new base and count that as a paid move unless it’s changed.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Jazz STOC was shut down in YYC, rumour is the base is closing entirely as the remaining RJ’s move west. Makes sense, given that pretty much every pairing now begins with crew positioning to another base.

Hopefully the pilots can get at the least a paid move if that’s the case.

Even if they pay the move, unless tou switch city completely, it’s not worth it.

In order to qualify for a paid move, you actually have to move…..

You have 24 months. The reimbursement provisions are not really that generous but better than nothing. What base will be cheaper to live than YYC?

You can move 50km closer to your new base and count that as a paid move unless it’s changed.

[Nick678]

First of two meeting in July was yesterday, anyone got any info ?

Unconfirmed rumour that no deal was reached between the 4 parties.

[CaptDukeNukem]

First of two meeting in July was yesterday, anyone got any info ?

Unconfirmed rumour that no deal was reached between the 4 parties.

Shocking

[Man_in_the_sky]

First of two meeting in July was yesterday, anyone got any info ?

Unconfirmed rumour that no deal was reached between the 4 parties.

yeah, key word is ''unconfirmed'' and ''rumour''

But let's push a bit, what was the rumored agreement

[PostmasterGeneral]

First of two meeting in July was yesterday, anyone got any info ?

Unconfirmed rumour that no deal was reached between the 4 parties.

yeah, key word is ''unconfirmed'' and ''rumour''

But let's push a bit, what was the rumored agreement

There is no agreement. Slow down, read it again.

This is going to drag on for years

[cdnavater]

Unconfirmed rumour that no deal was reached between the 4 parties.

yeah, key word is ''unconfirmed'' and ''rumour''

But let's push a bit, what was the rumored agreement

There is no agreement. Slow down, read it again.

This is going to drag on for years

Two meetings scheduled for July, MEC told us if nothing good happens in the first meeting they would request the next one be switched to managed, if nothing happened you can now expect the CIRB to take over the process and do their thing.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Hopefully they resolve it soon. What does the union consider to be a “fair” cash settlement? How much are we talking here?

[Man_in_the_sky]

Hopefully they resolve it soon. What does the union consider to be a “fair” cash settlement? How much are we talking here?

If i was hired before Jan 1st, i would be illegible for an upgrade and would earn 180 000K more actually. and would spend a full 8 month more before retirement at top scale... make your own calculation, that's alot of money

[truedude]

Hopefully they resolve it soon. What does the union consider to be a “fair” cash settlement? How much are we talking here?

There is one group that is holding things up. Everyone else is more or less in agreement. However, now that they they filed for and received intervener status, means any outcome becomes binding and they have zero mechanisms available to try and bail like they did when they left CALPA.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Hopefully they resolve it soon. What does the union consider to be a “fair” cash settlement? How much are we talking here?

There is one group that is holding things up. Everyone else is more or less in agreement. However, now that they they filed for and received intervener status, means any outcome becomes binding and they have zero mechanisms available to try and bail like they did when they left CALPA.

what kind of agreement are you hinting

[PostmasterGeneral]

Hopefully they resolve it soon. What does the union consider to be a “fair” cash settlement? How much are we talking here?

If i was hired before Jan 1st, i would be illegible for an upgrade and would earn 180 000K more actually. and would spend a full 8 month more before retirement at top scale... make your own calculation, that's alot of money

Okay, but how can you prove that you’d be entitled to such a payout? You can’t base it on where you think you’d slot in on a seniority list. Even if your seniority could hold an upgrade, there’s no guarantee you’d even be successful. What about a senior guy who decided not to upgrade and stay RP instead? RP pay applies?

Are you seeing the issue here? There’s no way to quantify what you think you’re owed. There was never a guarantee that you’d even get hired, never mind get a captain seat.

That’s what the CIRB will base their ruling on. Not what you think you deserve.

[truedude]

Hopefully they resolve it soon. What does the union consider to be a “fair” cash settlement? How much are we talking here?

