Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[NSFly]

I agree with you, it’s an either or situation which is also one of the reasons it’s difficult to attract any experienced pilots to Jazz, the future is a big unknown!
The ULP decision could make Jazz more attractive to AC for purchase, like you say for the human assets, if the pilot wages go to what was rumoured(not really a rumour, confirmed by someone in the know at 42%) they could save a ton of money integrating the operation.
Time will tell!

42% more than it currently is? Across the board? How credible is that?

No, 42% was the original negotiated increase, we ended up with 25ish to 40%, 40% year 1 and 2 I believe, then 25 at the top.
I calculated the 42% increase back when this all went down and I’d be at 233/hr now instead of the 193 I’m at

How are you at 193 when the top of the MOS7 scale for this year is $175.99?

[cdnavater]

42% more than it currently is? Across the board? How credible is that?

No, 42% was the original negotiated increase, we ended up with 25ish to 40%, 40% year 1 and 2 I believe, then 25 at the top.
I calculated the 42% increase back when this all went down and I’d be at 233/hr now instead of the 193 I’m at

How are you at 193 when the top of the MOS7 scale for this year is $175.99?

Instructor

[hithere]

No, 42% was the original negotiated increase, we ended up with 25ish to 40%, 40% year 1 and 2 I believe, then 25 at the top.
I calculated the 42% increase back when this all went down and I’d be at 233/hr now instead of the 193 I’m at

How are you at 193 when the top of the MOS7 scale for this year is $175.99?

Instructor

Top scale only got 15% of actual salary increase. If you factor in the big reduction in benefit premiums I guess it was closer to 25% but strictly wage % increase was only 15% for those with more than 14 years of service

[cdnavater]

How are you at 193 when the top of the MOS7 scale for this year is $175.99?

Instructor

Top scale only got 15% of actual salary increase. If you factor in the big reduction in benefit premiums I guess it was closer to 25% but strictly wage % increase was only 15% for those with more than 14 years of service

Yah, I went back and edited but you’re correct, this year July 2025 vs MOS 5 July 2025 is about 17.3% difference. And this year based on MOS 5 the 42% would be 233/hr vs 193/hr for top scale TP, a little more for ACPs.
As for what the MEC is hopefully looking for, at the very least what was negotiated with back pay! The flow is tricky because the harm is not easily put into dollars. The PAL flying, I wouldn’t even begin to know how they might calculate that harm, certainly some personal animosity about that, very bad faith behaviour! This should be strongly punished, send a message to corporations about their behaviour!

[Man_in_the_sky]

PAL flying doesnt affect much when you cant staff your own flights.

[truedude]

PAL flying doesnt affect much when you cant staff your own flights.

Yes it does. First, the reason we can't do the flying is because AC didn’t follow flow, hurting our ability to attract and retain pilots. Second, it sends a message that AC won't abide by agreements, and throws uncertainty into employment at Jazz, particularly in the long term.

All PAL did was compound the failure for AC to follow flow, making it more challenging to attract and hire pilots at Jazz. Combine this with AC refusing to compensate pilots appropriately based on the reality of the pilot market, and you have the mess we see today. All of it linked to decisions made by AC management, and then compounded by every stupid short cited decision that followed.

[PostmasterGeneral]

PAL flying doesnt affect much when you cant staff your own flights.

Yes it does. First, the reason we can't do the flying is because AC didn’t follow flow, hurting our ability to attract and retain pilots.

if you want some sort of restitution, you'll need to prove that to the CIRB. Good luck doing that. There's no way to prove that pilots would rather go work at Encore, Porter, PAL, etc leaving Jazz short staffed strictly because of a flow agreement. Not everyone wants to work at AC you know...

It's not what you think, it's what you can prove, and its all conjecture so far.

[cdnavater]

PAL flying doesnt affect much when you cant staff your own flights.

Yes it does. First, the reason we can't do the flying is because AC didn’t follow flow, hurting our ability to attract and retain pilots.

if you want some sort of restitution, you'll need to prove that to the CIRB. Good luck doing that. There's no way to prove that pilots would rather go work at Encore, Porter, PAL, etc leaving Jazz short staffed strictly because of a flow agreement. Not everyone wants to work at AC you know...

It's not what you think, it's what you can prove, and its all conjecture so far.

