Run ups at CYQB

[digits_]

There’s a hotspot on B off R29, but hot spots are just areas where a risk of collision exists & demand heightened awareness & mitigation strategies. They don’t explicitly prohibit run-ups, thought it wouldn’t be a good idea if the airport was busy. Either way, sounds like you were on C.

Just looked it up and yes I was holding at C.

Sounds like ATC was stretching their assertiveness legs, might be a good time to stretch yours..

Now that I know I didn't miss anything, absolutely! I feel like just flying there and taxi to do a run up at the holding point

For reference, the RJ and other jet aircraft need to do a post de-icing run up, we ask ground every time where they would like us to do that.
If I were flying at a controlled airport in a piston, 100% I would ask where they want me to do that, just because it doesn’t specify something doesn’t mean you have carte blanche to do whatever you want.
If I were flying at an uncontrolled airport, I would advertise that I was about to run up, you may see that no one is around when you start the run up but you will be somewhat distracted and ground needs to know to not taxi anyone behind you.
Further to the point, you could have been at an area that has noise restrictions and lastly, it says in the CFS during RVOP engine run ups and towing will not be “authorized”, let’s focus in on that word for a second, auhthorized; having official permission or approval.
This seems to me a no brainer, you need permission to do a run up, not sure why you thought you didn’t!

Why would I have to look at RVOP regulations during CAVOK weather? There was no mention of RVOP ops on the ATIS either.

I have never have to ask permission to do a run up anywhere. Sometimes there are signs that says 'run up here' or 'no run ups beyond this point' or similar things. But none of those were present in CYQB. Hence my confusion.

[Eric Janson]

As stated previously - just advise ATC of your intentions on first contact.

This is especially important at unfamiliar airports. There may be 'local' procedures that you know nothing about.

Effective Communication can prevent a lot of issues.

[cdnavater]

Just looked it up and yes I was holding at C.

Now that I know I didn't miss anything, absolutely! I feel like just flying there and taxi to do a run up at the holding point

For reference, the RJ and other jet aircraft need to do a post de-icing run up, we ask ground every time where they would like us to do that.
If I were flying at a controlled airport in a piston, 100% I would ask where they want me to do that, just because it doesn’t specify something doesn’t mean you have carte blanche to do whatever you want.
If I were flying at an uncontrolled airport, I would advertise that I was about to run up, you may see that no one is around when you start the run up but you will be somewhat distracted and ground needs to know to not taxi anyone behind you.
Further to the point, you could have been at an area that has noise restrictions and lastly, it says in the CFS during RVOP engine run ups and towing will not be “authorized”, let’s focus in on that word for a second, auhthorized; having official permission or approval.
This seems to me a no brainer, you need permission to do a run up, not sure why you thought you didn’t!

Why would I have to look at RVOP regulations during CAVOK weather? There was no mention of RVOP ops on the ATIS either.

I have never have to ask permission to do a run up anywhere. Sometimes there are signs that says 'run up here' or 'no run ups beyond this point' or similar things. But none of those were present in CYQB. Hence my confusion.

The fact you have never “had to ask permission” says something about you, you are presuming permission and this seems like the first time a controller challenged you. Don’t focus on RVOP, focus on the important word I pointed out, authorized, this implies that in a controlled environment you need permission or perhaps, authorization. I have never ever not asked permission in a controlled environment, ever!

[digits_]

For reference, the RJ and other jet aircraft need to do a post de-icing run up, we ask ground every time where they would like us to do that.
If I were flying at a controlled airport in a piston, 100% I would ask where they want me to do that, just because it doesn’t specify something doesn’t mean you have carte blanche to do whatever you want.
If I were flying at an uncontrolled airport, I would advertise that I was about to run up, you may see that no one is around when you start the run up but you will be somewhat distracted and ground needs to know to not taxi anyone behind you.
Further to the point, you could have been at an area that has noise restrictions and lastly, it says in the CFS during RVOP engine run ups and towing will not be “authorized”, let’s focus in on that word for a second, auhthorized; having official permission or approval.
This seems to me a no brainer, you need permission to do a run up, not sure why you thought you didn’t!

Why would I have to look at RVOP regulations during CAVOK weather? There was no mention of RVOP ops on the ATIS either.

I have never have to ask permission to do a run up anywhere. Sometimes there are signs that says 'run up here' or 'no run ups beyond this point' or similar things. But none of those were present in CYQB. Hence my confusion.

The fact you have never “had to ask permission” says something about you, you are presuming permission and this seems like the first time a controller challenged you. Don’t focus on RVOP, focus on the important word I pointed out, authorized, this implies that in a controlled environment you need permission or perhaps, authorization. I have never ever not asked permission in a controlled environment, ever!

Fair enough. Do you have a reference that says run ups need permission? I couldn't find anything. I agree the RVOP wording in CYQB implies it, but if it's a widespread policy in Canada, surely it should be documented somewhere?

Usually during taxi clearance you get something like "contact tower when ready". I have always assumed that means I can take some time to configure the plane and perform a run up if required. I have had it where tower says to move to the left/right if I need a runup, in advance. I have never had a tower be surprised that I perform a runup at the holding or the designated run up area if it exists.

[BGH]

I have always asked where I could do my run up when at unfamiliar airports,some have been on the taxiway just prior to taking the active while others have either been at the edge of the fbo apron I’m on or in an area designated by the tower.
Never bothered me one bit to ask at callup & pretty much everyone answered without sarcasm.

