Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[dustyroads]

[/quote]

We played the cards we had, and there was virtually zero downside to trying.

All Jazz pilots want to see is there is a long term plan for Jazz, and a long term solution for hiring and retention. However that comes about, I don't care. But right now there seems to be no plan, with zero real plan to recapture the prairie flying, making it challenging to hire and retain pilots, as it appears Jazz is a sinking ship.

So we either simply watch the ship sink, or we play the cards we have. And there is zero downside to attempting a section 35 as a last resort. And we have a very strong case that they breached the veil of separate entities when they become directly involved in contract talks, vs simply setting cost targets.
[/quote]

There’s many who have have applied to Jazz but have not been offered a position. It seems challenging to you guys on the line due to your HR people not sending out offers. There’s no shortage of experienced pilots applying, there’s a shortage of offers coming out from HR.

[truedude]

We played the cards we had, and there was virtually zero downside to trying.

All Jazz pilots want to see is there is a long term plan for Jazz, and a long term solution for hiring and retention. However that comes about, I don't care. But right now there seems to be no plan, with zero real plan to recapture the prairie flying, making it challenging to hire and retain pilots, as it appears Jazz is a sinking ship.

So we either simply watch the ship sink, or we play the cards we have. And there is zero downside to attempting a section 35 as a last resort. And we have a very strong case that they breached the veil of separate entities when they become directly involved in contract talks, vs simply setting cost targets.


There’s many who have have applied to Jazz but have not been offered a position. It seems challenging to you guys on the line due to your HR people not sending out offers. There’s no shortage of experienced pilots applying, there’s a shortage of offers coming out from HR.

I know what is in the pile of applications, and there isn't many with quality time, upgradeable. Right now it seems we are avoiding instructors at the moment. We need people that can be upgraded in short order with the ability and experience to do so. If you don't have an offer and have 704 time over 2000 hrs, then there is a reason for that.

[dustyroads]

We played the cards we had, and there was virtually zero downside to trying.

All Jazz pilots want to see is there is a long term plan for Jazz, and a long term solution for hiring and retention. However that comes about, I don't care. But right now there seems to be no plan, with zero real plan to recapture the prairie flying, making it challenging to hire and retain pilots, as it appears Jazz is a sinking ship.

So we either simply watch the ship sink, or we play the cards we have. And there is zero downside to attempting a section 35 as a last resort. And we have a very strong case that they breached the veil of separate entities when they become directly involved in contract talks, vs simply setting cost targets.


There’s many who have have applied to Jazz but have not been offered a position. It seems challenging to you guys on the line due to your HR people not sending out offers. There’s no shortage of experienced pilots applying, there’s a shortage of offers coming out from HR.

I know what is in the pile of applications, and there isn't many with quality time, upgradeable. Right now it seems we are avoiding instructors at the moment. We need people that can be upgraded in short order with the ability and experience to do so. If you don't have an offer and have 704 time over 2000 hrs, then there is a reason for that.

I didn’t apply, I know of others who have though. Knowing their background it’s obvious your HR people aren’t keen on sending out offers to people who have relevant experience to upgrade quickly. There would be no reason not to offer those who I know who have applied a position, great people to fly with and being social with outside of workplace. Would only be bogus reasons made up by HR.

[truedude]

We played the cards we had, and there was virtually zero downside to trying.

All Jazz pilots want to see is there is a long term plan for Jazz, and a long term solution for hiring and retention. However that comes about, I don't care. But right now there seems to be no plan, with zero real plan to recapture the prairie flying, making it challenging to hire and retain pilots, as it appears Jazz is a sinking ship.

So we either simply watch the ship sink, or we play the cards we have. And there is zero downside to attempting a section 35 as a last resort. And we have a very strong case that they breached the veil of separate entities when they become directly involved in contract talks, vs simply setting cost targets.


There’s many who have have applied to Jazz but have not been offered a position. It seems challenging to you guys on the line due to your HR people not sending out offers. There’s no shortage of experienced pilots applying, there’s a shortage of offers coming out from HR.

I know what is in the pile of applications, and there isn't many with quality time, upgradeable. Right now it seems we are avoiding instructors at the moment. We need people that can be upgraded in short order with the ability and experience to do so. If you don't have an offer and have 704 time over 2000 hrs, then there is a reason for that.

I didn’t apply, I know of others who have though. Knowing their background it’s obvious your HR people aren’t keen on sending out offers to people who have relevant experience to upgrade quickly. There would be no reason not to offer those who I know who have applied a position, great people to fly with and being social with outside of workplace. Would only be bogus reasons made up by HR.

Sure... whatever you say

[Mr. North]

We played the cards we had, and there was virtually zero downside to trying.

