Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[Man_in_the_sky]

Claude invoking article 35 is really a joke. He wants to drag this as long as he can so people are scared of changing him and “slow the process”.

Honestly, just pay the 286 pilots a 6 digit settlement, a pay anniversary adjusted and we’ll sign. The ulp will be over with.

[cdnavater]

Claude invoking article 35 is really a joke. He wants to drag this as long as he can so people are scared of changing him and “slow the process”.

Honestly, just pay the 286 pilots a 6 digit settlement, a pay anniversary adjusted and we’ll sign. The ulp will be over with.

Honestly, just cut the 286 loose and let ACPA(oops, meant AC ALPA) deal with them, the ULP can just deal with the interference that AC exerted over OUR collective bargaining!

[gqra]

Claude invoking article 35 is really a joke. He wants to drag this as long as he can so people are scared of changing him and “slow the process”.

Honestly, just pay the 286 pilots a 6 digit settlement, a pay anniversary adjusted and we’ll sign. The ulp will be over with.

Honestly, just cut the 286 loose and let ACPA(oops, meant AC ALPA) deal with them, the ULP can just deal with the interference that AC exerted over OUR collective bargaining!

Getting flashbacks from MOS 7. "They're not following the flow anyways so might as well just agree to 30%." How about we get the violations resolved BEFORE we agree to any concessions? Just because this is taking a long time we shouldn't just forgive and forget about the issues that didn't affect us personally!!!

[cdnavater]

Claude invoking article 35 is really a joke. He wants to drag this as long as he can so people are scared of changing him and “slow the process”.

Honestly, just pay the 286 pilots a 6 digit settlement, a pay anniversary adjusted and we’ll sign. The ulp will be over with.

Honestly, just cut the 286 loose and let ACPA(oops, meant AC ALPA) deal with them, the ULP can just deal with the interference that AC exerted over OUR collective bargaining!

Getting flashbacks from MOS 7. "They're not following the flow anyways so might as well just agree to 30%." How about we get the violations resolved BEFORE we agree to any concessions? Just because this is taking a long time we shouldn't just forgive and forget about the issues that didn't affect us personally!!!

Yes, I agree! My comment was sarcasm directed towards, boy in the sky and his comments about the ULP, his narcissistic view is that only the 286 were affected and no other Jazz pilot current or past was harmed by AC actions.
The fact of the matter is the ULP was filed as a direct result of the interference with our contract negotiations and the flow violation was added in later, secondary and likely less of a settlement than he thinks for them, if anything at all

[Man_in_the_sky]

Claude invoking article 35 is really a joke. He wants to drag this as long as he can so people are scared of changing him and “slow the process”.

Honestly, just pay the 286 pilots a 6 digit settlement, a pay anniversary adjusted and we’ll sign. The ulp will be over with.

Honestly, just cut the 286 loose and let ACPA(oops, meant AC ALPA) deal with them, the ULP can just deal with the interference that AC exerted over OUR collective bargaining!

Nah, everyone paid their dues. Everyone deserves representation. Not because we were all on a B scale voted by the old guys that we deserve B representation.

We didn’t vote on the flow not being respected, you guys entered your name, password and voted yes to the offer, and don’t give us that crap that “we didn’t have a choice” because I had a choice and voted against that crap offer.

[truedude]

Claude invoking article 35 is really a joke. He wants to drag this as long as he can so people are scared of changing him and “slow the process”.

Honestly, just pay the 286 pilots a 6 digit settlement, a pay anniversary adjusted and we’ll sign. The ulp will be over with.

It isn't a joke. It is clear we can't negotiate terms of our employment with Jazz, making it clear that AC is actually our de facto employer. It is a very different scenario than the 90s, and a much stronger case.

[Inverted2]

Yes if Air Canada is dictating our wages and and many other facets of our employment at Jazz then who really is our employer?

[Man_in_the_sky]

Yes if Air Canada is dictating our wages and and many other facets of our employment at Jazz then who really is our employer?

Very deep question. Call ac crew sked about a specific pairing. Call ac payroll for a pay claim. Also call ac duty pilot if you have any issue. I think everyone know who your employer is, in doubt, open your bank statement and see the deposit’s origin.

Hope this helps

[rudder]

Claude invoking article 35 is really a joke. He wants to drag this as long as he can so people are scared of changing him and “slow the process”.

Honestly, just pay the 286 pilots a 6 digit settlement, a pay anniversary adjusted and we’ll sign. The ulp will be over with.

It isn't a joke. It is clear we can't negotiate terms of our employment with Jazz, making it clear that AC is actually our de facto employer. It is a very different scenario than the 90s, and a much stronger case.

