Flight Attendant strike vote opens on July 28th

[itsgrosswhatinet]

https://www.travelmarketreport.com/air/ ... -next-week

[co-joe]

"Unpaid work won't fly" This movement alone, could literally change our entire industry if the AC FAs stick to their guns.

[Inverted2]

Could backfire on them as well. I get that they should be compensated for the boarding and deplaning process but the company could argue sure we will pay you an hourly wage from check in till check out but it won’t be close to what your flight credit pay is now.

[cdnavater]

Could backfire on them as well. I get that they should be compensated for the boarding and deplaning process but the company could argue sure we will pay you an hourly wage from check in till check out but it won’t be close to what your flight credit pay is now.

It would greatly benefit junior FAs doing narrow body domestic or short haul work, even at reduced wages being paid for all the time at work will be a benefit.
I’ve always said we are paid for about half the time actually spent at work, so if you make 200/hr at a full 40 hours per week you would double our pay and then some. People don’t get that a credit hour system full time is only 1020/year at 85 vs 2080 at 40/week. So take all pilot hourly and cut them in half, you have our annual income. The only difference is a wide body crew typically works less days in a month.
The FAs will not have it both ways, if they want to be paid for all the hours at work, the hourly will come down and the senior FAs will be the most harmed by this, they will have to work more days to keep the same income level.
Of course, if they are able to keep both, this will be a game changer for the industry, I would gladly trade a credit system for hours spent at work, this will force more productive pairings, they won’t like paying us to sit around airports for 3-4 hours waiting for the next flight!

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Some of them might actually be making less than minimum wage under the current system.

[Man_in_the_sky]

The easiest way to account for unpaid work would be to have a flat boarding premium. Call it .7 credit for every boarding, increase their wage a bit and you’ll have 51% of the group happy.

Some of them are asking more than the pilot group got, c

And paid from checkin to checkout…
That will never happen.

[digits_]

The easiest way to account for unpaid work would be to have a flat boarding premium. Call it .7 credit for every boarding, increase their wage a bit and you’ll have 51% of the group happy.

Some of them are asking more than the pilot group got, c

And paid from checkin to checkout…
That will never happen.

No, the easiest way to pay employees is to pay them how 99% of the companies pay their employees: for the time spent at work.
Wild idea, I know...

[CaptDukeNukem]

The easiest way to account for unpaid work would be to have a flat boarding premium. Call it .7 credit for every boarding, increase their wage a bit and you’ll have 51% of the group happy.

Some of them are asking more than the pilot group got, c

And paid from checkin to checkout…
That will never happen.

No, the easiest way to pay employees is to pay them how 99% of the companies pay their employees: for the time spent at work.
Wild idea, I know...

But then they will realize how little they get paid and quit lol. Complicated math keeps them droning around like robots.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

There would be less incentive to get the cabin secured and ready for pushback on time if they were paid by the at-work hour. That could be a real issue and frequently occurs with employees who aren't under direct manager supervision.

It could lead to conflict with the pilots too, who are anxious to get going. That could be easily avoided by just paying pilots using the same at-work hours system.

Personally I would like that to happen as it would relieve a lot of angst about all the before pushback delays we deal with. To me it feels like those delays are getting more and more frequent each year. Climate change is going to lead to more red alerts. Changing demographics is going to lead to more new trainees. The ever increasing cost of living and no increase in pay is going to lead to more jaded workers in every department.

[Man_in_the_sky]

There would be less incentive to get the cabin secured and ready for pushback on time if they were paid by the at-work hour. That could be a real issue and frequently occurs with employees who aren't under direct manager supervision.

It could lead to conflict with the pilots too, who are anxious to get going. That could be easily avoided by just paying pilots using the same at-work hours system.

Personally I would like that to happen as it would relieve a lot of angst about all the before pushback delays we deal with. To me it feels like those delays are getting more and more frequent each year. Climate change is going to lead to more red alerts. Changing demographics is going to lead to more new trainees. The ever increasing cost of living and no increase in pay is going to lead to more jaded workers in every department.

Pilots are okay with the credit system.. of course everything can always improve, but i’m confident boarding pay was super low in pilot’s prioritu

[rudder]

The easiest way to account for unpaid work would be to have a flat boarding premium. Call it .7 credit for every boarding, increase their wage a bit and you’ll have 51% of the group happy.

Some of them are asking more than the pilot group got, c

And paid from checkin to checkout…
That will never happen.

