Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[Bede]

I do believe Jazz pilots have a case against AC, but using the premise of common employer to try and seek resolution is laughable. Your own union is squandering the opportunity for restitution right in front of the entire pilot group. This is much bigger than "the 285."

I'll try and give you an anaolgy you'll understand: Imagine being pulled over for speeding. They've got you on dash cam, the cop's radar gun, it's an iron clad case. But instead, the cop charges you with indecent exposure or something. Of course that's going to get thrown out in court, you're off the hook, case closed.

That's what JAZ MEC is doing here. Completely squandering the opportunity for restitution. They know common employer holds no water. The question you should be asking of your union, is why pursue it? Is this truly the only arrow left in the quiver? Or are Claude and the boys trying to drag this out to make it look like they tried their best, all the way from Hawaii.

Believe me, I'm not worried. The outcome wouldn't affect me in the slightest, but I'd like to see the Jazz pilots stick it to AC on this one. They're about to blow the opportunity.

I will trust our lawyer over your opinion. And since your union hasn't been honest about how and why they applied for intervener status, I wouldn't put much faith in anything else they say. Especially a document dump like they are trying. It is just sad to see they are still stuck in the 90s.

We have a case, the CIRB has said are complaints have merrit, and when they rule at the end of the month, I suspect ACA will better understand the gravity of the situation. Or at least be unable to spin nonsense.

I don't think you understand how lawyer's work. Of course you should "trust" your lawyer over a random internet poster. But, you haven't seen your lawyer's opinion. Legal filings are not the lawyer's opinion. The lawyer gave his opinion to the MEC and then they decided what instructions to give the lawyer.

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but Postmaster's posts are bang on. I don't care either way, but I was at Jazz 15 years ago and this, sadly, is just the same poorly thought out strategy that I witnessed when I was there. Do the Jazz pilots have a legitimate grievance? yes, but this is not the type of grievance that gives rise to a successful s. 35 application.

Just because AC might of approved the contract (which still hasn't been established), this is completely normal in a CPA/cost plus type business arrangement. It happens all the time. It still doesn't make it the de facto employer. If it did, since these types of business arrangements are common, you'd see these types of applications all the time.

[truedude]

I do believe Jazz pilots have a case against AC, but using the premise of common employer to try and seek resolution is laughable. Your own union is squandering the opportunity for restitution right in front of the entire pilot group. This is much bigger than "the 285."

I'll try and give you an anaolgy you'll understand: Imagine being pulled over for speeding. They've got you on dash cam, the cop's radar gun, it's an iron clad case. But instead, the cop charges you with indecent exposure or something. Of course that's going to get thrown out in court, you're off the hook, case closed.

That's what JAZ MEC is doing here. Completely squandering the opportunity for restitution. They know common employer holds no water. The question you should be asking of your union, is why pursue it? Is this truly the only arrow left in the quiver? Or are Claude and the boys trying to drag this out to make it look like they tried their best, all the way from Hawaii.

Believe me, I'm not worried. The outcome wouldn't affect me in the slightest, but I'd like to see the Jazz pilots stick it to AC on this one. They're about to blow the opportunity.

I will trust our lawyer over your opinion. And since your union hasn't been honest about how and why they applied for intervener status, I wouldn't put much faith in anything else they say. Especially a document dump like they are trying. It is just sad to see they are still stuck in the 90s.

We have a case, the CIRB has said are complaints have merrit, and when they rule at the end of the month, I suspect ACA will better understand the gravity of the situation. Or at least be unable to spin nonsense.

I don't think you understand how lawyer's work. Of course you should "trust" your lawyer over a random internet poster. But, you haven't seen your lawyer's opinion. Legal filings are not the lawyer's opinion. The lawyer gave his opinion to the MEC and then they decided what instructions to give the lawyer.

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but Postmaster's posts are bang on. I don't care either way, but I was at Jazz 15 years ago and this, sadly, is just the same poorly thought out strategy that I witnessed when I was there. Do the Jazz pilots have a legitimate grievance? yes, but this is not the type of grievance that gives rise to a successful s. 35 application.

Just because AC might of approved the contract (which still hasn't been established), this is completely normal in a CPA/cost plus type business arrangement. It happens all the time. It still doesn't make it the de facto employer. If it did, since these types of business arrangements are common, you'd see these types of applications all the time.

It is the way they interfered, and yes it does meet the criteria for a section 35, particularly if you look at the reasons why the Rouge application failed. They couldn't show AC management directly interfering in contract talks, whereas we can. The simple fact is, you are not aware of all the facts, nor have all the information, and neither do most on AvCanada. Perhaps you should worry about your own house.

