Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[Man_in_the_sky]

seniority lost can easily be tracked, and we can see what we could hold. Now, off course, some would stay right seat, but it's potentiel gain lost still.

But the point is, how do you calculate that variable, how many would stay, how many might fail the upgrade, etc, etc…
You can just blanket every pilot who could would, so what percentage do you apply?
Best case for you is the CIRB puts you on the list where you should have been, then you bid what you want and can.
Curious though, you said you could be making 180k more, years at the end are lost at top scale WB Capt, what is your lump sum number that you feel that you are owed? What number makes you less mad, I’m just curious and wonder how big that has to be?

285 numbers across your whole carreer is HUGE, you know, you seems to be a senior capt at Jazz. It is the difference between 14 days sometimes and 9 days. it is the difference between reserve and a block. It could alse be a full year to wait for an upgrade.

To answer your question, i think anything below 150 K is a joke

[rudder]

The CIRB can only intervene if they believe there has been a breach. Either of the collective agreement(s) or interference. Recall that the AC Pilots also have CBA rights that cannot be disregarded, irrespective of potential breaches of the Jazz Pilot CBA.

The CIRB would not be involved as they are unless they see one or more breaches. Mediation is a logical step. However, there is a very low probability of reaching a four party agreement absent a significant influence campaign by the CIRB.

Next step is determining harm. Very subjective. Hard to quantify. But in this case fairly easily demonstrated. However, did Jazz have a hand in the delayed pilot movement to AC?

Last step is remedy. Recall that the CIRB holds within its mandate the objective of labour peace. Reordering of the AC pilot seniority list would represent the most disruptive outcome. So not a zero possibility but an uphill battle nonetheless. A reassignment of deemed company seniority could however be part of an ordered solution (pay progression, travel, vacation entitlement, etc)

The CIRB will not issue an order that creates more problems than it solves.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I think rudder just summed it up nicely. As much as it might anger some, upsetting 285 Jazz pilots is the the likely outcome over reordering a 5400 pilot seniority list, to include pilots who aren't even on property. It just doesn't make sense.

[Bede]

I have no dog in this fight and I feel for the Jazz guys who weren't given what they were supposed to. However, this discussion reminds me of the discussions from a couple decades ago when I was at Jazz. Guys thought they were going to get some seniority or big payout from the Barry vs Pulley lawsuit. After millions in legal bills and a trip to the SCC, the case was dismissed and the Jazz guys got $0.

The CIRB is not going to reorder the AC seniority list. If anything, there *may* me a cash settlement but it will be less than $100k, probably much less. Sorry for the bad news. Don't shoot the messenger.

[cdnavater]

I think rudder just summed it up nicely. As much as it might anger some, upsetting 285 Jazz pilots is the the likely outcome over reordering a 5400 pilot seniority list, to include pilots who aren't even on property. It just doesn't make sense.

I don’t believe any current Jazz pilots are included in the 285, the 285 are the pilots who went to AC but not when AC was obligated to take them.
So, X amount of OTS pilots were hired ahead of them even though AC had agreed to take them, 60% of the total annually. So, by Dec 31 of that year, 285 pilots at Jazz were by-passed, the reordering would only affect pilots hired after that date but before the 285 were actually hired. It wouldn’t affect junior pilots after because the relative seniority won’t change. It would only affect pilots above the 285 who were hired from Jan 1 and the last of the 285, not affecting any hired before Jan 1 at all, so not reordering the entire list.
However, not a likely outcome but hopefully settled sooner than later, we haven’t had an update after the first meeting, just rumours so far.

[truedude]

I have no dog in this fight and I feel for the Jazz guys who weren't given what they were supposed to. However, this discussion reminds me of the discussions from a couple decades ago when I was at Jazz. Guys thought they were going to get some seniority or big payout from the Barry vs Pulley lawsuit. After millions in legal bills and a trip to the SCC, the case was dismissed and the Jazz guys got $0.