Remember posters who said “you do not have to file for a common employer petition to get a common employer order from the CIRB”? Looks like the ALPA lawyers cleared up that particular misunderstanding.

Comparisons to the previous application when the regionals were wholly-owned subsidiaries of AC? You are correct - a very different scenario except the underlying facts are not more compelling. Go back and read the submissions, the replies, and most importantly - the decision. Remember that the CIRB is not a court of law. It is a tribunal. And at the core of its objectives is “to promote labour peace and labour stability”. So its first responsibility is to measure allegations contained in a petition against the standard of the statute. But even if that standard is met, it then has discretion on remedy. The CIRB will not issue an order that creates more problems than it solves.

If the JAZ MEC is at the point where all it has left is the threat of a single employer application, then it has failed. The filing would be strenuously opposed by the ACA MEC, AC, and Jazz. It would purportedly be intended to create leverage. The only value would be if the CIRB has invited the application. Is that the case? Probably not.

Things have been trending badly for the pilots at Jazz for quite a while. Shrinking fleet. Shrinking flying. Shrinking pilot population. Challenges in attracting or retaining experienced pilots. The best case scenario is to maintain a fleet of 80 fins with 950 line pilots to fly them. And that has to be managed with all of the challenges that exist in the industry. The only good news for the employer is that 2025 and likely 2026 will represent a lull in the previously unprecedented volume of external opportunities for qualified pilots.

There is some validity to the alleged CBA breaches and conduct asserted in the ULP. I would recalibrate and come back to the CIRB with proposed remedy that more accurately quantifies harm and in a form where implementation will not be prohibitively problematic. It appears that any attempts to create allies or a coalition has either been overlooked or unsuccessful. Therefore the only option left is the grace of the CIRB. That may turn out to be a strategy with an unfulfilling outcome.

[truedude]

Yes if Air Canada is dictating our wages and and many other facets of our employment at Jazz then who really is our employer?

Very deep question. Call ac crew sked about a specific pairing. Call ac payroll for a pay claim. Also call ac duty pilot if you have any issue. I think everyone know who your employer is, in doubt, open your bank statement and see the deposit’s origin.

Hope this helps

That isn't how common employer is determined. Maybe take a look at some of the common employer rulings over the last couple decades.

Once again, for the people in the back, when an employee group can't negotiate wages and working conditions with their employer on paper, but rather needs a third parties approval, then it becomes clear the third party is the de facto employer.

[truedude]

Claude invoking article 35 is really a joke. He wants to drag this as long as he can so people are scared of changing him and “slow the process”.

Honestly, just pay the 286 pilots a 6 digit settlement, a pay anniversary adjusted and we’ll sign. The ulp will be over with.

It isn't a joke. It is clear we can't negotiate terms of our employment with Jazz, making it clear that AC is actually our de facto employer. It is a very different scenario than the 90s, and a much stronger case.

Remember posters who said “you do not have to file for a common employer petition to get a common employer order from the CIRB”? Looks like the ALPA lawyers cleared up that particular misunderstanding.

Comparisons to the previous application when the regionals were wholly-owned subsidiaries of AC? You are correct - a very different scenario except the underlying facts are not more compelling. Go back and read the submissions, the replies, and most importantly - the decision. Remember that the CIRB is not a court of law. It is a tribunal. And at the core of its objectives is “to promote labour peace and labour stability”. So its first responsibility is to measure allegations contained in a petition against the standard of the statute. But even if that standard is met, it then has discretion on remedy. The CIRB will not issue an order that creates more problems than it solves.

If the JAZ MEC is at the point where all it has left is the threat of a single employer application, then it has failed. The filing would be strenuously opposed by the ACA MEC, AC, and Jazz. It would purportedly be intended to create leverage. The only value would be if the CIRB has invited the application. Is that the case? Probably not.

Things have been trending badly for the pilots at Jazz for quite a while. Shrinking fleet. Shrinking flying. Shrinking pilot population. Challenges in attracting or retaining experienced pilots. The best case scenario is to maintain a fleet of 80 fins with 950 line pilots to fly them. And that has to be managed with all of the challenges that exist in the industry. The only good news for the employer is that 2025 and likely 2026 will represent a lull in the previously unprecedented volume of external opportunities for qualified pilots.

There is some validity to the alleged CBA breaches and conduct asserted in the ULP. I would recalibrate and come back to the CIRB with proposed remedy that more accurately quantifies harm and in a form where implementation will not be prohibitively problematic. It appears that any attempts to create allies or a coalition has either been overlooked or unsuccessful. Therefore the only option left is the grace of the CIRB. That may turn out to be a strategy with an unfulfilling outcome.