You guys at WJ got beaten hard during your merger, on part because you ignored your lawyers. And now you have your own ULP for secret deals you made with WJ which likely screwed over Sunwing guys. Agreements you still refuse to turn over. And you guys signed despite I believe being advised against doing so by your lawyers. So good luck with that...

[skyhighh]

Sunwing guys getting screwed over? Can you explain this?

[truedude]

Sunwing guys getting screwed over? Can you explain this?

There was mention of it on the westjet page... There was am agreement signed between the WJA and Westjet corporate, which included some money being transferred. But the terms of the agreement remain secret, with both parties refusing to show what was included in the agreement.

[NSFly]

My understanding of the communications from the MEC are that if the resolution handed down regarding the ULP is not satisfactory, they will seek common employer. I don't think that ball is rolling just yet.

[truedude]

My understanding of the communications from the MEC are that if the resolution handed down regarding the ULP is not satisfactory, they will seek common employer. I don't think that ball is rolling just yet.

It is not. And no one has a strong desire to go that route. But if the ULP doesnt provide a long term solution to hiring and retention at Jazz, then there really isn't anything to lose for Jazz pilots to pursue it. But it will likely require a seniority solution, which requires participation from ACA.

[cdnavater]

I do believe Jazz pilots have a case against AC, but using the premise of common employer to try and seek resolution is laughable. Your own union is squandering the opportunity for restitution right in front of the entire pilot group. This is much bigger than "the 285."

I'll try and give you an anaolgy you'll understand: Imagine being pulled over for speeding. They've got you on dash cam, the cop's radar gun, it's an iron clad case. But instead, the cop charges you with indecent exposure or something. Of course that's going to get thrown out in court, you're off the hook, case closed.

That's what JAZ MEC is doing here. Completely squandering the opportunity for restitution. They know common employer holds no water. The question you should be asking of your union, is why pursue it? Is this truly the only arrow left in the quiver? Or are Claude and the boys trying to drag this out to make it look like they tried their best, all the way from Hawaii.

Believe me, I'm not worried. The outcome wouldn't affect me in the slightest, but I'd like to see the Jazz pilots stick it to AC on this one. They're about to blow the opportunity.

I will trust our lawyer over your opinion. And since your union hasn't been honest about how and why they applied for intervener status, I wouldn't put much faith in anything else they say. Especially a document dump like they are trying. It is just sad to see they are still stuck in the 90s.

We have a case, the CIRB has said are complaints have merrit, and when they rule at the end of the month, I suspect ACA will better understand the gravity of the situation. Or at least be unable to spin nonsense.

I don't think you understand how lawyer's work. Of course you should "trust" your lawyer over a random internet poster. But, you haven't seen your lawyer's opinion. Legal filings are not the lawyer's opinion. The lawyer gave his opinion to the MEC and then they decided what instructions to give the lawyer.

I don't have a dog in this fight either, but Postmaster's posts are bang on. I don't care either way, but I was at Jazz 15 years ago and this, sadly, is just the same poorly thought out strategy that I witnessed when I was there. Do the Jazz pilots have a legitimate grievance? yes, but this is not the type of grievance that gives rise to a successful s. 35 application.

Just because AC might of approved the contract (which still hasn't been established), this is completely normal in a CPA/cost plus type business arrangement. It happens all the time. It still doesn't make it the de facto employer. If it did, since these types of business arrangements are common, you'd see these types of applications all the time.

It has been established, the communication at the time was that we had negotiated an MOU with Jazz management(our employer) that would be put to a vote, the next day when we thought we were getting the details of the MOU, instead we got a snapshot of what just transpired.
To be fair, I don’t remember the medium we received the communication and can’t find it but Claude stated that AC refused to abide by our agreement and essentially slide a piece of paper across the table of what they were willing to pay. At that point we walked away and some further negotiations transpired over the next short time, I assume with AC since they clearly held the purse strings.
We then received communication that they had another MOU, the message and in retrospect might of been when we got the whole story but essentially we were going to vote on this new agreement that was clearly less than the previous agreement because Claude did not recommend we vote yes but felt it would be irresponsible to not let us vote.
So, if we had a agreement with Jazz, you would assume they already had approval from AC if it was in fact needed, why would our MEC think that we could negotiate with Jazz, announce we had a deal if they knew they still had to pass through AC?
Why would Jazz negotiate an agreement with our MEC that they knew they needed approval from AC without communicating that?
Fact is, AC stepped in and interfered with our collective bargaining with our employer and became our de facto employer, in my opinion and we will find out soon if the CIRB agrees!
I will also add, this is obviously not the first agreement with Jazz while under CPA with AC, it clearly caught our MEC of guard and lead to the immediate filing of a ULP, I believe the same day or very shortly after ratification, I’m pretty certain Claude said he handed Jazz the signed agreement with prejudice and ALPA Canada had filed the ULP on our behalf, this part I’m a bit foggy on.

