Pilot with Cruise-Only Hours - Where to Start?

[yowflyer23]

I’m sure there is an exception somewhere in the past, but to be hired by AC you require an ATPL. So nobody is applying for a licence with RP hours, they already have it. Once you have all your licences the only requirement is to keep a personal log. So you can put it in whatever column you like.

Fair. What about those folks who were Second Officers on Cargojet's 727s before they retired those?

Here is a thread from 2007. Some of the factors have changed. There is no legal requirement to have an ATPL to be FO on a transport category aircraft, only an IATRA. So at the time, the FE/SO could sit sideways until their seniority allowed them to hold right seat. Then go there and log their time at 50% (the rules on that have changed). Then apply for the ATPL.

http://avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=265519

Alright interesting, thanks for the link. Now I'm extra puzzled as to how OP got a TC ATPL with only cruise relief time if he was a cadet.

[Me262]

Fair. What about those folks who were Second Officers on Cargojet's 727s before they retired those?

Here is a thread from 2007. Some of the factors have changed. There is no legal requirement to have an ATPL to be FO on a transport category aircraft, only an IATRA. So at the time, the FE/SO could sit sideways until their seniority allowed them to hold right seat. Then go there and log their time at 50% (the rules on that have changed). Then apply for the ATPL.

http://avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=265519

Alright interesting, thanks for the link. Now I'm extra puzzled as to how OP got a TC ATPL with only cruise relief time if he was a cadet.

He got all his PIC before his cadet program and got the ATPL with the relief hours as co-pilot most likely.

[yowflyer23]

Here is a thread from 2007. Some of the factors have changed. There is no legal requirement to have an ATPL to be FO on a transport category aircraft, only an IATRA. So at the time, the FE/SO could sit sideways until their seniority allowed them to hold right seat. Then go there and log their time at 50% (the rules on that have changed). Then apply for the ATPL.

http://avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=265519

Alright interesting, thanks for the link. Now I'm extra puzzled as to how OP got a TC ATPL with only cruise relief time if he was a cadet.

He got all his PIC before his cadet program and got the ATPL with the relief hours as co-pilot most likely.

You didn't read my first post.. TC told me that SO hours cannot be counted as co-pilot time/towards an ATPL. So, unless this guy flew 1500 hours out of pocket before signing up to the cadet program, the lady I interacted with at TC is mistaken (which is what I'm trying to figure out) or OP pulled some wizardry to get an ATPL with the experience that he has.

[twa22]

Alright interesting, thanks for the link. Now I'm extra puzzled as to how OP got a TC ATPL with only cruise relief time if he was a cadet.

He got all his PIC before his cadet program and got the ATPL with the relief hours as co-pilot most likely.

You didn't read my first post.. TC told me that SO hours cannot be counted as co-pilot time/towards an ATPL. So, unless this guy flew 1500 hours out of pocket before signing up to the cadet program, the lady I interacted with at TC is mistaken (which is what I'm trying to figure out) or OP pulled some wizardry to get an ATPL with the experience that he has.

I asked the initial question of how can you get an ATPL with only cruise hours but that was in relation to the PIC time, as majority of the world allows you to get most of the 250 PIC requirement via PICUS. EASA you only need 70 hours of actual PIC, and the rest can all be done PICUS... Canada won't recognize that... so if you have an EASA ATPL, or any other ATPL issued under these circumstances, Canada won't recognize your ATPL unless you get 250 of ACTUAL PIC, or 150 ACTUAL PIC, and the rest PICUS. It's understood that OP had 250 hours of ACTUAL PIC, or 150 PIC and 100 PICUS, to satisfy the TC requirements

Now what your saying is, based on what TC told you, how did OP get an ATPL, assuming that even if he/she has the 250 PIC satisfied, the 1500 hours of total time isn't technically eligible because it's all cruise relief time, which is the problem you may potentially have.

Time in seat is time in seat. You are a qualified crew member. It should be no different then an AC RP... they're type rating is a CRP type rating, which only allows a crew member to sit in the seat above X altitude (someone can correct me if i'm wrong, but that's what i've read here a while back), but while they are occupying that seat, they are at the controls, so there's no reason they can't log that... otherwise what's the point of being an RP for years on end, if you can never log that time... it should be no different then the airline you are at...

[BTD]

Maybe it should be maybe not. However, the Canadian ATPL requirements are for co-pilot time or pic time. An RP is not defined at AC as a First Officer or co-pilot. How TC interprets that could be up to the individual you get at TC.

