AR program Did I read that right?

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JBI
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by JBI »

lostaviator wrote: Thu Jul 03, 2025 7:37 am I chuckled at the comparison between the AR program and letting women fly. Is there an ICAO restriction on women aviators? Weak comparison.
This is why Canadian Human Rights Law is a bit challenging. It's a multi-step process:
1- was there discrimination?

2- is there an exception?

3- If the exception is based on a bona fide occupational requirement, is there a way that a person could be reasonably accommodated without causing an employer undue hardship?

While International Regulations may play a role in determining whether there is a justified exception to discrimination, it plays no role in first determining whether there was discrimination. So yes, saying a woman or saying someone over 65 cannot stay in a job is discrimination. Now, whether there is a legal exception based, for example, on international laws comes to play in later steps.

Section 3 of the Canadian Human Rights Act outlines the prohibited grounds of discrimination:

-race,
-national or ethnic origin,
-colour,
-religion,
-age,
-sex,
-sexual orientation,
-gender identity or expression,
-marital status,
-family status,
-genetic characteristics,
-disability; and conviction for an offence for which a pardon has been granted or in respect of which a record suspension has been ordered.

Section 7 of the Act states:

7 It is a discriminatory practice, directly or indirectly, (a) to refuse to employ or continue to employ any individual [...] on a prohibited ground of discrimination.

So, forcing someone out of a job based on a prohibited grounds of discrimination, be it race, sex, disability or age, is discrimination.

The second step is a review of whether certain exceptions may apply. In particular, it may be that there is a bona fide occupational requirement. A decent example is someone with severe visual impairment. It is a bona fide occupational requirement to have vision for many jobs, so even though a visually impaired person is indeed being discriminated against due to disability (which, like age, is a prohibited ground of discrimination) it can be argued that good vision is necessary for a particular job.

This is outlined in Section 15 of the Act:

Exceptions

15 (1) It is not a discriminatory practice if

(a) any refusal, exclusion, expulsion, suspension, limitation, specification or preference in relation to any employment is established by an employer to be based on a bona fide occupational requirement;


Now, in determining if something is an exception, it is also necessary to determine whether an employer is able to reasonably accommodate an employee without undue hardship.

This is in Section 15(2) of the Act:

Accommodation of needs

(2) For any practice mentioned in paragraph (1)(a) to be considered to be based on a bona fide occupational requirement and for any practice mentioned in paragraph (1)(g) to be considered to have a bona fide justification, it must be established that accommodation of the needs of an individual or a class of individuals affected would impose undue hardship on the person who would have to accommodate those needs, considering health, safety and cost.



lostaviator wrote: Thu Jul 03, 2025 7:37 am I think WJ timed this decision perfectly. It coincides with the integration bid between us and a company they bought to focus on "the south leisure market" (more flying that AR can't do). Add in the forecast of those reaching 65+ over the next few years, I think they have a pretty good defense against any challenge.
It will be interesting to see the Company's reasons for why, NOW, having any pilots over 65 constitutes undue hardship. The timing issue is a big one, especially as we switch to more north-south flying. However, reasonable accommodation doesn't need to be an all or nothing solution. For Air Canada, based on their seniority structure/scheduling and pay, it was found that having any 65+ pilots constituted undue hardship. The most recent Gedalof decision on the issue is a strong precedent, but not binding.

For example, an airline like Canadian North couldn't rely on it - they have almost no international flights. While WestJet is definitely has more in common with AC than Canadian North does, there are some pretty big differences.

To be clear, I'm not advocating for or against a particular position, more just looking at it the legal perspective. My own opinion is that there were conceivable solutions to be negotiated that would done a better job of handling the situation instead of their current directive. The current AR program was unsustainable; there is a very good chance an arbitrator or the CHRT will agree with the Company. It's a just disappointing (though not overly surprising) that the Company decided to go the blunt force route and essentially force a challenge.
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flieslikeachicken
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by flieslikeachicken »

AR pilots can't fly over or into the US. That is a valid restriction.

There is an easy way to accommodate the restriction and that is to offer them a position at Encore. Encore flies only a few flights to the US and pilots can easily be kept off of them.

That easy solution will not be used because WestJet does not care about it's employees or customers.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by Ex DC10 Driver »

Encore is a separate company and can’t just place them there. Just like pilots at 65 at Air Canada can’t just port over to Jazz and say I’m here now move over.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by mantogasrsrwy »

Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Thu Jul 10, 2025 8:40 am Encore is a separate company and can’t just place them there. Just like pilots at 65 at Air Canada can’t just port over to Jazz and say I’m here now move over.