The CIRB is not going to reorder the AC seniority list. If anything, there *may* me a cash settlement but it will be less than $100k, probably much less. Sorry for the bad news. Don't shoot the messenger.

Well considering the WJ pilots managed to annoy the arbitrator during the Sunwing merger, and by all accounts the Sunwing guys made out much better, I would take anything a wesjet pilot says with a grain of salt.

Also this is different due to the multiple violations at so many different levels. Contract negots interference, PAL flying in breach of contract, plus a failure to hire pilots at AC as required by a signed and binding agreement. All of these things one their own constitute a major violation, combined, it is simply insane the flagrant disregard AC showed for signed agreements, and collective bargaining.

The CIRB has not been thrilled with ACA games, and they certainly don't appear that they have been fully honest with their pilots about what has been happening. Based on what little I know.

[truedude]

I think rudder just summed it up nicely. As much as it might anger some, upsetting 285 Jazz pilots is the the likely outcome over reordering a 5400 pilot seniority list, to include pilots who aren't even on property. It just doesn't make sense.

How about this as a solution... all impacted 285 Jazz pilots get their pay rate dated to when they should have been hired. And all 285 pilots get paid through top rate of any pilot that was hired when they should have been hired in purpitery. Doesn't impact anyone at AC, but compensates all the 285 pilots, and they can then get paid the rate they could have held, but remain in a seat that gives them the lifestyle they want.

Everyone wins, no one loses!

[PostmasterGeneral]

I think rudder just summed it up nicely. As much as it might anger some, upsetting 285 Jazz pilots is the the likely outcome over reordering a 5400 pilot seniority list, to include pilots who aren't even on property. It just doesn't make sense.

How about this as a solution... all impacted 285 Jazz pilots get their pay rate dated to when they should have been hired. And all 285 pilots get paid through top rate of any pilot that was hired when they should have been hired in purpitery. Doesn't impact anyone at AC, but compensates all the 285 pilots, and they can then get paid the rate they could have held, but remain in a seat that gives them the lifestyle they want.

Everyone wins, no one loses!

Because, at Air Canada you don’t get paid as a captain until you are fully complete your command line check. They won’t give captain pay to pilots who haven’t completed the process, regardless if their seniority would be able to hold it or not. That’s just the way it is, doesn’t matter if you’re on GDIP, return to work, etc.

Look, I’m not saying you don’t have a reason to be upset, but you need to keep expectations grounded in reality. I suspect a one time cash payout that will be put to vote for the 285 affected, that the company will have calculated to get a 51% passing vote. That’s what’s likely to happen, and unfortunately something as small as $5-$6k would likely be enough to sway a majority of those affected.

[cdnavater]

I think rudder just summed it up nicely. As much as it might anger some, upsetting 285 Jazz pilots is the the likely outcome over reordering a 5400 pilot seniority list, to include pilots who aren't even on property. It just doesn't make sense.

How about this as a solution... all impacted 285 Jazz pilots get their pay rate dated to when they should have been hired. And all 285 pilots get paid through top rate of any pilot that was hired when they should have been hired in purpitery. Doesn't impact anyone at AC, but compensates all the 285 pilots, and they can then get paid the rate they could have held, but remain in a seat that gives them the lifestyle they want.

Everyone wins, no one loses!

Because, at Air Canada you don’t get paid as a captain until you are fully complete your command line check. They won’t give captain pay to pilots who haven’t completed the process, regardless if their seniority would be able to hold it or not. That’s just the way it is, doesn’t matter if you’re on GDIP, return to work, etc.

Look, I’m not saying you don’t have a reason to be upset, but you need to keep expectations grounded in reality. I suspect a one time cash payout that will be put to vote for the 285 affected, that the company will have calculated to get a 51% passing vote. That’s what’s likely to happen, and unfortunately something as small as $5-$6k would likely be enough to sway a majority of those affected.

The CIRB is not going to ask AC pilots to vote, whatever the solution is will be imposed.