You can still log the time as an RP, the question is can you credit it towards an ATPL. A straight reading of the standards and regulations would suggest it cannot.

As to why someone would want to be an RP, is for lifestyle. As I mentioned above, to be hired by AC you need an ATPL, so nobody needs or cares about those hours anyway.

[twa22]

Maybe it should be maybe not. However, the Canadian ATPL requirements are for co-pilot time or pic time. An RP is not defined at AC as a First Officer or co-pilot. How TC interprets that could be up to the individual you get at TC.

You can still log the time as an RP, the question is can you credit it towards an ATPL. A straight reading of the standards and regulations would suggest it cannot.

As to why someone would want to be an RP, is for lifestyle. As I mentioned above, to be hired by AC you need an ATPL, so nobody needs or cares about those hours anyway.

That's fair, but it goes to show how the TC rules make zero sense. AC and CX are the only two legacy airlines I can think of that have this RP/SO position, everywhere else in the world they send 2 Captains/2 FOs or 1 Captain/3 FOs on ULRs... so what difference does it make if your status is deemed FO or SO/RP... should all FOs, who operate as the second relief crew, and don't take off or land, not have the hours count while sitting in the seat? An RP and FO who is flying as relief is literally the same thing, we are talking about semantics now, because a pilot label "FO or co-pilot" can count their hours towards total time, while the "SO/RP" can't

I still don't understand how every country can have such drastically different rules. We are all qualified to fly an airplane, there really should be a set international standard amongst all developed countries, but that's wishful thinking

[BTD]

Maybe it should be maybe not. However, the Canadian ATPL requirements are for co-pilot time or pic time. An RP is not defined at AC as a First Officer or co-pilot. How TC interprets that could be up to the individual you get at TC.

You can still log the time as an RP, the question is can you credit it towards an ATPL. A straight reading of the standards and regulations would suggest it cannot.

As to why someone would want to be an RP, is for lifestyle. As I mentioned above, to be hired by AC you need an ATPL, so nobody needs or cares about those hours anyway.

That's fair, but it goes to show how the TC rules make zero sense. AC and CX are the only two legacy airlines I can think of that have this RP/SO position, everywhere else in the world they send 2 Captains/2 FOs or 1 Captain/3 FOs on ULRs... so what difference does it make if your status is deemed FO or SO/RP... should all FOs, who operate as the second relief crew, and don't take off or land, not have the hours count while sitting in the seat? An RP and FO who is flying as relief is literally the same thing, we are talking about semantics now, because a pilot label "FO or co-pilot" can count their hours towards total time, while the "SO/RP" can't

I still don't understand how every country can have such drastically different rules. We are all qualified to fly an airplane, there really should be a set international standard amongst all developed countries, but that's wishful thinking

While I pretty much agree, I can say that at AC, as an RP you no longer get an FO MPV/LOE (PPC) and as such aren’t qualified to act as co-pilot. I would even argue that as an Augment FO and qualified as such, you are not co-pilot (second in command) and cannot log those hours towards the ATPL. Although log them, just no credit for ATPL. I’d suggest (opinion only) as written you need to be in the left or right seat for take off and landing to credit it towards ATPL. I am not saying that is right or wrong only that it is what it is.

And while I think it is stupid a flight instructor can get an ATPL with only that time, I would think it equally silly a 250 CPL who then adds RP time could get an ATPL.

Said as a former class 3/4 instructor.

[Me262]

Alright interesting, thanks for the link. Now I'm extra puzzled as to how OP got a TC ATPL with only cruise relief time if he was a cadet.

He got all his PIC before his cadet program and got the ATPL with the relief hours as co-pilot most likely.

You didn't read my first post.. TC told me that SO hours cannot be counted as co-pilot time/towards an ATPL. So, unless this guy flew 1500 hours out of pocket before signing up to the cadet program, the lady I interacted with at TC is mistaken (which is what I'm trying to figure out) or OP pulled some wizardry to get an ATPL with the experience that he has.

And the wizardry was probably whoever TC employee dealt with his ATPL application approved his ATPL. Had he gotten someone else, maybe he would've been denied. So dice throw who handled his application and how that individual interpreted their own rules. I too phoned TC to ask questions and got different answers depending who I got on the phone.