It seems to be the argument the MEC is making, all of it combined to steer pilots away from Jazz and Jazz pilots left because of it. You wouldn’t have to look too hard to find examples of pilots saying it was quicker to AC going elsewhere, I don’t think it’s too hard to get someone to believe that AC’s actions led to Jazz being understaffed!
Proof, they improved the wages in a contract that was closed to those type of improvements for 12 more years, the contract Jazz agreed to, again rumoured at 42% across the board and AC’s action of rejecting it, is a literal smoking gun.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Rumoured 42%.

You’d have to prove this, wich is covered by an NDA.

[GIVCE!]

That NDA surely would be expired by now as it did not hold any ‘trade secrets’ and would not have indefinite obligations. The company would have records of their original offer and the CIRB would be compelled to take that into account as evidence. Just my humble, non legal, probably bullshit opinion…lol but the little guy….

[cdnavater]

Rumoured 42%.

You’d have to prove this, wich is covered by an NDA.

I don’t have to prove anything, I have had confirmation from someone who absolutely would know but that is why I still say “rumour”, since I can’t prove it. Once the dust settles, the truth about that will be available!

[Man_in_the_sky]

That NDA surely would be expired by now as it did not hold any ‘trade secrets’ and would not have indefinite obligations. The company would have records of their original offer and the CIRB would be compelled to take that into account as evidence. Just my humble, non legal, probably bullshit opinion…lol but the little guy….

I’ll be honest, my legal background is also limited. I was under the impression thaf it could never be made public.

[truedude]

That NDA surely would be expired by now as it did not hold any ‘trade secrets’ and would not have indefinite obligations. The company would have records of their original offer and the CIRB would be compelled to take that into account as evidence. Just my humble, non legal, probably bullshit opinion…lol but the little guy….

I’ll be honest, my legal background is also limited. I was under the impression thaf it could never be made public.

The CIRB can override NDAs anyways. You don't get to screw employees over and then try to hide behind an NDA.

[rudder]

That NDA surely would be expired by now as it did not hold any ‘trade secrets’ and would not have indefinite obligations. The company would have records of their original offer and the CIRB would be compelled to take that into account as evidence. Just my humble, non legal, probably bullshit opinion…lol but the little guy….

I’ll be honest, my legal background is also limited. I was under the impression thaf it could never be made public.

The CIRB can override NDAs anyways. You don't get to screw employees over and then try to hide behind an NDA.

NDA’s are literally the reason that these matters are before the CIRB.

And no - nobody can invoke the ‘fifth amendment’ and hide behind an NDA in a CIRB proceeding. That includes both negotiations for a CBA or details of the CPA.

Having said that, the Jazz and predecessor pilot groups track record before third parties seeking remedy, relief, or redress is not great. Those hoping for a home run stand to be deeply disappointed.

In the end, AC will manage the situation. A sale of Jazz (just Jazz Aviation, not CHR) to AC remains a possibility which would necessarily terminate the CPA, void CPA guarantees in the CBA, and leave the Jazz pilots with just the ‘change of control’ protections from the CBA and ‘follow the work’ provisions of the Federal Labour Code. And AC will continue to seek out other vendors for Express flying.

The ‘Jazz til 2035’ guarantees still exist, but are more tenuous.

[Stu Pidasso]

Unfortunately we still have ex-Jazz Pilots that are convinced they will move 1000 numbers up the seniority list. Along with that belief, comes a massive chip on their shoulder.

Hopefully you get some sort of monetary compensation, but the seniority list is not changing.

[truedude]

Unfortunately we still have ex-Jazz Pilots that are convinced they will move 1000 numbers up the seniority list. Along with that belief, comes a massive chip on their shoulder.

Hopefully you get some sort of monetary compensation, but the seniority list is not changing.

You don't know that. No one does. AC pilots have standing for a reason, it means the outcome could impact them, and thus they have a voice at the table. If they were just discussing compensation, AC pilots would have no reason to be involved.

[Stu Pidasso]

AC ALPA are there to support you in receiving compensation and to protect the rest of the Pilots from any stupidity from the CIRB.

[altiplano]

Unfortunately we still have ex-Jazz Pilots that are convinced they will move 1000 numbers up the seniority list. Along with that belief, comes a massive chip on their shoulder.

Hopefully you get some sort of monetary compensation, but the seniority list is not changing.

You don't know that. No one does. AC pilots have standing for a reason, it means the outcome could impact them, and thus they have a voice at the table. If they were just discussing compensation, AC pilots would have no reason to be involved.

ACA ALPA have observer status, not a voice at the table. They are involved so they can get ahead of it if it were to come to a point that it affects AC members. The dispute is with Jazz though, not AC pilots, so it's not going to happen.