[GIVCE!]

Also, Air Canada actually ‘owns’ 10% of Jazz. Don’t know how much more ‘common’ it could get…well, I guess, about 90%, but still. Can you sight another example of your ‘cost plus CPA’s’ Bede where the other company gave two shits what the others companies bottom line was? I am unaware of any.

[truedude]

Also, Air Canada actually ‘owns’ 10% of Jazz. Don’t know how much more ‘common’ it could get…well, I guess, about 90%, but still. Can you sight another example of your ‘cost plus CPA’s’ Bede where the other company gave two shits what the others companies bottom line was? I am unaware of any.

The big one was when they sent back a pay table. They completely blew past every line, making it clear we were never in negotiations with Jazz, but rather AC.

So if AC pilots want to be mad at someone, be mad with AC management. We are just playing the cards we were given. We would have much preferred the pay issue had been taken seriously when Porter started taking our guys. Had it been taken seriously then, Jazz never would be in this current position. But they waited to long, and then they directly interfered, crossing the line and giving us what was needed to potentially file a common employer.

[Bede]

It is the way they interfered, and yes it does meet the criteria for a section 35, particularly if you look at the reasons why the Rouge application failed. They couldn't show AC management directly interfering in contract talks, whereas we can. The simple fact is, you are not aware of all the facts, nor have all the information, and neither do most on AvCanada. Perhaps you should worry about your own house.

Funny. Every time I make a good faith effort to get more information from you, none are provided. Instead, once again, you turn to ad hominem attacks. Honestly, I think Jazz MEC has a case, but I think a good opportunity is once again wasted pursing an attempt to get on the AC seniority list using a novel interpretation of the law.

This doesn't surprise me though, Jazz pilots never miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

You guys at WJ got beaten hard during your merger, on part because you ignored your lawyers.

Where in the world do you come up with crap like "ignored your lawyers"?

There are rules that mergers. Every merger in the last 30 years has a seniority list that ends up somewhere between DOH (although DOH hasn't been arbitrated in 30+ years) and status and category (basically start ratioing SWG guys at the most senior WJ 737 CA, then ratio FO's). Also, in every merger, every captain retains their seat and displaced captains get reinstatement rights if they get bumped out.

And now you have your own ULP for secret deals you made with WJ which likely screwed over Sunwing guys. Agreements you still refuse to turn over. And you guys signed despite I believe being advised against doing so by your lawyers. So good luck with that...

I haven't seen any secret deal or agreement. WJ was supposed to file the CIRB application, but ALPA ended up doing it because ALPA has the expertise and WJ management screwed up the mechanics Application. As you know, ALPA dictates that pilots pay all merger related expenses out of pocket (not tax deductible BTW).WJ pilots aren't going to be paying out of pocket to carry the cost of pursuing WestJets CIRB application for them.

[GIVCE!]

Any Jazz pilot ‘trying to get on the seniority list’ at AC is doing it through the flow agreement. Which, granted, has/had its shortcomings. Hence the ULP. No senior pilot, of your ‘ex-Jazz’ vintage is trying get on their list. We don’t want their contract or WAWCON. To be junior there is brutal. Our contract and benefits far exceeds theirs, especially at top scale, as you know. We are not ‘missing an opportunity’ as you say.

To be fair, you haven’t provided any further information to me about the other CPA’s where the other company cares about the providers bottom line and salary scale.

[Bede]

Any Jazz pilot ‘trying to get on the seniority list’ at AC is doing it through the flow agreement. Which, granted, has/had its shortcomings. Hence the ULP. No senior pilot, of your ‘ex-Jazz’ vintage is trying get on their list. We don’t want their contract or WAWCON. To be junior there is brutal. Our contract and benefits far exceeds theirs, especially at top scale, as you know. We are not ‘missing an opportunity’ as you say.