I still don't understand how every country can have such drastically different rules. We are all qualified to fly an airplane, there really should be a set international standard amongst all developed countries, but that's wishful thinking

Last amendments were done in 2004, so yes, wishful thinking TC would finally overhaul their licensing process to be adapted to current market and ICAO standards (EASA, Asia). Instead we got rest rules updates that all they do is mess up your ability to hold a decent schedule and ignore the real dangers such as CDOs

[twa22]

Maybe it should be maybe not. However, the Canadian ATPL requirements are for co-pilot time or pic time. An RP is not defined at AC as a First Officer or co-pilot. How TC interprets that could be up to the individual you get at TC.

You can still log the time as an RP, the question is can you credit it towards an ATPL. A straight reading of the standards and regulations would suggest it cannot.

As to why someone would want to be an RP, is for lifestyle. As I mentioned above, to be hired by AC you need an ATPL, so nobody needs or cares about those hours anyway.

That's fair, but it goes to show how the TC rules make zero sense. AC and CX are the only two legacy airlines I can think of that have this RP/SO position, everywhere else in the world they send 2 Captains/2 FOs or 1 Captain/3 FOs on ULRs... so what difference does it make if your status is deemed FO or SO/RP... should all FOs, who operate as the second relief crew, and don't take off or land, not have the hours count while sitting in the seat? An RP and FO who is flying as relief is literally the same thing, we are talking about semantics now, because a pilot label "FO or co-pilot" can count their hours towards total time, while the "SO/RP" can't

I still don't understand how every country can have such drastically different rules. We are all qualified to fly an airplane, there really should be a set international standard amongst all developed countries, but that's wishful thinking

While I pretty much agree, I can say that at AC, as an RP you no longer get an FO MPV/LOE (PPC) and as such aren’t qualified to act as co-pilot. I would even argue that as an Augment FO and qualified as such, you are not co-pilot (second in command) and cannot log those hours towards the ATPL. Although log them, just no credit for ATPL. I’d suggest (opinion only) as written you need to be in the left or right seat for take off and landing to credit it towards ATPL. I am not saying that is right or wrong only that it is what it is.

And while I think it is stupid a flight instructor can get an ATPL with only that time, I would think it equally silly a 250 CPL who then adds RP time could get an ATPL.

Said as a former class 3/4 instructor.

Well said, unfortunately it is what it is and it will be that way until someone decides to have a hard look and make some proper reforms on various definitions, or get in line to standardize with the rest of the world, but i'm not holding my breath on either of those happening anytime soon

[twa22]

He got all his PIC before his cadet program and got the ATPL with the relief hours as co-pilot most likely.

You didn't read my first post.. TC told me that SO hours cannot be counted as co-pilot time/towards an ATPL. So, unless this guy flew 1500 hours out of pocket before signing up to the cadet program, the lady I interacted with at TC is mistaken (which is what I'm trying to figure out) or OP pulled some wizardry to get an ATPL with the experience that he has.

And the wizardry was probably whoever TC employee dealt with his ATPL application approved his ATPL. Had he gotten someone else, maybe he would've been denied. So dice throw who handled his application and how that individual interpreted their own rules. I too phoned TC to ask questions and got different answers depending who I got on the phone.

I still don't understand how every country can have such drastically different rules. We are all qualified to fly an airplane, there really should be a set international standard amongst all developed countries, but that's wishful thinking

Last amendments were done in 2004, so yes, wishful thinking TC would finally overhaul their licensing process to be adapted to current market and ICAO standards (EASA, Asia). Instead we got rest rules updates that all they do is mess up your ability to hold a decent schedule and ignore the real dangers such as CDOs

This is very true

[yowflyer23]

While I pretty much agree, I can say that at AC, as an RP you no longer get an FO MPV/LOE (PPC) and as such aren’t qualified to act as co-pilot.

Not arguing what you had to say, because I somewhat agree with your logic, but as an SO/RP at my company, we do a full P1 type rating course. i.e. the initial ppc sim footprint is identical to FO's. The only difference is that FO's will do base training (essentially fly to some quieter airport in the real plane and do 3 touch and go's) before starting line indoc and obviously they'll be sitting in the operating seat for t/o and landing for every flight thereafter. I believe their line indoc is far longer as well. SO's are also back in the sim every 3 months instead of 6. It's designed so that it's not a big adjustment when upgrading to FO. It's too bad AC has gone that far with cutting costs for RP training. Clearly the position is not treated the same everywhere. Mind you, you already have to have experience to fly at AC. Where I'm at, they take people out of high school/uni with zero flight time and throw them in a 777. Wild. But the training footprint does account for that to an extent.