If there really are ex-Jazz pilots here that believe they will violate our collective agreement and seniority list because of a crappy deal they made with an ex-employer, the ex-employer they quit their jobs at, I would suggest wishful thinking or they're smoking something. Most of these guys were on the fast track here anyway, first job out of school at Jazz for a few years and second job they're at AC and in their 20s about to go 220 Captain and they had to do an extra few months or year at Jazz in the way and think they're hard done by? I think most are smarter than that.

Move on. Go enjoy your life in your soon to be $250K or 300K job in your 20s and focus on what you can do at ACA ALPA to make it a $350K or 400K job sooner than later. Look forward, not back. Because if you get on a list that you came for your coworkers seniority here, where you expect to with for the next 35 years? Win or lose. You better hope for a FD with your ex Jazz buddies because otherwise it's going to be quiet flight decks and lonely layovers with everyone else.

[cdnavater]

Unfortunately we still have ex-Jazz Pilots that are convinced they will move 1000 numbers up the seniority list. Along with that belief, comes a massive chip on their shoulder.

Hopefully you get some sort of monetary compensation, but the seniority list is not changing.

You don't know that. No one does. AC pilots have standing for a reason, it means the outcome could impact them, and thus they have a voice at the table. If they were just discussing compensation, AC pilots would have no reason to be involved.

ACA ALPA have observer status, not a voice at the table. They are involved so they can get ahead of it if it were to come to a point that it affects AC members. The dispute is with Jazz though, not AC pilots, so it's not going to happen.

If there really are ex-Jazz pilots here that believe they will violate our collective agreement and seniority list because of a crappy deal they made with an ex-employer, the ex-employer they quit their jobs at, I would suggest wishful thinking or they're smoking something. Most of these guys were on the fast track here anyway, first job out of school at Jazz for a few years and second job they're at AC and in their 20s about to go 220 Captain and they had to do an extra few months or year at Jazz in the way and think they're hard done by? I think most are smarter than that.

Move on. Go enjoy your life in your soon to be $250K or 300K job in your 20s and focus on what you can do at ACA ALPA to make it a $350K or 400K job sooner than later. Look forward, not back. Because if you get on a list that you came for your coworkers seniority here, where you expect to with for the next 35 years? Win or lose. You better hope for a FD with your ex Jazz buddies because otherwise it's going to be quiet flight decks and lonely layovers with everyone else.

Not sure what AC ALPA is telling you guys but this is a quote from our update regarding the ULP,

“With ACA MEC’s intervenor status confirmed and processing of the complaint continuing, the ACA MEC will make written submissions on both the merits of the complaint and the preliminary matters raised by the employers. Once those submissions are complete, Jazz and Air Canada will each have an opportunity to reply. Once the employer parties reply, the JAZ MEC will also have an opportunity to reply. Assuming there are no further delays or requests for extension, this round of submissions and replies will be completed by October 1. The Board will provide its decision on the preliminary matters by October 31.”

[Man_in_the_sky]

Unfortunately we still have ex-Jazz Pilots that are convinced they will move 1000 numbers up the seniority list. Along with that belief, comes a massive chip on their shoulder.

Hopefully you get some sort of monetary compensation, but the seniority list is not changing.

You don't know that. No one does. AC pilots have standing for a reason, it means the outcome could impact them, and thus they have a voice at the table. If they were just discussing compensation, AC pilots would have no reason to be involved.

ACA ALPA have observer status, not a voice at the table. They are involved so they can get ahead of it if it were to come to a point that it affects AC members. The dispute is with Jazz though, not AC pilots, so it's not going to happen.

If there really are ex-Jazz pilots here that believe they will violate our collective agreement and seniority list because of a crappy deal they made with an ex-employer, the ex-employer they quit their jobs at, I would suggest wishful thinking or they're smoking something. Most of these guys were on the fast track here anyway, first job out of school at Jazz for a few years and second job they're at AC and in their 20s about to go 220 Captain and they had to do an extra few months or year at Jazz in the way and think they're hard done by? I think most are smarter than that.

Move on. Go enjoy your life in your soon to be $250K or 300K job in your 20s and focus on what you can do at ACA ALPA to make it a $350K or 400K job sooner than later. Look forward, not back. Because if you get on a list that you came for your coworkers seniority here, where you expect to with for the next 35 years? Win or lose. You better hope for a FD with your ex Jazz buddies because otherwise it's going to be quiet flight decks and lonely layovers with everyone else.

Not many of us expect seniority.