Lawyers made a submission, and we shall see how the CIRB rules. Given you are now retired, your knowledge of what is happening is limited, and your past commentary hasn't always hit the mark.

The CIRB still has to make rulings based on law, and can't ignore the law in the name of "labor peace." As that simply invites corporations to violate labor rights by arguing it would create instability to enforce employee rights. That argument is ridiculous on its face.

And I have read the ACA submission, it is utterly ridiculous, filled with very little legal arguments, but rather a lot of whining, including a bunch of pages wasted on talking about CALPA.

[hithere]

Apparently(according to JAZ MEC legal counsel) 100% direct ownership is not required(although AC currently does own 10% of Jazz anyway). De facto control can be used to prove a common/single employer and there is CIRB precedent for this in other industries.

[PostmasterGeneral]

ACA MEC submitted 143 pages of precedent where previous petitions for common employer were not upheld. Many examples of which far more egregious than JAZ’ submission.

Truedude is right, the CIRB will rule based on law, and any previously set precedents. Unfortunately for this ULP, the law is stacked very heavily against JAZ MEC’s submission.

If this is the only play that Claude has left, he’s wasting it in spectacular fashion. What does the MEC have to gain by dragging this out for a further few years?

[truedude]

ACA MEC submitted 143 pages of precedent where previous petitions for common employer were not upheld. Many examples of which far more egregious than JAZ’ submission.

Truedude is right, the CIRB will rule based on law, and any previously set precedents. Unfortunately for this ULP, the law is stacked very heavily against JAZ MEC’s submission.

If this is the only play that Claude has left, he’s wasting it in spectacular fashion. What does the MEC have to gain by dragging this out for a further few years?

I read the submission. It wasn't very strong at all. A lot of cheat beating, but nothing substantial.

[Bede]

Does the Jazz MEC have their own legal counsel for this ULP or are they using ALPA external counsel(CaleyWray)?

The reason I ask is that I'd be surprised if ALPA legal was on board. This ULP seems intent on forcing a merger which is against the ACPA-ALPA merger agreement. Also the ALPA merger policy prohibits use of ALPA legal for merger applications.

[Bede]

I read the submission. It wasn't very strong at all. A lot of cheat beating, but nothing substantial.

What specifically did you disagree with? Doesn't it explicitly state that it supports the Jazz pilots ULP but disagrees that a merger is the appropriate remedy?

[GIVCE!]

Are these submissions public information ? Can anyone access them? Link? What a mess this is turning out to be. I fully expect another ‘can kick’ update at the end of the month.

[PostmasterGeneral]

ACA MEC submitted 143 pages of precedent where previous petitions for common employer were not upheld. Many examples of which far more egregious than JAZ’ submission.

Truedude is right, the CIRB will rule based on law, and any previously set precedents. Unfortunately for this ULP, the law is stacked very heavily against JAZ MEC’s submission.

If this is the only play that Claude has left, he’s wasting it in spectacular fashion. What does the MEC have to gain by dragging this out for a further few years?

I read the submission. It wasn't very strong at all. A lot of cheat beating, but nothing substantial.

No, I don't think you did. Because if you did, you'd see that it wasn't chest beating at all. It was 143 pages of failed common employer status applications from the past. That's all. No opinion, no spin, just historical judgements. Facts. Pretty substantial by anyone's standards.

It's obvious you are very passionate about this issue, but at some point you need to face reality. JAZ' case holds no water on the common employer front. Now, if they were smart and were able to pivot and seek damages for the harm caused on some other grounds, they might be able to gain restitution. But going down this common employer road is going to get them nowhere.

I think AC should be held accountable for any interference caused, but the common employer tactic is just grasping at straws at this point. It's evident Claude and the boys don't actually care to see this resolved. By the way, how's that new kitchen?

[PostmasterGeneral]

I read the submission. It wasn't very strong at all. A lot of cheat beating, but nothing substantial.

What specifically did you disagree with? Doesn't it explicitly state that it supports the Jazz pilots ULP but disagrees that a merger is the appropriate remedy?

It was a couple pages of AC MEC stating that they do support JAZ seeking restitution, but that they should do so without the notion of obtaining common employer status if they want to be successful. It then provided a bunch of examples of failed common employer application cases in Canada.

[truedude]

ACA MEC submitted 143 pages of precedent where previous petitions for common employer were not upheld. Many examples of which far more egregious than JAZ’ submission.

Truedude is right, the CIRB will rule based on law, and any previously set precedents. Unfortunately for this ULP, the law is stacked very heavily against JAZ MEC’s submission.