[truedude]

I think rudder just summed it up nicely. As much as it might anger some, upsetting 285 Jazz pilots is the the likely outcome over reordering a 5400 pilot seniority list, to include pilots who aren't even on property. It just doesn't make sense.

How about this as a solution... all impacted 285 Jazz pilots get their pay rate dated to when they should have been hired. And all 285 pilots get paid through top rate of any pilot that was hired when they should have been hired in purpitery. Doesn't impact anyone at AC, but compensates all the 285 pilots, and they can then get paid the rate they could have held, but remain in a seat that gives them the lifestyle they want.

Everyone wins, no one loses!

Because, at Air Canada you don’t get paid as a captain until you are fully complete your command line check. They won’t give captain pay to pilots who haven’t completed the process, regardless if their seniority would be able to hold it or not. That’s just the way it is, doesn’t matter if you’re on GDIP, return to work, etc.

Look, I’m not saying you don’t have a reason to be upset, but you need to keep expectations grounded in reality. I suspect a one time cash payout that will be put to vote for the 285 affected, that the company will have calculated to get a 51% passing vote. That’s what’s likely to happen, and unfortunately something as small as $5-$6k would likely be enough to sway a majority of those affected.

It won't matter what they "usually" do. Or how things normally work. This is about righting a very intentional wrong. One that was done knowingly, and in complete disregard of an agreement Air Canada signed, with the same information ALPA had regarding how many pilots existed in Canada. And as the previous poster said. Nothing will be going to a vote. This will be an arbitrated settlement, imposed on all parties. And now that ACA has intervener status, they will have no choice but to accept what the CIRB comes up with.

And that is just for the 285 pilots that should have flowed over. Then you still have all the other issues before the CIRB regarding AC's direct interference in our bargaining, which starts blurring the lines on common employer; and you have PAL's tier 2 flying being another direct violation of a signed agreement with Jazz, one that was made when Jazz pilots agreed to absorb Sky Regional. As much as you want to hope this all just goes away, it won't.

And keep in mind, there is only one party that is being obstructionist in these proceedings at this this time... And it isn't AC.

[rudder]

Look, I’m not saying you don’t have a reason to be upset, but you need to keep expectations grounded in reality. I suspect a one time cash payout that will be put to vote for the 285 affected, that the company will have calculated to get a 51% passing vote. That’s what’s likely to happen, and unfortunately something as small as $5-$6k would likely be enough to sway a majority of those affected.

There is no vote. The CIRB may ask for an opinion but will never ask for permission.

The CIRB will issue an ‘order’. It is not subject to appeal. It is however subject to judicial review (reasonableness = no serious error and fair).

[truedude]

Look, I’m not saying you don’t have a reason to be upset, but you need to keep expectations grounded in reality. I suspect a one time cash payout that will be put to vote for the 285 affected, that the company will have calculated to get a 51% passing vote. That’s what’s likely to happen, and unfortunately something as small as $5-$6k would likely be enough to sway a majority of those affected.

There is no vote. The CIRB may ask for an opinion but will never ask for permission.

The CIRB will issue an ‘order’. It is not subject to appeal. It is however subject to judicial review (reasonableness = no serious error and fair).

And this is the risk of not coming to a negotiated settlement.... you have no idea what the CIRB might do. And again, there appears to be one party that is refusing to participate in a meaningful way, and now they will have a decision imposed if rumors are true and talks didn't reach an agreement.

But the thing with mediation, is no party is held to previous positions either, and can make any argument they want, and ask for something far greater than they may have been willing to agree to under negotiation.

Will be interesting to read everything ones this matter is settled, no matter what it is.

[rudder]

Look, I’m not saying you don’t have a reason to be upset, but you need to keep expectations grounded in reality. I suspect a one time cash payout that will be put to vote for the 285 affected, that the company will have calculated to get a 51% passing vote. That’s what’s likely to happen, and unfortunately something as small as $5-$6k would likely be enough to sway a majority of those affected.