A one time payment, and if lucky, a change in our anniversary for pay step progression. I have no clue how they could make it happen if they switch all the numbers.

[truedude]

You don't know that. No one does. AC pilots have standing for a reason, it means the outcome could impact them, and thus they have a voice at the table. If they were just discussing compensation, AC pilots would have no reason to be involved.

ACA ALPA have observer status, not a voice at the table. They are involved so they can get ahead of it if it were to come to a point that it affects AC members. The dispute is with Jazz though, not AC pilots, so it's not going to happen.

If there really are ex-Jazz pilots here that believe they will violate our collective agreement and seniority list because of a crappy deal they made with an ex-employer, the ex-employer they quit their jobs at, I would suggest wishful thinking or they're smoking something. Most of these guys were on the fast track here anyway, first job out of school at Jazz for a few years and second job they're at AC and in their 20s about to go 220 Captain and they had to do an extra few months or year at Jazz in the way and think they're hard done by? I think most are smarter than that.

Move on. Go enjoy your life in your soon to be $250K or 300K job in your 20s and focus on what you can do at ACA ALPA to make it a $350K or 400K job sooner than later. Look forward, not back. Because if you get on a list that you came for your coworkers seniority here, where you expect to with for the next 35 years? Win or lose. You better hope for a FD with your ex Jazz buddies because otherwise it's going to be quiet flight decks and lonely layovers with everyone else.

Not many of us expect seniority.

A one time payment, and if lucky, a change in our anniversary for pay step progression. I have no clue how they could make it happen if they switch all the numbers.

A virtual seniority number tied to the class you should have been in, so that your pay is the same as the highest earner in your class. Doesn't impact what you or anyone else can bid for, but ensures you are compensated as if you were in that class. That is the solution that should be fought for.

[truedude]

Unfortunately we still have ex-Jazz Pilots that are convinced they will move 1000 numbers up the seniority list. Along with that belief, comes a massive chip on their shoulder.

Hopefully you get some sort of monetary compensation, but the seniority list is not changing.

You don't know that. No one does. AC pilots have standing for a reason, it means the outcome could impact them, and thus they have a voice at the table. If they were just discussing compensation, AC pilots would have no reason to be involved.

ACA ALPA have observer status, not a voice at the table. They are involved so they can get ahead of it if it were to come to a point that it affects AC members. The dispute is with Jazz though, not AC pilots, so it's not going to happen.

If there really are ex-Jazz pilots here that believe they will violate our collective agreement and seniority list because of a crappy deal they made with an ex-employer, the ex-employer they quit their jobs at, I would suggest wishful thinking or they're smoking something. Most of these guys were on the fast track here anyway, first job out of school at Jazz for a few years and second job they're at AC and in their 20s about to go 220 Captain and they had to do an extra few months or year at Jazz in the way and think they're hard done by? I think most are smarter than that.

Move on. Go enjoy your life in your soon to be $250K or 300K job in your 20s and focus on what you can do at ACA ALPA to make it a $350K or 400K job sooner than later. Look forward, not back. Because if you get on a list that you came for your coworkers seniority here, where you expect to with for the next 35 years? Win or lose. You better hope for a FD with your ex Jazz buddies because otherwise it's going to be quiet flight decks and lonely layovers with everyone else.

And this is just wrong. ACA has intervener status, something they asked for after being told by the CIRB to do so. And the CIRB has every right to correct seniority lists if they want. And if the CIRB does, then ACA should file a ULP agaisnt AC for having created this situation to start with. Jazz pilots are not to blame for the behaviour of a multi-billion dollar company that intentionally violated multiple signed agreements.

[Inverted2]

I just want my raise that was agreed to. Zero desire to go to AC but they screwed up bigtime and made Jazz an undesirable place to come to and all the blame goes on them. Screwing with seniority lists won’t go well but they made their mess….

[cdnavater]

I just want my raise that was agreed to. Zero desire to go to AC but they screwed up bigtime and made Jazz an undesirable place to come to and all the blame goes on them. Screwing with seniority lists won’t go well but they made their mess….

Dido, but also back pay!

[goingnowherefast]

ACA ALPA MEC has intervernor status because a lot of the affected JAZ ALPA pilots are now ACA ALPA pilots.

I'd expect APA ALPA MEC to support the ex-Jazz hires at AC in the same way they support non-Jazz hires at AC.

Reorganizing the seniority list is net neutral for the ACA pilots, and it could be considered a loss for the animosity it would cause. A payout and/or pay scale bump is a net gain for ACA pilots, and particularly for the affected pilots.