A partial credit for FA’s for boarding time already exists at one or more US majors. This is not a new concept and AC is not the first carrier having to address this issue at the FA bargaining table.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Pilots are okay with the credit system..

Well that settles it guys.

[Stu Pidasso]

"Unpaid Work Won't Fly" is a nice little catch phrase.

Bottom line is your T4 and this is the way Pilots and FA's have always been paid at AC. How about if you want to be paid from Check-in to Check-Out, we'll simply reduce your hourly wage and your T4 will remain unchanged.

Top pay is somewhere around $85 / hour, a Flight Attendant is not worth this on straight time.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Pilots are okay with the credit system..

Well that settles it guys.

Unsure what you are refering to ?

[Me262]

The easiest way to account for unpaid work would be to have a flat boarding premium. Call it .7 credit for every boarding, increase their wage a bit and you’ll have 51% of the group happy.

Some of them are asking more than the pilot group got, c

And paid from checkin to checkout…
That will never happen.

And pilots should get a .7 for every boarding as well, we don't go in and twiddle our thumbs in the cockpit, and we are expected to be there just as early as the FA's doing our checks.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

How about if you want to be paid from Check-in to Check-Out, we'll simply reduce your hourly wage and your T4 will remain unchanged.

Okay let's do that then. If there is no change to the T4 the company won't have any problem with it right?

[rudder]

"Unpaid Work Won't Fly" is a nice little catch phrase.

Bottom line is your T4 and this is the way Pilots and FA's have always been paid at AC. How about if you want to be paid from Check-in to Check-Out, we'll simply reduce your hourly wage and your T4 will remain unchanged.

Top pay is somewhere around $85 / hour, a Flight Attendant is not worth this on straight time.

There are provisions of the CLC that could lend credence to a ULP complaint. So, the matter can be dealt with at the bargaining table or at the CIRB. CUPE wants it settled at the bargaining table. AC? TBD.

A settlement at the CUPE bargaining table does not necessarily mean precedent for the pilots. To be honest, the AC Pilot CBA has many more weak areas than this one.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Complex systems won't survive the competence crisis. We need to start getting paid for delays as the majority of them occur before pushback. It's only going to get more and more common.

[goingnowherefast]

Complex systems won't survive the competence crisis. We need to start getting paid for delays as the majority of them occur before pushback. It's only going to get more and more common.

1/2 rate pay from the minute the last pax walks on, or for every delay minute past scheduled departure. Whichever is more.

We're not sitting up there twiddling our thumbs. We're running through the MEL with MX. We're dealing with a last minute ATC reroute, dispatch issues, W&B, etc. FAs have it worse, since every entitled pax is asking them a million irrelevant questions.

0.7 boarding credit pay per leg.

[Me262]

Complex systems won't survive the competence crisis. We need to start getting paid for delays as the majority of them occur before pushback. It's only going to get more and more common.

1/2 rate pay from the minute the last pax walks on, or for every delay minute past scheduled departure. Whichever is more.

We're not sitting up there twiddling our thumbs. We're running through the MEL with MX. We're dealing with a last minute ATC reroute, dispatch issues, W&B, etc. FAs have it worse, since every entitled pax is asking them a million irrelevant questions.

0.7 boarding credit pay per leg.

Sorry, pilots must wait until the next world class contract.

[TalkingPie]

I'm pretty ambivalent on the check-in-to-check-out pay issue. On one hand, I like the idea that a worker gets paid for all the time that they're at work. AC keeps adding more duties and unpaid time at work (check in time is typically 30 minutes before boarding, when it sometimes takes nearly that long to get from the comm center to the gate, let alone all the document prep, briefings, safety checks, and galley prep that need to be done during that time), so this would push back on that. On the other hand, I think that a new pay scheme would leave a lot of room for management to renegotiate and game the system for their benefit.

To wit: in exchange for a 10 year contract in 2015, management offered a no-layoff clause. COVID hit, they used the "force majeure" clause and not only laid two thirds of cabin crew off, they were also the only Canadian airline who refused CEWS, which would've had the government paying everyone 75% of their salary. They also offered an inflation clause, which stipulated that if inflation exceeded 3%, salaries would be renegotiated. After the layoff when inflation was hovering around 7%, management showed up to negotiate, but made demands of cabin crew instead of offering raises. Arbitrator deemed that that met the letter of the clause.