If this is the only play that Claude has left, he’s wasting it in spectacular fashion. What does the MEC have to gain by dragging this out for a further few years?

I read the submission. It wasn't very strong at all. A lot of cheat beating, but nothing substantial.

No, I don't think you did. Because if you did, you'd see that it wasn't chest beating at all. It was 143 pages of failed common employer status applications from the past. That's all. No opinion, no spin, just historical judgements. Facts. Pretty substantial by anyone's standards.

It's obvious you are very passionate about this issue, but at some point you need to face reality. JAZ' case holds no water on the common employer front. Now, if they were smart and were able to pivot and seek damages for the harm caused on some other grounds, they might be able to gain restitution. But going down this common employer road is going to get them nowhere.

I think AC should be held accountable for any interference caused, but the common employer tactic is just grasping at straws at this point. It's evident Claude and the boys don't actually care to see this resolved. By the way, how's that new kitchen?

If you don't think Jazz pilots have a case, and believe that so strongly, then it shouldn't concern you what Jazz pilots do or don't do. But one doesnt essentially try to use every single failed common employer application as evidence if you aren't concerned. The CIRB knows the threshold, they don't need to be reminded of what that is. And you don't case dump like that if your argument is strong, it is usually done when your argument is weak.

The case is strong, but if you truly believe their is no case, then you have nothing to worry about.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I do believe Jazz pilots have a case against AC, but using the premise of common employer to try and seek resolution is laughable. Your own union is squandering the opportunity for restitution right in front of the entire pilot group. This is much bigger than "the 285."

I'll try and give you an anaolgy you'll understand: Imagine being pulled over for speeding. They've got you on dash cam, the cop's radar gun, it's an iron clad case. But instead, the cop charges you with indecent exposure or something. Of course that's going to get thrown out in court, you're off the hook, case closed.

That's what JAZ MEC is doing here. Completely squandering the opportunity for restitution. They know common employer holds no water. The question you should be asking of your union, is why pursue it? Is this truly the only arrow left in the quiver? Or are Claude and the boys trying to drag this out to make it look like they tried their best, all the way from Hawaii.

Believe me, I'm not worried. The outcome wouldn't affect me in the slightest, but I'd like to see the Jazz pilots stick it to AC on this one. They're about to blow the opportunity.

[truedude]

I do believe Jazz pilots have a case against AC, but using the premise of common employer to try and seek resolution is laughable. Your own union is squandering the opportunity for restitution right in front of the entire pilot group. This is much bigger than "the 285."

I'll try and give you an anaolgy you'll understand: Imagine being pulled over for speeding. They've got you on dash cam, the cop's radar gun, it's an iron clad case. But instead, the cop charges you with indecent exposure or something. Of course that's going to get thrown out in court, you're off the hook, case closed.

That's what JAZ MEC is doing here. Completely squandering the opportunity for restitution. They know common employer holds no water. The question you should be asking of your union, is why pursue it? Is this truly the only arrow left in the quiver? Or are Claude and the boys trying to drag this out to make it look like they tried their best, all the way from Hawaii.

Believe me, I'm not worried. The outcome wouldn't affect me in the slightest, but I'd like to see the Jazz pilots stick it to AC on this one. They're about to blow the opportunity.

I will trust our lawyer over your opinion. And since your union hasn't been honest about how and why they applied for intervener status, I wouldn't put much faith in anything else they say. Especially a document dump like they are trying. It is just sad to see they are still stuck in the 90s.

We have a case, the CIRB has said are complaints have merrit, and when they rule at the end of the month, I suspect ACA will better understand the gravity of the situation. Or at least be unable to spin nonsense.

[hithere]

The ULP was filed OVER 2 YEARS ago. The JAZ MEC executive and negotiating committee have been extremely patient with ACA and the CIRB recognizes this. The ACA executive has been dragging their heals on this, pissing away time the board’s mediation dates(showing up unprepared etc)and frustrating the process. Meanwhile Jazz faces an existential crisis of being completely unable attract/retain/upgrade Captains. Only increased pay and a flow arrangement will fix this. Morale at Jazz is abysmal as we watch this airline park tails and fade into irrelevancy. Forgive us if we are slightly more concerned and impatient with this process than you are.
AC management can fix the pay issue(notice I said AC and not Jazz because AC holds the purse strings) but ACA needs to agree to a flow arrangement . So when everything hinges on a party that is frustrating the process, one needs to apply whatever force it can. If the threat of a Section 35 helps convince ACA to get their act together that’s great and we can all fix this mess amicably. However if nothing happens soon I think that threat will turn into reality.