Chicken knows that. It's just more whine with his cheese.
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Last edited by mantogasrsrwy on Fri Jul 11, 2025 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by Lurch »

Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Thu Jul 10, 2025 8:40 am Encore is a separate company and can’t just place them there. Just like pilots at 65 at Air Canada can’t just port over to Jazz and say I’m here now move over.
Encore pilots go to WJ all the time, without interview like AC, so why can't it work the other way?
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by cdnavater »

Lurch wrote: Fri Jul 11, 2025 8:18 am
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Thu Jul 10, 2025 8:40 am Encore is a separate company and can’t just place them there. Just like pilots at 65 at Air Canada can’t just port over to Jazz and say I’m here now move over.
Encore pilots go to WJ all the time, without interview like AC, so why can't it work the other way?
Because, they are now a separate list for those hired after a certain date and if the AR pilot were to go there and keep their seniority, that would bump down literally every single Encore pilot!
Also, pay would need to be figured out, even at top scale Encore, it would be a pay cut for most, if not all AR pilots.
So, both MECs would need to sit down and negotiate with WJ, some kind of one for one transfer to mainline, each AR going would guarantee an Encore pilot flow.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by lostaviator »

cdnavater wrote: Fri Jul 11, 2025 8:28 am
Lurch wrote: Fri Jul 11, 2025 8:18 am
Ex DC10 Driver wrote: Thu Jul 10, 2025 8:40 am Encore is a separate company and can’t just place them there. Just like pilots at 65 at Air Canada can’t just port over to Jazz and say I’m here now move over.
Encore pilots go to WJ all the time, without interview like AC, so why can't it work the other way?
Because, they are now a separate list for those hired after a certain date and if the AR pilot were to go there and keep their seniority, that would bump down literally every single Encore pilot!
Also, pay would need to be figured out, even at top scale Encore, it would be a pay cut for most, if not all AR pilots.
So, both MECs would need to sit down and negotiate with WJ, some kind of one for one transfer to mainline, each AR going would guarantee an Encore pilot flow.
The wja alpa mec doesn't want that. The company actually wants common employer but it's the union refusing.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by Zanzibar »

Is that from a good source? I haven’t heard that Wja wants common employer.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by JBI »

Zanzibar wrote: Mon Jul 14, 2025 3:25 pm Is that from a good source? I haven’t heard that Wja wants common employer.
I'm sure the company would love common employer but only IF it doesn't cost them more money. They want to have their cake and eat it too. They want to fix their staffing at Encore but don't want to pay for it.

If done properly, bringing Encore pilots onto the WJ OC and bargaining unit would actually cost the company a significant amount in Years of Service pay over the course of their career. For example, if a pilot who was at Encore for 7 years joins WJ at the 8th step instead of the first step, that's a difference of $74.58 a credit. Over the course of a year, that's $69,359 in base pay. While the difference does decrease, for 12 years (til top of pay scale) pilots would be making significantly more money if their Encore years of service counted.

To be clear,I WANT THAT for our pilots and for me. In my own case, I would be owed a minimum of $390,000 if I was able to bring over my Encore Years of Service to WestJet. If took that as an average for even 300 pilots, that's $117,000,000 of additional pay roll costs. So, while I think that company should definitely pay and I would love it, it's understandable why the company is resistant to pay YOS to Encore.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by daedalusx »

lol this is company that refuses to honor the Sunwing capts length of service … there’s absolutely not a chance they’ll ever count encore yos onto the mainline scale.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by nohojob »

daedalusx wrote: Tue Jul 15, 2025 9:10 pm lol this is company that refuses to honor the Sunwing capts length of service … there’s absolutely not a chance they’ll ever count encore yos onto the mainline scale.
Sadly you're right.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by cdnavater »

daedalusx wrote: Tue Jul 15, 2025 9:10 pm lol this is company that refuses to honor the Sunwing capts length of service … there’s absolutely not a chance they’ll ever count encore yos onto the mainline scale.
Curious what you mean by that, how are they not honouring Sunwing YOS?
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by nohojob »

When a wj first officer upgrades after x years of service he goes directly to x years on the capt payscale.

Swg capt are put on the captain payscale according to the number of years as a captain.

So a wj fo upgrading today after 10 years of company will be on the 10 year capt payscale.

A Swg captain who upgraded last year just before joining wj, would on the first year capt payscale

So to put some numbers on it:

The wj guy makes about 280$ an hour while the swg guy about 200$ an hour with the same YOS.

There is now 2 payscales for captains.

The union is grieving this.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by daedalusx »

nohojob wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 6:01 am When a wj first officer upgrades after x years of service he goes directly to x years on the capt payscale.

Swg capt are put on the captain payscale according to the number of years as a captain.

So a wj fo upgrading today after 10 years of company will be on the 10 year capt payscale.

A Swg captain who upgraded last year just before joining wj, would on the first year capt payscale

So to put some numbers on it:

The wj guy makes about 280$ an hour while the swg guy about 200$ an hour with the same YOS.

There is now 2 payscales for captains.

The union is grieving this.
Wait but it gets better …

Onex/Westjet only recognizes Sunwings Capt yos at their position (Capt)

But … if they get demoted (like the ~40 who lost their seat on this last bid) theeeeen they get their full total active service recognized … totally not schizo … and on top of it, they gaslight the pilot group by saying they’re doing this to “reduce the impact” to the affected crew :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by planenuts »

Similar thing is happening to the Sunwing mechanics right now. Their union is also grieving it.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by cdnavater »

nohojob wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 6:01 am When a wj first officer upgrades after x years of service he goes directly to x years on the capt payscale.