There is no vote. The CIRB may ask for an opinion but will never ask for permission.

The CIRB will issue an ‘order’. It is not subject to appeal. It is however subject to judicial review (reasonableness = no serious error and fair).

And this is the risk of not coming to a negotiated settlement.... you have no idea what the CIRB might do. And again, there appears to be one party that is refusing to participate in a meaningful way, and now they will have a decision imposed if rumors are true and talks didn't reach an agreement.

But the thing with mediation, is no party is held to previous positions either, and can make any argument they want, and ask for something far greater than they may have been willing to agree to under negotiation.

Will be interesting to read everything ones this matter is settled, no matter what it is.

Regardless of ‘signals’ about any potential order, there is zero chance the ACA MEC will agree to a reordered list. If that is the result, then they can assert “we did not agree”. There will be an application for judicial review. And either the order will stand or the issue will be sent back to the CIRB with the errors or unfairness highlighted by the court.

The ACA MEC will argue that the ACA CBA prevails irrespective of any other agreements reached that did not include the ACA MEC as a signatory and it is unambiguous about assignment of seniority at AC (first day of PIT). That may be a winning argument or it may be a losing argument but that is likely the position taken.

Having said that, if the ACA MEC is also taking the position that there can be no latitude on either company service date or service time for pay progression, vacation entitlement, pass travel, and other areas that do not negatively impact a single other AC pilot - then it may find itself with a potential losing argument.

Other than the standard for judicial review, the CIRB is omnipotent. The AC pilots have seen evidence of this in the past.

[truedude]

There is no vote. The CIRB may ask for an opinion but will never ask for permission.

The CIRB will issue an ‘order’. It is not subject to appeal. It is however subject to judicial review (reasonableness = no serious error and fair).

And this is the risk of not coming to a negotiated settlement.... you have no idea what the CIRB might do. And again, there appears to be one party that is refusing to participate in a meaningful way, and now they will have a decision imposed if rumors are true and talks didn't reach an agreement.

But the thing with mediation, is no party is held to previous positions either, and can make any argument they want, and ask for something far greater than they may have been willing to agree to under negotiation.

Will be interesting to read everything ones this matter is settled, no matter what it is.

Regardless of ‘signals’ about any potential order, there is zero chance the ACA MEC will agree to a reordered list. If that is the result, then they can assert “we did not agree”. There will be an application for judicial review. And either the order will stand or the issue will be sent back to the CIRB with the errors or unfairness highlighted by the court.

The ACA MEC will argue that the ACA CBA prevails irrespective of any other agreements reached that did not include the ACA MEC as a signatory and it is unambiguous about assignment of seniority at AC (first day of PIT). That may be a winning argument or it may be a losing argument but that is likely the position taken.

Having said that, if the ACA MEC is also taking the position that there can be no latitude on either company service date or service time for pay progression, vacation entitlement, pass travel, and other areas that do not negatively impact a single other AC pilot - then it may find itself with a potential losing argument.

Other than the standard for judicial review, the CIRB is omnipotent. The AC pilots have seen evidence of this in the past.

Didn't work out well for AC then...

Imagine it gets discovered that what was being purposed during the talks ends up being better for AC pilots than what the final arbitration ends up being...

[Man_in_the_sky]

Can someone confirm ACA MEC got their intervenor status? Last time I checked, they asked for it but i never heard back

[truedude]

Can someone confirm ACA MEC got their intervenor status? Last time I checked, they asked for it but i never heard back

Yes they got it. They were told by the CIRB to get it from what I understand when they attempted to just walk away/were told to leave, because a decision could likely impact them and they should be at the table.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Can someone confirm ACA MEC got their intervenor status? Last time I checked, they asked for it but i never heard back

Yes they got it. They were told by the CIRB to get it from what I understand when they attempted to just walk away/were told to leave, because a decision could likely impact them and they should be at the table.

Got it !

Hopefully we can see some progress on the next meeting on the 18th !