Why the ramp Etc. before flying?

classiv · Post by **classiv** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:35 am

marktheone,

so with your degree and business knowledge you can skip the ramp... in 99 percent of all cases, i would say this is not true.

with the exception of air canada, i cannot think of any operator that values education, except for the couple that want an aviation diploma.

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 7:22 am

Working the ramp is good for young pilots to be. It grounds them in reality and makes men of them. The best guys I work with have spent some time varsolling bellies and hauling planes through ice and snow. It builds character.

Using established pilots as slave labour for the ramp is wrong.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:16 am

This is a good thread and I believe all of us are basically trying to say the same thing.

It is demeaning and counterproductive for any employeer to use any new pilot as a cheap labour tool by promising them the opportunity to fly an airplane and never quite doing it.

I like most here have worked at many different jobs while employed as a pilot, however it was because it was beneficial for the company I was with and not because they offered the moon if I laboured away forever just to fly.

Just to reinforce something here, I am not against working at other jobs during your employment what I do not agree with is " usary " as in working young pilots in menial positions with no intention of giving them fair treatment..."Fair Treatment " get that?

It took me years to get my first job and I worked most of my license off by working for the Owners of the School ( Central Airways ) but every few days I was rewarded with a .1 or so of flying. And therein lies the difference.

Once I got my first job, crop dusting , the owner took me into the hangar and said during the winter you will help rebuild that Cub.

He introduced me to the most rewarding and satisfying sector of aviation, being an aircraft mechanic which for me is the best part of aviation.

So I have four things I like to do in aviation.

First...Working on aircraft building or fixing them.

Second....Teaching others how to fly to the best of their ability.

Third....Flying myself.

Fourth....Bullshitting about aviation..

and there you have the perfect pilot in my eyes.

Cat

Busted · Post by **Busted** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:02 am

The more school you got, the less time on the ramp. I am sorry but that is a load 99% of the time. You must have gotten lucky, just like others I went to school with.
I got out of University/College and then spent 2 years on the ramp in Yk 10 years ago.
Now, I have been informed the wait in YK is anywhere from 2-3 years approx, and it dosn't matter what kind of education you have when getting there. You will be added to the bottom of the rampies list.

It sure does suck to be used and abbused.
I read about limiting the number of licences each year. I would love to see the flight schools agree to that. lol

Good luck to all newbies.

just clearing the trees · Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:58 am

Pete wrote:One last thing: Like I said...not all kids today aspire for the airlines...maybe if operators took a chance on those types of kids early on in their career, they'd invest back into the company who helped them...Id think creating a happier group of people who just want to fly (their Caravans hehe j.k)...better for the customers, better than any degree can teach you how to be.

Pete, you're right on the money. And don't worry, there are those type of float operators out there. I don't think that spending time on the dock is necessarily a bad thing, as long as you're getting a paycheck and some time on the aircraft in return. In my first couple seasons I unfortunately got suckered by a couple operators that weren't so kind. It's not right, but I definitely appreciate the great job and great boss I have now, more because of it. But you learn alot working the dock, I don't regret any of it. In fact, those days are great memories for me. You learn alot about the industry, alot about how that type of operation works, and alot about yourself. Plus, you get to meet alot of people and make friends that will become invaluable to you in the future for many reasons, including finding jobs. Just keep focused on the positives and drink lots of beer and you'll be able to handle all the dock building, shit-house digging and 4AM mornings they can throw at you. Sounds like you're the type of guy the float industry could use more of, good luck to you. And maybe one day, when we both get where we're going, and you're bombing around in your Caravan you'll see me just clearing the trees in my turbine Beaver.

marktheone · Post by **marktheone** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:23 am

classiv wrote:marktheone,

so with your degree and business knowledge you can skip the ramp... in 99 percent of all cases, i would say this is not true.

with the exception of air canada, i cannot think of any operator that values education, except for the couple that want an aviation diploma.

OK I get 2 resumes on the same day. Would I pick a guy who managed say a starbucks or the guy slinging coffee grinds? For sure the manager, all things being equal hours wise. Why? Because through the school of life he has gained some stripes. I'm with Haza about using established pilots on the ramp though, that's wrong for sure. I don't think that is happening all that much now though. Things are moving and you won't be on the ramp long if you try hard. If your IFR expires rent a plane and renew it. The work is out there and the good news is the supply will be diminishing soon as noone is going into commercial aviation so I'm told.

classiv · Post by **classiv** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:09 pm

hazatude wrote:.... The best guys I work with have spent some time varsolling bellies and hauling planes through ice and snow. It builds character.

So are you saying that everyone you know in life who has never hauled planes through ice and snow in their lives do not have character? I guess all the pilots in Europe don't have character because they never had to work the ramp.

classiv · Post by **classiv** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:17 pm

Marktheone,

First, are you an instructor?

Second, low time pilots aren't hired off resumes in 99 percent of all cases.

