True Story

[mantogasrsrwy]

So we are climbing out through 200 with the FO flying. I pull out the journey log and start on it when he decides he needs to go into a 2000 fpm vertical speed climb to top a build up. This certainly gets my attention so I put the journey log away to watch a little closer. Eventually we get going as slow as we are going to get without me being unhappy. I put my foot down and he takes it out of vertical speed. Of course by this time we are in mach. I try not to drive it for them. But I make the suggestion an old wise captain once made to me after an expedited climb and I suggest that this is a perfect time to change it back to speed. (I know I know, there are other ways to skin the cat.) We will continue to climb and the mach will creep back up. After about 10 seconds he can stand it no longer. He closes the window. We mush to 0fpm. I bang my head against the window frame a couple times and go back to my journey log.

[MACH83]

From the beginning of time, Captains have complained about FOs, and FOs have complained about Captains.

[mantogasrsrwy]

I'm generally laid back. But a 2000 fpm VS climb to the yellow band will elicit a comment from pretty much any captain.

[mantogasrsrwy]

...

[BTD]

I still don’t get doing the journey log in the climb. If it is a long leg, do it in cruise, if it is short do it at the gate at the end of the flight.

As to the story; yeah, what is the purpose of VS in that situation anyway. IAS is paramount. Do it in FLCH(Vnav speed window open) or Open Climb or whatever is on the aircraft type and bug the speed you want. Either Mach or IAS. If you are trying to climb over set best rate or even best angle if necessary.

[nohojob]

Best Time to put the off time in the logbook is right after the positive rate call. This way you are sure to have the accurate time since sometimes the FMC is not accurate.

[AV80R]

I like to do it as we are approaching towering cumulus because it's a fun challenge to try to print straight in turbulence.

[yycflyguy]

Crazy idea, but how about avoiding it laterally instead of trying to top a CB where the turbulence above the top can extend another couple of thousand feet. If there's that much time to mess with the climb, someone should have keyed the mic and requested a deviation.

[Tbayer2021]

What a bunch of amateurs. If you can't fill out the journey log while on a hand flown CATIII just turn in your license. Climb out and cruise are strictly for complaining about the contract, showing off the latest boat, car, cottage and maybe your new gf thats 30 years younger.

[‘Bob’]

I still don’t get doing the journey log in the climb. If it is a long leg, do it in cruise, if it is short do it at the gate at the end of the flight.

As to the story; yeah, what is the purpose of VS in that situation anyway. IAS is paramount. Do it in FLCH(Vnav speed window open) or Open Climb or whatever is on the aircraft type and bug the speed you want. Either Mach or IAS. If you are trying to climb over set best rate or even best angle if necessary.

Because FLCH is slow AF to start doing anything. Pro tip.. if ATC asks you to climb and to expedite it for traffic .. don’t use FLCH.

VS is fine to initiate. But don’t keep it there and switch to IAS/Mach as appropriate at the proper attitude (remember what that is?) for a sustainable climb. Switching over right at the anticipated or required IAS/Mach will result in a roller coaster because the attitude will probably be too high.

[BTD]

I still don’t get doing the journey log in the climb. If it is a long leg, do it in cruise, if it is short do it at the gate at the end of the flight.

As to the story; yeah, what is the purpose of VS in that situation anyway. IAS is paramount. Do it in FLCH(Vnav speed window open) or Open Climb or whatever is on the aircraft type and bug the speed you want. Either Mach or IAS. If you are trying to climb over set best rate or even best angle if necessary.

Because FLCH is slow AF to start doing anything. Pro tip.. if ATC asks you to climb and to expedite it for traffic .. don’t use FLCH.

VS is fine to initiate. But don’t keep it there and switch to IAS/Mach as appropriate at the proper attitude (remember what that is?) for a sustainable climb. Switching over right at the anticipated or required IAS/Mach will result in a roller coaster because the attitude will probably be too high.

Pro tip, we aren’t talking about ATC requesting expedited climb.
Pro tip, different aircraft types will initiate climbs in flight level change differently. (Boeing are pretty slow, Embraer and the 220 are pretty snappy iirc.)
Pro tip, in the example, they are already climbing, and not initiating from level flight. Even Boeing is quick enough.
Pro tip, switching in and out of Vnav is making a lot of work which is why I said (Vnav speed with window open for Boeing) and would be a point of discussion I would have as a training and check pilot. Not wrong just a discussion.

[co-joe]

A climb is a higher area of vulnerability than cruise, especially with build ups and an inexperienced FO. Maybe time to re-think when you chose to do paperwork or otherwise go heads down?

[Eric Janson]

I'm generally laid back. But a 2000 fpm VS climb to the yellow band will elicit a comment from pretty much any captain.

Nothing in the SOP about this?

If nothing in the SOP- then it should be covered in Line Training.

[yycflyguy]

I'm generally laid back. But a 2000 fpm VS climb to the yellow band will elicit a comment from pretty much any captain.

Nothing in the SOP about this?

If nothing in the SOP- then it should be covered in Line Training.

SOPs can't cover every scenario. I agree that I would be saying something as well watching a colleague pull all the energy out of the aircraft in a V/S climb. If you make the altitude without carrying any energy it also takes forever for the plane to accelerate to your cruise speed. It's a mismanagement of the situation.

[BrianLarson]

When you're in a thrust-limited climb, managing your vertical speed is a smart way to control your speed, especially as you approach or exceed Mach. For jets, just set your climb thrust, maintain your speed or Mach (whether it's managed or selected), and let the rate of climb do its thing. If you need to get above the weather, consider asking for a speed boost, a quick deviation, or a step climb—just don’t get too fixated on the vertical speed indicator. A clear communication helps: “Speed mode for the climb.” If you do use vertical speed, make sure to set a conservative cap with a solid speed floor (like “no lower than .74/280”). This way, you can keep climbing without stalling out at 0 feet per minute.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I try and get the logbook done well below 10,000’ that way I can monitor things like this much better.

[lostaviator]

I usually do the logbook prior to departure. It makes it much easier for me to watch over FO's and tell them things like "the company doesn't like it when..." and "we aren't supposed to use that mode".

With acars uplinking times right to the maintenance control software, the paper version is just there to make me feel important. However, I have learned to leave the destination field blank on the last leg of the last day until I actually set the brake at home. Bad luck.

Joking aside. We all had to learn at some point. May I suggest banging your head and going back to paperwork, then running to your hotel and logging onto avcan to vent isn't the best way to mentor a colleague.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I usually do the logbook prior to departure. It makes it much easier for me to watch over FO's and tell them things like "the company doesn't like it when..." and "we aren't supposed to use that mode".

With acars uplinking times right to the maintenance control software, the paper version is just there to make me feel important. However, I have learned to leave the destination field blank on the last leg of the last day until I actually set the brake at home. Bad luck.

Joking aside. We all had to learn at some point. May I suggest banging your head and going back to paperwork, then running to your hotel and logging onto avcan to vent isn't the best way to mentor a colleague.

You can't mentor these guys (and gals) anymore. They all have it figured out already, and need no help or advice from anyone.