I think you have everything to lose with Section 35. You certainly lose whatever you stand to gain in the deal presently at hand. The leverage with 35 is in the threat. But in reality it's all a bunch of hot air. By all means, waste half a decade (or longer!) hoping for your slam dunk. Already failed once, and won't solve the problems you face today. Take another swing and prove once and for all that it won't work. Become a pariah within ALPA Canada.

By then how many bargaining cycles will have passed for ACA? 1 for sure, possibly 2, maybe even 3. Those are good times to codify resolutions of mutual benefit. And there are plenty of off-cycle opportunities to find joint solutions as well. AC pilots literally just joined ALPA (along with every other pilot group), why don't we shelve past grievances for a moment and try working together for the first time in decades?

Or carry on, poison the well, and fight everyone on your own.

[truedude]

We played the cards we had, and there was virtually zero downside to trying.

I think you have everything to lose with Section 35. You certainly lose whatever you stand to gain in the deal presently at hand. The leverage with 35 is in the threat. But in reality it's all a bunch of hot air. By all means, waste half a decade (or longer!) hoping for your slam dunk. Already failed once, and won't solve the problems you face today. Take another swing and prove once and for all that it won't work. Become a pariah within ALPA Canada.

By then how many bargaining cycles will have passed for ACA? 1 for sure, possibly 2, maybe even 3. Those are good times to codify resolutions of mutual benefit. And there are plenty of off-cycle opportunities to find joint solutions as well. AC pilots literally just joined ALPA (along with every other pilot group), why don't we shelve past grievances for a moment and try working together for the first time in decades?

Or carry on, poison the well, and fight everyone on your own.

There isn't a deal at hand. Thats the problem. Three of the four parties more or less are in some agreement. There is one party that refuses to do anything... any guess on which one that is.

One list would absolutely solve all of the hiring problems at Jazz. And since ACA won't even participate in good will during the ULP, they won't waste a second of time, or a cent of bargaining capital to help Jazz pilots. We are in this mess as a direct result of AC pilots giving up the exclusivity on their tier 2 flying, for which they did for absolutely nothing in return.

And this version of ACA is simply ACPA 2.0, with all the same mentality. "All for us, nothing for you." So again, we waste nothing pursuing a section 35. Absolutely nothing.

And again, the application this time wont be the same as last time, as we have a mountain of evidence that AC directly interfered in our negotiations. The only people who don't want want to believe we have a strong case, are those that stand to be impacted. But sticking your head on the ground isn't a strategy.

[altiplano]

You're hilarious.

Jazz pilots go after AC pilots' seniority, file law suits against individual Air Canada pilots even, run it through the courts for 15 years, lose, then go start it all over again with another attempt to go after AC pilots' seniority 2 different ways. Then the Jazz pilot gets all butt hurt that AC pilots aren't helping them more.

Even Encore, wholly owned and controlled by Westjet isn't a common employer. Keep telling yourself what you want but you're wasting your resources and opportunities and playing right into the corporation's interests.

[truedude]

You're hilarious.

Jazz pilots go after AC pilots' seniority, file law suits against individual Air Canada pilots even, run it through the courts for 15 years, lose, then go start it all over again with another attempt to go after AC pilots' seniority 2 different ways. Then the Jazz pilot gets all butt hurt that AC pilots aren't helping them more.

Even Encore, wholly owned and controlled by Westjet isn't a common employer. Keep telling yourself what you want but you're wasting your resources and opportunities and playing right into the corporation's interests.

It doesnt need to be owned to be common employer. All you need to show is that one management group directly interfered in the others negotiation. AC handed down the pay table. They crossed the line when they did that, and opened the door for a section 35. That is the issue with Encore and Wesjet, is that they didnt directly enter the contract talks. Same with Rouge and the FAs, the FAs couldn't show AC did anything more than set general cost targets for the company as a hole.

So for the people in the back, when AC handed down a payable, they demonstrated Jazz wasn't the bargaining authority.

[PostmasterGeneral]

You're hilarious.

Jazz pilots go after AC pilots' seniority, file law suits against individual Air Canada pilots even, run it through the courts for 15 years, lose, then go start it all over again with another attempt to go after AC pilots' seniority 2 different ways. Then the Jazz pilot gets all butt hurt that AC pilots aren't helping them more.

Even Encore, wholly owned and controlled by Westjet isn't a common employer. Keep telling yourself what you want but you're wasting your resources and opportunities and playing right into the corporation's interests.

It doesnt need to be owned to be common employer. All you need to show is that one management group directly interfered in the others negotiation. AC handed down the pay table. They crossed the line when they did that, and opened the door for a section 35. That is the issue with Encore and Wesjet, is that they didnt directly enter the contract talks. Same with Rouge and the FAs, the FAs couldn't show AC did anything more than set general cost targets for the company as a hole.