Fair points

Any Jazz pilot ‘trying to get on the seniority list’ at AC is doing it through the flow agreement. Which, granted, has/had its shortcomings. Hence the ULP. No senior pilot, of your ‘ex-Jazz’ vintage is trying get on their list. We don’t want their contract or WAWCON. To be junior there is brutal. Our contract and benefits far exceeds theirs, especially at top scale, as you know. We are not ‘missing an opportunity’ as you say.

To be fair, you haven’t provided any further information to me about the other CPA’s where the other company cares about the providers bottom line and salary scale.

Literally every costs plus contract is like this. I'm obviously not privy to any CPA contracts but this is a very common business arrangement. Customer pays for all the suppliers costs plus a certain percentage for overhead and a certain percentage for profit. Any increase in the supplier cost is passed on so obviously, the customer will dictate any controllable cost increases.

[truedude]

Any Jazz pilot ‘trying to get on the seniority list’ at AC is doing it through the flow agreement. Which, granted, has/had its shortcomings. Hence the ULP. No senior pilot, of your ‘ex-Jazz’ vintage is trying get on their list. We don’t want their contract or WAWCON. To be junior there is brutal. Our contract and benefits far exceeds theirs, especially at top scale, as you know. We are not ‘missing an opportunity’ as you say.

Fair points

Any Jazz pilot ‘trying to get on the seniority list’ at AC is doing it through the flow agreement. Which, granted, has/had its shortcomings. Hence the ULP. No senior pilot, of your ‘ex-Jazz’ vintage is trying get on their list. We don’t want their contract or WAWCON. To be junior there is brutal. Our contract and benefits far exceeds theirs, especially at top scale, as you know. We are not ‘missing an opportunity’ as you say.

To be fair, you haven’t provided any further information to me about the other CPA’s where the other company cares about the providers bottom line and salary scale.

Literally every costs plus contract is like this. I'm obviously not privy to any CPA contracts but this is a very common business arrangement. Customer pays for all the suppliers costs plus a certain percentage for overhead and a certain percentage for profit. Any increase in the supplier cost is passed on so obviously, the customer will dictate any controllable cost increases.

That doesnt entitle them to get directly involved in negotiations, or to outright dictate pay tables, as AC did. You simply don't have all the facts, and really have shown a poor understanding in general of what is happening. I would worry about your own ULP that you need to deal with.

[Bede]

The ULP is against the Corp, not the union.

Anyways, we'll find out soon enough who understands s. 35.

[truedude]

The ULP is against the Corp, not the union.

Anyways, we'll find out soon enough who understands s. 35.

Can't wait to see what was in that agreement... suspect it is just the start

[NSFly]

Also, Air Canada actually ‘owns’ 10% of Jazz. Don’t know how much more ‘common’ it could get…well, I guess, about 90%, but still. Can you sight another example of your ‘cost plus CPA’s’ Bede where the other company gave two shits what the others companies bottom line was? I am unaware of any.

The big one was when they sent back a pay table. They completely blew past every line, making it clear we were never in negotiations with Jazz, but rather AC.

So if AC pilots want to be mad at someone, be mad with AC management. We are just playing the cards we were given. We would have much preferred the pay issue had been taken seriously when Porter started taking our guys. Had it been taken seriously then, Jazz never would be in this current position. But they waited to long, and then they directly interfered, crossing the line and giving us what was needed to potentially file a common employer.

I was told that the additional amount that Jazz, the company, wanted to pay was going to come out of their own pockets. It was never a cost that was to be passed on to AC. Regardless, AC vetoed it because it was going to be more than their new hires made.

[GIVCE!]

This was how I understood it playing out also. Hence the interference allegations and the common employer allegations. It is very complex. How an arbitrator will rule, barring any settlement or mutual agreement, is anyone’s guess. The facts are there. How long will it take is the more pertinent question. Play this out long enough and no one will be around who gives a shit anymore. Have a good weekend. Maybe next week Claude will provide our update and it will be positive, …holding my breath…

[Man_in_the_sky]

Also, Air Canada actually ‘owns’ 10% of Jazz. Don’t know how much more ‘common’ it could get…well, I guess, about 90%, but still. Can you sight another example of your ‘cost plus CPA’s’ Bede where the other company gave two shits what the others companies bottom line was? I am unaware of any.

The big one was when they sent back a pay table. They completely blew past every line, making it clear we were never in negotiations with Jazz, but rather AC.

So if AC pilots want to be mad at someone, be mad with AC management. We are just playing the cards we were given. We would have much preferred the pay issue had been taken seriously when Porter started taking our guys. Had it been taken seriously then, Jazz never would be in this current position. But they waited to long, and then they directly interfered, crossing the line and giving us what was needed to potentially file a common employer.