Third, 99 percent of all small time operators in Canada would probably throw any resume that has "Star Bucks" on it in the "He's Gay and From a Big City and probably has no Character - minus 200 points for him" pile.

If I was an employer in a small outfit, I personally would take a guy with a practical skill in the trades before I'd take any diploma or Starbucks boys. At least he could probably do something useful when he's not flying.

marktheone · Post by **marktheone** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:55 pm

Nope not an instructor and never have been. True. That's not a good analogy that I gave. The point I was trying to make is that employers look for a past that has built character rather than someone who has just worked a dumb job and got a 200Hr CPL. So bring more than that to it and your odds of skipping the ramp/dock are much better. Again I say that it is turning around so soon this won't be an issue.

Besides Regency is always hiring!

LOL

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:07 pm

Thanks for the kind words JC the T's. When its my turn to work the dock etc. Im sure I will enjoy it for the reasons you have posted. Even now I enjoy meeting high time float pilots on the dock...even if for a second to listen to them share a tip or two. Some of the grunt jobs Ive worked to pay for my flight training (which CP, some of us do take pride in, our brand new CPL...sweating our nuts off working crappy summer/part-time jobs/hours to atleast start the path of where we want to go...in a day in age where training costs in some part of the country are really insane...but I guess that doesnt count) I will never forget...because of the people, laughs and being proud of what I did to get my training done...and Im sure those dock experiences etc. in an industry that I would like to work in will even more enjoyable, because it may lead to a flying job....and the beer too! Ill always stay positive...because of posters like you and Cat, vet float pilots offering tips, and that like you said, with a bit of hard work opportunity starts to become more apparent despite the corruption. Ill keep a look out for you when I make it into a float operation in your turbine beaver....the bottom of your floats better be green!! hehe

P.S: when you high time guys see younger inexperienced guys either renting or training....you wouldn't believe how much it means to some of us like me...No Im not saying Godly, but its nice and is a positive in itself to stick it out through the B.S in the industry and keep going. Anyways, its happy hour...have a good one guys

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:11 pm

oops, my P.S was reffering to older guys offering tips or just shooting the s.it for a second or 2. It doesnt instill motivation believe it or not.

just clearing the trees · Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:17 pm

Pete wrote:...because of posters like you and Cat, vet float pilots offering tips,

Well, I'd say I've got about another 10 000 hours to put in on floats before I even start to think about considering myself a vet. I hope I never stop learning new things, because IMHO, the best pilots learn something from every flight, and when you're on floats no two flights are ever the same. Too many changing variables.

PS--I'm not even in the same stratosphere as the Cat!

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 1:30 pm

My first job was as a dispatcher, for a year, but every freight trip that came up, or non-rev or whatever, one of the regular guys would take me out and I would get an hour or so. I racked up 50 hours floats on the coast, and I took it to Saskatchewan for the next summer and never looked back. That summer, my first with my 'own' plane, was the most fun I've ever had and would have gladly done it for nothing (but I did get paid, saved me that winter when I got laid off at freeze-up).

So an apprenticeship program is good, nothing wrong with that, but working the ramp with no training program as part of it is purely and simply slave labour. Like I said in another post, they can't get guys to work the ramp for minimum wage, too much turnover, so they use aspiring pilots and hold out the carrot. Pilots are a dime a dozen, but good ramp rats, like good dispatchers, are golden. Not flown in 3 months on the ramp? Tell 'em to pound sand.

Sad thing is, once you start to fly, you will be so happy that you will not notice how easy it all is, and you will probably forget your resentment for the company that exploited you for all those years.

Just don't get sucked in without a training program or a firm progression in the company.

Pete · Post by **Pete** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:27 pm

it DOES instill motivation...I cant type today...

Mig29 · Post by **Mig29** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 2:48 pm

Good topic my friend, but I am too tired to read all postreplys since I been over this once few months ago....with regards to ramp guys not being able to fly right away (due to 'insurance minimums' ) but could after year or two of doing unrelated flying 'duties'...How come???

Anyways, my philosophy is that we as people have come down few ladder steps in terms of our moral standing with respect to last 10-15 years. Not just with aviation, but in any respect....so stuff you see today has not come over night....yes, supply-demand thing is true....but I sure as hell would not clean toilets up in Nunavut for 2 yrs ...waiting for C185 job.

How low you go, really depends on how you value YOURSELF, and what are you willing to put up for this career...

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:03 pm

classiv wrote:
hazatude wrote:.... The best guys I work with have spent some time varsolling bellies and hauling planes through ice and snow. It builds character.
So are you saying that everyone you know in life who has never hauled planes through ice and snow in their lives do not have character? I guess all the pilots in Europe don't have character because they never had to work the ramp.

Yes.

just clearing the trees · Sun Dec 18, 2005 3:46 pm

tellyourkidstogetarealjob · Mon Dec 19, 2005 2:49 am

Check Pilot wrote:
spending a night from 02:00 to 03:00 the next day fixing ...on December 24th (Christmas Eve) about 300 miles from home when my new wife was expecting me home in Camrose

It took me 24 hours to stop laughing at this one. Congratulations, you became an AME !