So for the people in the back, when AC handed down a payable, they demonstrated Jazz wasn't the bargaining authority.

And yet, you idiots voted yes to it.

Congratulations

[hithere]

Didn’t you guys vote yes to a contract that avoided “peak leverage”? In the end, no group is better than the other

[cdnavater]

You're hilarious.

Jazz pilots go after AC pilots' seniority, file law suits against individual Air Canada pilots even, run it through the courts for 15 years, lose, then go start it all over again with another attempt to go after AC pilots' seniority 2 different ways. Then the Jazz pilot gets all butt hurt that AC pilots aren't helping them more.

Even Encore, wholly owned and controlled by Westjet isn't a common employer. Keep telling yourself what you want but you're wasting your resources and opportunities and playing right into the corporation's interests.

It doesnt need to be owned to be common employer. All you need to show is that one management group directly interfered in the others negotiation. AC handed down the pay table. They crossed the line when they did that, and opened the door for a section 35. That is the issue with Encore and Wesjet, is that they didnt directly enter the contract talks. Same with Rouge and the FAs, the FAs couldn't show AC did anything more than set general cost targets for the company as a hole.

So for the people in the back, when AC handed down a payable, they demonstrated Jazz wasn't the bargaining authority.

And yet, you idiots voted yes to it.

Congratulations

Since you have no argument, I’ll remind you, you guys also voted for an agreement that other than pay sounds pretty shitty, glass houses dude!

[Dry Guy]

There’s no shortage of experienced pilots applying, there’s a shortage of offers coming out from HR.

I can attest to this. I applied to Jazz and AC and eventually got a job offer from AC. Jazz didn't even offer me an interview. I applied again with a different email account just in case something technical went wrong with my first application. So many pilot's careers end up stalled because of what I believe to be HR incompetence or IT problems. It happens at AC too from what I've read here.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Since you have no argument, I’ll remind you, you guys also voted for an agreement that other than pay sounds pretty shitty, glass houses dude!

I voted no.

[Bede]

That is the issue with Encore and Wesjet, is that they didnt directly enter the contract talks.

It is literally the exact same people at the bargaining table for WJ and WEN negotiations. Goes up the chain to the same people to approve the deal. If that's not a single employer, I'm not sure why you think the AC-Jazz is.

[cdnavater]

Since you have no argument, I’ll remind you, you guys also voted for an agreement that other than pay sounds pretty shitty, glass houses dude!

I voted no.

Ok, so the majority of your colleagues are idiots to you!
Explain why we are idiots, I’m not seeing it!
We had and still have a long term contract with a no strike clause until 2035, somehow during this we managed to negotiate a rumoured 42% increase that AC management outright refused us, we ended up with still a fairly decent increase in pay and more importantly take home pay.
Everyone said we should vote no so they come back with more, here we are two years later, the pilots are still leaving, the company is shrinking and still, they have not come back with more. I actually feel like we would have been idiots to vote it down, I’m making a lot more now and have been for the last two years than I was before the increase.
AC has always been spiteful, had we voted no, there was a better chance they just ordered even more 220s and left us to shrink into the history books of failed airlines, that’s not fear, that’s just reality.

[truedude]

That is the issue with Encore and Wesjet, is that they didnt directly enter the contract talks.

It is literally the exact same people at the bargaining table for WJ and WEN negotiations. Goes up the chain to the same people to approve the deal. If that's not a single employer, I'm not sure why you think the AC-Jazz is.

Look at the criteria. Look at why Rouge FAs failed and what the CIRB said about why it ruled against them. We have a lot of evidence that would make the CIRBs position against the Rouge FAs moot. And it doesn't matter who is at the table, it matters who is giving them the marching orders when they are at the table, and how they paper that trail behind the scenes.

And Encore might have a strong case too depending on the evidence they have. My understanding is they are looking at it too, because what do they have to lose? Absolutely nothing.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Since you have no argument, I’ll remind you, you guys also voted for an agreement that other than pay sounds pretty shitty, glass houses dude!

I voted no.

Ok, so the majority of your colleagues are idiots to you!
Explain why we are idiots, I’m not seeing it!
We had and still have a long term contract with a no strike clause until 2035, somehow during this we managed to negotiate a rumoured 42% increase that AC management outright refused us, we ended up with still a fairly decent increase in pay and more importantly take home pay.
Everyone said we should vote no so they come back with more, here we are two years later, the pilots are still leaving, the company is shrinking and still, they have not come back with more. I actually feel like we would have been idiots to vote it down, I’m making a lot more now and have been for the last two years than I was before the increase.
AC has always been spiteful, had we voted no, there was a better chance they just ordered even more 220s and left us to shrink into the history books of failed airlines, that’s not fear, that’s just reality.

you managed to negociate a ''rumoured'' 42%.