Why would ac pilots be mad? It’s business as usual

[truedude]

Also, Air Canada actually ‘owns’ 10% of Jazz. Don’t know how much more ‘common’ it could get…well, I guess, about 90%, but still. Can you sight another example of your ‘cost plus CPA’s’ Bede where the other company gave two shits what the others companies bottom line was? I am unaware of any.

The big one was when they sent back a pay table. They completely blew past every line, making it clear we were never in negotiations with Jazz, but rather AC.

So if AC pilots want to be mad at someone, be mad with AC management. We are just playing the cards we were given. We would have much preferred the pay issue had been taken seriously when Porter started taking our guys. Had it been taken seriously then, Jazz never would be in this current position. But they waited to long, and then they directly interfered, crossing the line and giving us what was needed to potentially file a common employer.

Why would ac pilots be mad? It’s business as usual

Sure seem to be a lot on here that want to keep telling us it is a wrong play and won't go anywhere... People who don't care usually don't bother to express an opinion.

[Man_in_the_sky]

The big one was when they sent back a pay table. They completely blew past every line, making it clear we were never in negotiations with Jazz, but rather AC.

So if AC pilots want to be mad at someone, be mad with AC management. We are just playing the cards we were given. We would have much preferred the pay issue had been taken seriously when Porter started taking our guys. Had it been taken seriously then, Jazz never would be in this current position. But they waited to long, and then they directly interfered, crossing the line and giving us what was needed to potentially file a common employer.

Why would ac pilots be mad? It’s business as usual

Sure seem to be a lot on here that want to keep telling us it is a wrong play and won't go anywhere... People who don't care usually don't bother to express an opinion.

Sharing past knowledge i think. The time will tell us how hard of a case Claudr has.

I’m just dissapointed that he highjacked a home run case like the 285 violation to fulfil his agenda, but that’s just me.

[truedude]

Why would ac pilots be mad? It’s business as usual

Sure seem to be a lot on here that want to keep telling us it is a wrong play and won't go anywhere... People who don't care usually don't bother to express an opinion.

Sharing past knowledge i think. The time will tell us how hard of a case Claudr has.

I’m just dissapointed that he highjacked a home run case like the 285 violation to fulfil his agenda, but that’s just me.

It was never just about the 285 pilots. It was so much bigger than that. And if we end up filing the common employer and we are successful... what will you say then?

[cdnavater]

Sure seem to be a lot on here that want to keep telling us it is a wrong play and won't go anywhere... People who don't care usually don't bother to express an opinion.

Sharing past knowledge i think. The time will tell us how hard of a case Claudr has.

I’m just dissapointed that he highjacked a home run case like the 285 violation to fulfil his agenda, but that’s just me.

It was never just about the 285 pilots. It was so much bigger than that. And if we end up filing the common employer and we are successful... what will you say then?

No, to that ….guy, that is literally ALL that matters! He thinks the ULP is all about them but that is just par for the course these days!

[Bede]

It was never just about the 285 pilots. It was so much bigger than that. And if we end up filing the common employer and we are successful... what will you say then?

I will say well done. You were right, but most importantly, I was wrong.

If on the other hand you're not successful...

[truedude]

It was never just about the 285 pilots. It was so much bigger than that. And if we end up filing the common employer and we are successful... what will you say then?

I will say well done. You were right, but most importantly, I was wrong.

If on the other hand you're not successful...

We played the cards we had, and there was virtually zero downside to trying.

All Jazz pilots want to see is there is a long term plan for Jazz, and a long term solution for hiring and retention. However that comes about, I don't care. But right now there seems to be no plan, with zero real plan to recapture the prairie flying, making it challenging to hire and retain pilots, as it appears Jazz is a sinking ship.

So we either simply watch the ship sink, or we play the cards we have. And there is zero downside to attempting a section 35 as a last resort. And we have a very strong case that they breached the veil of separate entities when they become directly involved in contract talks, vs simply setting cost targets.

[altiplano]

there was virtually zero downside to trying.

There is significant downside to your action.
Going after another pilot group is a poor look.
This hurts pilot unity across lines.
I think JZA pilots burn themselves with ALPA national on this.
This isn't good for all of ALPA in general.

When it fails, maybe parties go after JZA MEC for costs this time. That's straight out if your MEC fund and resources for your members, not greater ALPA resources.

It's pretty clear that common employer is a vexatious attempt to revisit what already failed within the last 10 years. During that time the relationship between Air Canada and Jazz has not substantially changed.