Daryl

[‘Bob’]

I just don’t care.

If it’s not explicitly stated in the CFS or instructed to me, I’ll do it wherever whenever within the bounds of basic airmanship.

What are you going to do? CADORS me?

If I’m questioned about it I’ll state that if you want it done a specific way or in a specific place, PUBLISH IT!

As I get older I find I have less and less tolerance for norms, tribal knowledge, “everybody does it this way/we’ve always done it that way”, and snarky controllers.

[TeePeeCreeper]

Digits,

YQB is a strange strange place. I flew out of there for a couple of years. Not that long ago really.

What really pissed me off was canceling the IFR and still being expected to fly the STAR even though they weren’t sequencing any other traffic! No rhyme or reason what so ever.

A new friend of mine that I met golfing turned out to be a recently retired as a tower supervisor. While playing a round of virtual golf at his place one winter I asked him… why the STAR all the f’ing time.

“They are being lazy”.

I suspect that this kind of attitude may have contributed your ops. Sounds like you were dealing with the shortest controller on the YQB roaster.

Take care,

TPC

Thank you for this background info! Do you know how a run up would increase a controller's workload or why it would piss them off?

Sorry for the tardy reply digits;

As far as YQB goes, I haven’t a clue as to how ground/tower can ever be overloaded. It’s mind boggling really. The only far stretched answer would be because they weren’t expecting you to stop to do a run up and that was a departure from their norm?

As Bob stated above, I would think a quick run-up while keeping airmanship in mind should suffice any day of the week.

Take Care,

TPC

[Daigo]

Holy crap this thread was painful to read. Have you people never flown a piston before??? Whats with these dumbass questions. Looking at you Cdnavater, i hope for your sake that you're just a ragebaiting troll

OP, obviously you've done nothing wrong and you don't need explicit permission to perform a routine piston procedure. Just like you dont need explicit "authorization" to perform a flap 1 takeoff on your cessna. Its really impossible to answer why the controller would feel that way. Id be willing to bet he didn't mean to press you but it was just poorly communicated

Also, WeRe You fLyiNg that CeSsNa duRinG RVOPS??

[digits_]

Thank you all for the different points of view!

[up on one]

Unfortunately performing engine run-ups isn’t specific to piston aircraft. Many jets, under certain weather conditions, are required to perform engine run-ups prior to take off as well.

I have minimal understanding of what a controller has to deal with in their profession. That being said I do know for certain they aren’t required to recall which aircraft (or under which conditions) are required to perform engine run-ups.

I wish I had a reference that I could attach but aren’t we required to inform ground of our intentions along with our request at a controlled airport?

If I were to perform a run-up without informing the controller of intentions whenever I wanted even if at the specified run-up points I know that I would get an earful though i assured the area behind me was clear. I understand that you did your due diligence and ensured your prop wash did not impact other professionals. That being said, as professional pilots, airmanship starts with proper communication and I feel that informing the appropriate controller of your intentions is required

[CaptDukeNukem]

https://youtu.be/HkcFtnBslys?si=gER9EYDayJKy_E4L

Kennedy Steve says it like it is. 1:00 in the video,

[thenoflyzone]

Digits,

YQB is a strange strange place. I flew out of there for a couple of years. Not that long ago really.

What really pissed me off was canceling the IFR and still being expected to fly the STAR even though they weren’t sequencing any other traffic! No rhyme or reason what so ever.

A new friend of mine that I met golfing turned out to be a recently retired as a tower supervisor. While playing a round of virtual golf at his place one winter I asked him… why the STAR all the f’ing time.

“They are being lazy”.

I suspect that this kind of attitude may have contributed your ops. Sounds like you were dealing with the shortest controller on the YQB roaster.

Take care,

TPC

Haven't worked YQB TCU in ~7 years, but back then - and fairly certain this procedure still applies - TWR/TCU procedures dictated that twin VFRs and any VFR at 160KIAS+ be sequenced onto final, and intercept outside the control zone (i.e at least 7nm final). This is to protect TWR and its circuit.

YQB can get very busy on TWR frequency, with IFR, VFR circuits and choppers in training.

On occasion, TWR even used to ask us to turn a guy 10 nm final. I hated when they did that, but I complied, because I saw how busy they were.

Yes, the controller could have been lazy, but if TWR was busy (or even if he wasn't), the procedure we have with TWR is one reason why he might have kept you on the STAR. Did he break you off the STAR a bit later and vectored you for a 7nm final? If there was no traffic, that's what I would have done.

Also, just because you don't hear a lot of transmissions on the frequency doesn't mean no one is there. Especially now, with the advent of RNAV or RNP AR approaches, we can clear aircraft for the approach pretty much from initial contact, while the plane is still in the downwind, especially during times with light traffic, and then just switch him to TWR 5-10 minutes later, once he turns onto final. If you checked in on the frequency right after that COM, you won't be hearing much, but doesn't mean another arrival isn't ahead of you.

Just out of curiosity, when did this happen? What aircraft were you flying? What time?

Another thing to consider is that YQB TCU also does YOW TCU. The unit is very short staffed. Could very well be 1 controller was working both TCUs. Been there, done that. So if that was the case, he might have left you on the STAR on purpose to concentrate on what is happening at YOW.

It's easy to sit in the cockpit and judge based on what you perceive is happening without knowing the inside baseball.