I was willing...to heave 13,000 bales on the farm every summer again.

Yeah, my brothers' ex-girlfriend used to do that too. Pretty standard for Saskatchewan and Alberta farm girls.

Yeah, I did it the hard way and I don’t want any sympathy either

Because you don't deserve it. Sounds to me like your difficulties have been fairly average.

Paying dues is one thing; being treated like a toilet so buddy can undercut every other operator in the area to create a mini-empire, then brag at businessman's luncheons about his business acumen is totally different.

Unfortunate that you never learned to differentiate.

tumbleweed · Post by **tumbleweed** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 7:19 am

I hear what the new guys are saying, we want to fly right away. I learned a lot from a summer on the dock. It is an invaluable tool to get to know your future pilot.

Put yourself in a small operators position. There is a pile of resumes mostly kids of 19 to 21 years old the only differences is some have 200 some have 210.1 hours. So you do your best and hire the one you think might work. You give him some responsibilities and see how he does. Then you give him some more and observe. My first employer told me after I had been assigned an airplane that he watched how I had done the jobs I hated because there would be days I hated flying and wanted to be assured I would be doing a good job as I would be away from base most of the summer.

Now for the companies that use the ramp as a start is not the same because those companies have captains in the airplane therefore there is no reason to dangle the carrot. You will get a feel for the guy in the airplane.

Good luck guys. There is companies that hire low timers directly into the right seat. they may not be in the places you want to live but they are there.

pushyboss · Post by **pushyboss** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:02 am

I started flying 25 years ago. I worked the dock. I learned a lot about airplanes, safety, and float flying by working on the dock. The boss was able to see my work ethic and one day let me do an easy trip in the 180. That led to more and more flying until one day working the dock was but a memory. I am glad for the time I spent working the dock as it was a building block in my flying foundation.

bizjet_mania · Post by **bizjet_mania** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:12 am

Working on a ramp is great for guys that want to someday fly, or guys finishing up highschool, getting ready for flight college. Should everyone work dispatch or do some work in maintenance or on the ramp? Absolutely!!! Its a great way to learn alittle about the buisness and gives you a better appreciation for everyone elses job since you've done it for a bit. But I dont agree with completing your training with a huge debt only to not be able to do what you've studied and trained to do. Working the ramp doesnt make you a better pilot only a better person.

Ive done the shit jobs...literally, cleaning lavs, lying ontop of an MU2 scrubbing sealant from the wings coming out 6 hours later smelling like Jet-A, buffing the hangar floors, washing/waxing/grooming planes, scrubbing the crap from under the belly with hydrauic fluid getting dirt flying into your eyes. I did it and looking back I dont regret it! I had a great time. But I was in highschool and only had a private so I thought nothing of it, it was good experience. And thats why I did it, and I didnt get paid at all! But thats not the kind of experience Id go for when I am looking to get a job doing what I paid so much money and time training to do.

Ramp/Dock for lowtimers... fine whatever... spending 2 years doing it while your IFR lapses and you begin forgetting stuff, is complete BS!

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:26 am

What's good (and most efficient) for an individual's career development, and what the company needs to get done, rarely precisely overlap.

For example, I think it really rounds out a pilot's experience to get his hands dirty in the hangar, and get to know a bit better, the airplane he flies. Some will argue that such in-depth knowledge of aircraft systems is old-fashioned, and most of the time, they're right - until a slightly unusual emergency comes along.

However, having the pilots always clean the toilets probably doesn't help their knowledge too much after the first couple times, even though I can understand how it might save the company money.

Anyone bright enough to operate an aircraft ought to be able to judge when he's being taken advantage of by an operator. Remember, if you don't like the job, move on. If more pilots did that, we wouldn't have this problem.

Hotel Tango · Post by **Hotel Tango** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 11:51 am

How about hiring the person as a part time pilot or F.O. and flying him a bit and having him help out on the ground as well? Help "build his character" while also training him to be a pilot. Then you get to see both sides!

Where I'm working now, the ground guys get PCCed and do the occasional flight. Keeps them happy and helps them learn about flying not hangar cleaning.

Just a thought.

butwhy · Post by **butwhy** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:12 pm

marktheone wrote: It's really not that bad.

O yaaa.. that's the attitude. Why pay some one 10 to 12 bucks an hour to clean the shit.. They'll hire a pilot with a diploma or degree to clean the shit and to kiss the owner and chief pilot's ass. and yet not to pay the kid and if he/she opens his/her mouth they'll fire the kid and then black list him/her.
This is a fucked up industry..but as long as new pilots put up with it , this will even go worse than what it it now.

marktheone · Post by **marktheone** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:16 pm

Butwhy,

If you did some research into this industry before you started you would have found that winding up on the ramp for a bit was pretty much the standard. I'm not for companies exploiting pilots at all but a couple of months is par for the course.