At the end of the day what matters is how much money makes its way into my bank account for the amount of work I do. Boosting the per-hour rate in the current scheme could accomplish that just fine, just as it did for AC pilots.

I think that the success of the "Unpaid work won't fly" campaign - and CUPE itself has said this - is in how it engages the public. The public neither knows nor cares how air crew's pay schemes work; if they heard that a new flight attendant makes $30/hr, they'd think that was very generous. By contrast, everyone can relate to the frustration of being at work while not actively being paid.

The Hail Mary is that the push to change pay legislation would be successful, making it mandatory for the company to pay for all time crew are at work. I think that would put management on the back foot in negotiating new pay rates. It's unlikely that it'll ever go through, but the NDP did make some noise about it.

[altiplano]

AC FAs already have duty day -4hrs which helps reduce unpaid time at work in the event of delays and 50% premium for DOT which is 50% pay override on the whole day if going over 13 hrs. Perhaps they could get duty day -3.5 as an improvement?

There is no way AC agrees to current rates + 40% raises + check in to check out paid hourly and they know an arbitrator wouldn't impose such a sweeping change either.

Then you have cost increases at AC and their stock getting hammered in their Q2 financials, they need to show that they can hold on cost discipline. Plus the Canadian economy in general is caving in.

FAs still have to deal with the LCC in their contact and the poor terms there too...

I predict something around 8/4/3/2, starting rate bumps up to step 2 on FA scale, plus rouge FAs go to mainline, plus some expense improvement, plus a 5K signing bonus. And that might be generous... it would pass with 75% support.

I worked with a crew last week that thought a strike would be a bit of a paid vacation... They were surprised when I told them they don't get paid if they go on strike. That changed their view of things pretty quick. Lots of FAs are still working overtime and not tuned in on what's going on. There isn't much solidarity from what I'm seeing.

Wish them the best though...

[rooster]

AC FAs already have duty day -4hrs which helps reduce unpaid time at work in the event of delays and 50% premium for DOT which is 50% pay override on the whole day if going over 13 hrs. Perhaps they could get duty day -3.5 as an improvement?

There is no way AC agrees to current rates + 40% raises + check in to check out paid hourly and they know an arbitrator wouldn't impose such a sweeping change either.

Then you have cost increases at AC and their stock getting hammered in their Q2 financials, they need to show that they can hold on cost discipline. Plus the Canadian economy in general is caving in.

FAs still have to deal with the LCC in their contact and the poor terms there too...

I predict something around 8/4/3/2, starting rate bumps up to step 2 on FA scale, plus rouge FAs go to mainline, plus some expense improvement, plus a 5K signing bonus. And that might be generous... it would pass with 75% support.

I worked with a crew last week that thought a strike would be a bit of a paid vacation... They were surprised when I told them they don't get paid if they go on strike. That changed their view of things pretty quick. Lots of FAs are still working overtime and not tuned in on what's going on. There isn't much solidarity from what I'm seeing.

Wish them the best though...

What is DOT?

[Man_in_the_sky]

A bonus to encourage them to work longer, even if tired. Its an incentive to work fatigued for a few bucks. Often FA will encourage pilots to cause delay so they can have that bonus.

“Hey guys, if we land past 23:04, we’re getting dot”

[altiplano]

AC FAs already have duty day -4hrs which helps reduce unpaid time at work in the event of delays and 50% premium for DOT which is 50% pay override on the whole day if going over 13 hrs. Perhaps they could get duty day -3.5 as an improvement?

There is no way AC agrees to current rates + 40% raises + check in to check out paid hourly and they know an arbitrator wouldn't impose such a sweeping change either.

Then you have cost increases at AC and their stock getting hammered in their Q2 financials, they need to show that they can hold on cost discipline. Plus the Canadian economy in general is caving in.

FAs still have to deal with the LCC in their contact and the poor terms there too...

I predict something around 8/4/3/2, starting rate bumps up to step 2 on FA scale, plus rouge FAs go to mainline, plus some expense improvement, plus a 5K signing bonus. And that might be generous... it would pass with 75% support.

I worked with a crew last week that thought a strike would be a bit of a paid vacation... They were surprised when I told them they don't get paid if they go on strike. That changed their view of things pretty quick. Lots of FAs are still working overtime and not tuned in on what's going on. There isn't much solidarity from what I'm seeing.

Wish them the best though...

What is DOT?