Are you advising Trump on his announcement as a side gig ? nothing is negociated until it is ready for a vote.

[Man_in_the_sky]

Since you have no argument, I’ll remind you, you guys also voted for an agreement that other than pay sounds pretty shitty, glass houses dude!

I voted no.

Ok, so the majority of your colleagues are idiots to you!
Explain why we are idiots, I’m not seeing it!
We had and still have a long term contract with a no strike clause until 2035, somehow during this we managed to negotiate a rumoured 42% increase that AC management outright refused us, we ended up with still a fairly decent increase in pay and more importantly take home pay.
Everyone said we should vote no so they come back with more, here we are two years later, the pilots are still leaving, the company is shrinking and still, they have not come back with more. I actually feel like we would have been idiots to vote it down, I’m making a lot more now and have been for the last two years than I was before the increase.
AC has always been spiteful, had we voted no, there was a better chance they just ordered even more 220s and left us to shrink into the history books of failed airlines, that’s not fear, that’s just reality.

Isn't that EXACTLY a proof that, they were indeed, right ?

[truedude]

I voted no.

Ok, so the majority of your colleagues are idiots to you!
Explain why we are idiots, I’m not seeing it!
We had and still have a long term contract with a no strike clause until 2035, somehow during this we managed to negotiate a rumoured 42% increase that AC management outright refused us, we ended up with still a fairly decent increase in pay and more importantly take home pay.
Everyone said we should vote no so they come back with more, here we are two years later, the pilots are still leaving, the company is shrinking and still, they have not come back with more. I actually feel like we would have been idiots to vote it down, I’m making a lot more now and have been for the last two years than I was before the increase.
AC has always been spiteful, had we voted no, there was a better chance they just ordered even more 220s and left us to shrink into the history books of failed airlines, that’s not fear, that’s just reality.

you managed to negociate a ''rumoured'' 42%.

Are you advising Trump on his announcement as a side gig ? nothing is negociated until it is ready for a vote.

Jazz had signed off. AC said no, tore up the quality of life gains we had also negotiated, and then sent back their own pay table. Once more, making it clear Jazz was never the bargaining agent.

And as to your last comment, no, that doesnt mean they were right. It means they were cheap, and wanted to pretend the problem would just go away. They needed to up the pay by a lot more to make Jazz attractive again, because you have medivac guys making 140, working 4 on 4 off, and they aren't going to come to Jazz to work 18 days a month at the bottom, making half, with it taking several years to get back to where they were.

AC was a day late and a buck short, and then tossed a negotiated agreement, and sent back their own. That one act alone nearly meets all criteria for a common employer.

[GIVCE!]

So …will Friday be the big day? Will the MEC finally come through with their winning announcement? Or will” the can be kicked further down the road? We are waiting with bated breath…

[truedude]

So …will Friday be the big day? Will the MEC finally come through with their winning announcement? Or will” the can be kicked further down the road? We are waiting with bated breath…

All that will happen is the CIRB ruling on if our complaints are valid. If all 3 complaints are ruled valid, then it will move to arguments, with dates already set for the board to make rulings on what should be done to remedy the situation.

[cdnavater]

I voted no.

Ok, so the majority of your colleagues are idiots to you!
Explain why we are idiots, I’m not seeing it!
We had and still have a long term contract with a no strike clause until 2035, somehow during this we managed to negotiate a rumoured 42% increase that AC management outright refused us, we ended up with still a fairly decent increase in pay and more importantly take home pay.
Everyone said we should vote no so they come back with more, here we are two years later, the pilots are still leaving, the company is shrinking and still, they have not come back with more. I actually feel like we would have been idiots to vote it down, I’m making a lot more now and have been for the last two years than I was before the increase.
AC has always been spiteful, had we voted no, there was a better chance they just ordered even more 220s and left us to shrink into the history books of failed airlines, that’s not fear, that’s just reality.

you managed to negociate a ''rumoured'' 42%.

Are you advising Trump on his announcement as a side gig ? nothing is negociated until it is ready for a vote.

I say rumour because I got the information from a very good source who absolutely had it from an inside source, since it was third hand information and I didn’t get it straight from the source, it is unconfirmed information, therefore rumour. What would you have said if I said unconfirmed?
I suspect we would have had to have the same exchange!
As to you other point, what???
How does them NOT coming back with more prove the point that we should have voted no???
It simply proves we were at the top limit of what they were willing to pay, as they said when they ripped up our negotiated improvements and supplied a pay table they were willing to pay!

[Man_in_the_sky]

Was the meeting on the 31st. What's the latest rumour

[Nick678]

Was the meeting on the 31st. What's the latest rumour

Wasn’t the CIRB supposed to release some sort of preliminary ruling by the end of Oct? Then I heard more mediation sessions were scheduled.

These 4 parties will never agree to anything