[Mr. North]

The ULP was filed OVER 2 YEARS ago. The JAZ MEC executive and negotiating committee have been extremely patient with ACA and the CIRB recognizes this. The ACA executive has been dragging their heals on this, pissing away time the board’s mediation dates(showing up unprepared etc)and frustrating the process. Meanwhile Jazz faces an existential crisis of being completely unable attract/retain/upgrade Captains. Only increased pay and a flow arrangement will fix this. Morale at Jazz is abysmal as we watch this airline park tails and fade into irrelevancy. Forgive us if we are slightly more concerned and impatient with this process than you are.
AC management can fix the pay issue(notice I said AC and not Jazz because AC holds the purse strings) but ACA needs to agree to a flow arrangement . So when everything hinges on a party that is frustrating the process, one needs to apply whatever force it can. If the threat of a Section 35 helps convince ACA to get their act together that’s great and we can all fix this mess amicably. However if nothing happens soon I think that threat will turn into reality.

And what happens a few years from now when PML 3.0 fails again? Is Jazz going to threaten ACA with Section 35 once more? I think the threats of common employer, made consistently over the past couple of decades, are played out.

The Jazz MEC made a critical error here by expanding the war to two fronts. As others have mentioned above, this should have been solely against Jazz/AC. Posturing for Sect 35 only aggravates an already complex situation by completely alienating ACA, who now have no choice but to take an aggressive stance to protect their seniority. It would have been better to keep us onside imo. As mentioned, this ULP is 2 years old already and could take another year if it goes to litigation. Section 35 would take 3+ years, not to mention another year or so for an appeal. None of that helps Jazz pilots TODAY, and quite frankly, I don't think the Jazz membership has the capacity to wait that long. I don't think they would have played this card if they weren't desperate for a deal, it's incredibly divisive, yields nothing in the near term, and places questionable results waaaaay out into the future... Makes me think their ULP is weak and that they fear litigation. Here's hoping they recover from this error, make peace, and find a way to compromise on a deal we can all swallow.

[truedude]

The ULP was filed OVER 2 YEARS ago. The JAZ MEC executive and negotiating committee have been extremely patient with ACA and the CIRB recognizes this. The ACA executive has been dragging their heals on this, pissing away time the board’s mediation dates(showing up unprepared etc)and frustrating the process. Meanwhile Jazz faces an existential crisis of being completely unable attract/retain/upgrade Captains. Only increased pay and a flow arrangement will fix this. Morale at Jazz is abysmal as we watch this airline park tails and fade into irrelevancy. Forgive us if we are slightly more concerned and impatient with this process than you are.
AC management can fix the pay issue(notice I said AC and not Jazz because AC holds the purse strings) but ACA needs to agree to a flow arrangement . So when everything hinges on a party that is frustrating the process, one needs to apply whatever force it can. If the threat of a Section 35 helps convince ACA to get their act together that’s great and we can all fix this mess amicably. However if nothing happens soon I think that threat will turn into reality.

And what happens a few years from now when PML 3.0 fails again? Is Jazz going to threaten ACA with Section 35 once more? I think the threats of common employer, made consistently over the past couple of decades, are played out.

The Jazz MEC made a critical error here by expanding the war to two fronts. As others have mentioned above, this should have been solely against Jazz/AC. Posturing for Sect 35 only aggravates an already complex situation by completely alienating ACA, who now have no choice but to take an aggressive stance to protect their seniority. It would have been better to keep us onside imo. As mentioned, this ULP is 2 years old already and could take another year if it goes to litigation. Section 35 would take 3+ years, not to mention another year or so for an appeal. None of that helps Jazz pilots TODAY, and quite frankly, I don't think the Jazz membership has the capacity to wait that long. I don't think they would have played this card if they weren't desperate for a deal, it's incredibly divisive, yields nothing in the near term, and places questionable results waaaaay out into the future... Makes me think their ULP is weak and that they fear litigation. Here's hoping they recover from this error, make peace, and find a way to compromise on a deal we can all swallow.

Amazing how little the AC pilots know about the sequence of events that have transpired. Nothing was filed against ACA, but they were invited to participate. They didnt want to participate in good faith, and were told to leave, but also that the final outcome may impact them, and as such they should apply for intervener status. Which they then did, and received. It is why they were in a position to file their nonsense. But because they have intervener status, they are now have no choice but to accept the resolution, with no escape route like the 90s.

We lose absolutely nothing by filing a common employer. And that is the point. We have nothing to lose. So if ACA and the pilots don't think it has any merrit, then let us waste our time and money... But then also don't complain if we are successful and yiu learn later that your representatives could have mitigated the outcome had they just taken this entire thing seriously from the start.