Swg capt are put on the captain payscale according to the number of years as a captain.

So a wj fo upgrading today after 10 years of company will be on the 10 year capt payscale.

A Swg captain who upgraded last year just before joining wj, would on the first year capt payscale

So to put some numbers on it:

The wj guy makes about 280$ an hour while the swg guy about 200$ an hour with the same YOS.

There is now 2 payscales for captains.

The union is grieving this.
Wow, I thought you were under one contract, I think the grievance will be successful!
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by phenix »

cdnavater wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 8:17 am
nohojob wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 6:01 am When a wj first officer upgrades after x years of service he goes directly to x years on the capt payscale.

Swg capt are put on the captain payscale according to the number of years as a captain.

So a wj fo upgrading today after 10 years of company will be on the 10 year capt payscale.

A Swg captain who upgraded last year just before joining wj, would on the first year capt payscale

So to put some numbers on it:

The wj guy makes about 280$ an hour while the swg guy about 200$ an hour with the same YOS.

There is now 2 payscales for captains.

The union is grieving this.
Wow, I thought you were under one contract, I think the grievance will be successful!
We are. And the contract says “A Pilot shall be paid based on their Length of Service as a Pilot with the Company”
And WJ argues that before being with the company, Sunwing pilots were not with the company. Same argument has been made with Encore, which is why their pay resets when they join WJ. There are already 2 pay scales, nothing new.

The grievance might be successful, but things are not that simple
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by flieslikeachicken »

It is absolutely possible to allow AR pilots into Encore; merge the companies.

The problems that WestJet has are caused by their desire to spend a dollar to save a penny.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by MaxAuto »

Merging mainline and a regional is not the North American standard.

They can retire and apply for direct entry captain off the street and respect seniority at Encore.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by cdnavater »

phenix wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 9:40 am
cdnavater wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 8:17 am
nohojob wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 6:01 am When a wj first officer upgrades after x years of service he goes directly to x years on the capt payscale.

Swg capt are put on the captain payscale according to the number of years as a captain.

So a wj fo upgrading today after 10 years of company will be on the 10 year capt payscale.

A Swg captain who upgraded last year just before joining wj, would on the first year capt payscale

So to put some numbers on it:

The wj guy makes about 280$ an hour while the swg guy about 200$ an hour with the same YOS.

There is now 2 payscales for captains.

The union is grieving this.
Wow, I thought you were under one contract, I think the grievance will be successful!
We are. And the contract says “A Pilot shall be paid based on their Length of Service as a Pilot with the Company”
And WJ argues that before being with the company, Sunwing pilots were not with the company. Same argument has been made with Encore, which is why their pay resets when they join WJ. There are already 2 pay scales, nothing new.

The grievance might be successful, but things are not that simple
Again, wow! Doesn’t surprise me though, what was the Sunwing contract regarding YOS before the merger?
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by nohojob »

cdnavater wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 1:29 pm
phenix wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 9:40 am
cdnavater wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 8:17 am

Wow, I thought you were under one contract, I think the grievance will be successful!
We are. And the contract says “A Pilot shall be paid based on their Length of Service as a Pilot with the Company”
And WJ argues that before being with the company, Sunwing pilots were not with the company. Same argument has been made with Encore, which is why their pay resets when they join WJ. There are already 2 pay scales, nothing new.

The grievance might be successful, but things are not that simple
Again, wow! Doesn’t surprise me though, what was the Sunwing contract regarding YOS before the merger?
With Sunwing you were going to year 1 capt scale when you were upgrading regardless of your YOS.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by mantogasrsrwy »

flieslikeachicken wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 10:06 am It is absolutely possible to allow AR pilots into Encore; merge the companies.

The problems that WestJet has are caused by their desire to spend a dollar to save a penny.
Judging by your posts, WestJet sure has made you bitter. Why don't you just go to Air Canada to help the tears?
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by Canadaflyer46 »

mantogasrsrwy wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 5:36 pm
flieslikeachicken wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 10:06 am It is absolutely possible to allow AR pilots into Encore; merge the companies.

The problems that WestJet has are caused by their desire to spend a dollar to save a penny.
Judging by your posts, WestJet sure has made you bitter. Why don't you just go to Air Canada to help the tears?
Not bitter, accurate. They have destroyed the brand and turned the place into an embarrassment.
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Last edited by Canadaflyer46 on Thu Jul 17, 2025 1:23 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by flieslikeachicken »

mantogasrsrwy wrote: Wed Jul 16, 2025 5:36 pm Judging by your posts, WestJet sure has made you bitter. Why don't you just go to Air Canada to help the tears?
WestJet did make me bitter and I did leave. I shed no tears for making the move once I realized that there was nothing left for me at Team Teal.
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Re: AR program Did I read that right?

Post by daedalusx »

I sure hope he’s a MLO or some other kind of paid management shill. Imagine sweeping for this exec team for free.

LE CONCIERGE SANS SALAIRE
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