If i was hired before Jan 1st, i would be illegible for an upgrade and would earn 180 000K more actually. and would spend a full 8 month more before retirement at top scale... make your own calculation, that's alot of money

Okay, but how can you prove that you’d be entitled to such a payout? You can’t base it on where you think you’d slot in on a seniority list. Even if your seniority could hold an upgrade, there’s no guarantee you’d even be successful. What about a senior guy who decided not to upgrade and stay RP instead? RP pay applies?

Are you seeing the issue here? There’s no way to quantify what you think you’re owed. There was never a guarantee that you’d even get hired, never mind get a captain seat.

That’s what the CIRB will base their ruling on. Not what you think you deserve.

That's why the easiest solution is to filter everyone back to when they should have been hired, based on the requirement to hire AC had agreed to.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Do you understand what you’re saying? That would never work.

What about someone who left Jazz and went to Porter? Does AC have to call him and offer him a job? What about everyone that’s been hired at AC since then? You can’t modify their seniority, or kick them out of their seats. The CIRB knows this, and so does JAZ ALPA which is why an agreement hasn’t been reached yet.

I hope for a quick resolution for the Jazz pilots sake, so this issue can finally be put to rest, but suggesting that some sort of seniority based solution is in order is borderline delusional.

[truedude]

Do you understand what you’re saying? That would never work.

What about someone who left Jazz and went to Porter? Does AC have to call him and offer him a job? What about everyone that’s been hired at AC since then? You can’t modify their seniority, or kick them out of their seats. The CIRB knows this, and so does JAZ ALPA which is why an agreement hasn’t been reached yet.

I hope for a quick resolution for the Jazz pilots sake, so this issue can finally be put to rest, but suggesting that some sort of seniority based solution is in order is borderline delusional.

The CIRB can in fact make that change. And as far as those impacted by the change, that would be up to ACA how to deal with it. And now that ACA has intervener status, they will be forced to accept whatever the CIRB comes up with. But the CIRB has stated that Jazz's complaints are valid. The fact that we got this far is clear that something will happen. The fact of the matter was, and is, AC signed a binding agreement with Jazz and with Jazz pilots to take a certain number of pilots every year. There was nothing in that agreement that allowed them to simply decide not to follow it. It was BINDING. Those impacted need to made "whole" again, and the only way to do that is to stack them where they should have been hired based on the agreement AC signed.

[Man_in_the_sky]

seniority lost can easily be tracked, and we can see what we could hold. Now, off course, some would stay right seat, but it's potentiel gain lost still.

[cdnavater]

seniority lost can easily be tracked, and we can see what we could hold. Now, off course, some would stay right seat, but it's potentiel gain lost still.

But the point is, how do you calculate that variable, how many would stay, how many might fail the upgrade, etc, etc…
You can just blanket every pilot who could would, so what percentage do you apply?
Best case for you is the CIRB puts you on the list where you should have been, then you bid what you want and can.
Curious though, you said you could be making 180k more, years at the end are lost at top scale WB Capt, what is your lump sum number that you feel that you are owed? What number makes you less mad, I’m just curious and wonder how big that has to be?

[PostmasterGeneral]

Do you understand what you’re saying? That would never work.

What about someone who left Jazz and went to Porter? Does AC have to call him and offer him a job? What about everyone that’s been hired at AC since then? You can’t modify their seniority, or kick them out of their seats. The CIRB knows this, and so does JAZ ALPA which is why an agreement hasn’t been reached yet.

I hope for a quick resolution for the Jazz pilots sake, so this issue can finally be put to rest, but suggesting that some sort of seniority based solution is in order is borderline delusional.

The CIRB can in fact make that change. And as far as those impacted by the change, that would be up to ACA how to deal with it. And now that ACA has intervener status, they will be forced to accept whatever the CIRB comes up with. But the CIRB has stated that Jazz's complaints are valid. The fact that we got this far is clear that something will happen. The fact of the matter was, and is, AC signed a binding agreement with Jazz and with Jazz pilots to take a certain number of pilots every year. There was nothing in that agreement that allowed them to simply decide not to follow it. It was BINDING. Those impacted need to made "whole" again, and the only way to do that is to stack them where they should have been hired based on the agreement AC signed.

Just to clarify, these pilots looking for resolution currently work at AC, just with lower seniority than you’re saying they are “owed”, correct? Or are they still at Jazz?