MPL nonsense

[leafs95]

Hey all,

Was scrolling social media and saw a post from one of these TUI cadet schemes showcasing their recent cadet MPL grads. Been a licenced pilot for many years however I am unsure how I never really stumbled upon this MPL bull**** until now but... wtf? What are they smoking over in EU and Asia?

Off their website (https://careers.tuigroup.com/en/mpl) this is what I gathered -

You mean to tell me they amass a mere 65 (!) hours of flight time in an actual airplane, and the rest is simulator work.. Wikipedia tells me 40 hours in airplanes and "12 take-offs and landings" are the minimum reqs for an MPL. Good on TUI for going beyond the minimums. .

65 hours in planes and you're good to go get a type rating and fly a jet. With an MPL, you can't even rent a plane to take your buddies up, it's restricted to multi-crew, for the specific airline you're working at. That alone tells me everything I need to know. The situations I ran into and experienced time building in actual planes is priceless and critical to the pilot I am today. These, however, are NOT pilots that should be keeping that right seat warm with 100+ pax in the back.

In all honesty.. This sounds horrible. Now yes, full motion simulators are brilliant and are phenomenal to train EXPERIENCED pilots towards type ratings. But not a 65 hour wonderkid who has experienced practically nothing in actual skies. Truly hope that **** stays on that side of the ocean and never makes it anywhere close to this continent.

Anyone who has any sort of experience with MPLs- am I missing something here?

[Me262]

You're right. Everyone should have the minimum 250hrs in a C150 to fly for the airlines like here in Canada.

[leafs95]

You're right. Everyone should have the minimum 250hrs in a C150 to fly for the airlines like here in Canada.

Instead of being sarcastic which solves nothing, maybe try a teeny tiny bit harder and explain why you see it differently?

[digits_]

It's been going on for over 10 years. I am sure some of these MPL holders are captains by now. Statistically it doesn't seem to have affected safety.

I can only comment on the European approach. A big difference is that these pilots don't go flying NDB approaches in Shamattawa at night in an old metro or king air in a snow storm with next to zero support. They train and operate in a very strict highly regulated environment. Most, if not all, of these MPL schemes have a thorough selection often with a very low success rate. The selection would be more like the Canadian military pilot route than the civilian route: very high standards and only the lucky few get trained. Then again, less scrupulous airlines can easily turn it into a pay2fly scheme with inevitably lower standards.

The MPL used to be horrible for the student as well. It used to be worthless if you got fired or your company went bust in the first xxx hours after you got your license. It's my understanding some progress has been made in that regard.

I do find the whole thing bizarre though. Europe was not suffering from a pilot shortage when the MPL came about. Plenty of ab initio and lower experienced pilots that would have killed for an airline job.

The arrogance of airlines 'wanting to train pilots their way' is hard to understand. If you're that unique you need to specially train pilots to operate in your environment, you probably shouldn't be operating at all.

Some undoubtedly see it as the most effective bond: you leave and you basically lose your license. The wet dream of some Canadian companies as well I'm sure!

Do note that the European environment is significantly more organized than Canada. You're almost always being watched by multiple parties, likely getting fined before you can even do anything unsafe. Approach ban controlled by controllers instead of pilots is one such example. The system can still break down of course, and accidents do happen, but not more than here.

The MPL is one of the reasons it irks me when Super Pilots go about bragging how they are flying singe pilot because their low time FO is completely useless. It's a mindset like that that will eventually open the door for MPLs in Canada as well. Even though we don't need it. But neither did Europe.

[Eric Janson]

The MPL is also a cost saving for Airlines.

It also ties the individual to a company because the MPL is Airline specific - until the individual gets an ATPL.

I have flown with 250hour cadet Pilots at an Asian Flag Carrier - I never had to take over. Some of them developed into exceptional Pilots.

Obviously you cannot put these people on small aircraft - that's not what they've been trained to operate.

I have also seen the enormous differences between company trained people and experienced people hired from outside - except in a few rare cases the company people were far better.

DEI hiring is a much bigger threat than the MPL - the first fatal accidents have already happened. Jmho.

Do note that the European environment is significantly more organized than Canada. You're almost always being watched by multiple parties, likely getting fined before you can even do anything unsafe. Approach ban controlled by controllers instead of pilots is one such example. The system can still break down of course, and accidents do happen, but not more than here.

I have not experienced either situation in over 30 years of flying in European Airspace.

Approach Ban is part of OM-A and can vary between operators - ATC have no access to this info and they are not the Aviation Police.

[Tbayer2021]

One of these days Canadian pilots will realize you don't have to toss bags in Thompson for 2 years for the privilege of flying a clapped out navajo to become a competent pilot.

[goingnowherefast]

When chief pilots at big airlines come up with hairbrained solutions to problems that don't exist, it's usually the crusty old northern pilots that stand up and ask the hard questions.

Instructors and MPL pilots are created by the airline system. They have no outside experience and aren't as able to questioning authority.

Northern pilots have argued with the ops manager about flying overweight or skimping on gas. We've had a grumpy manager come tell us why we shouldn't have diverted. Northern pilots had to know their airplanes very well, because there was no support. Something breaks when 500 miles from a hotel, maintenance base or communication link, one has to know their systems to make an unsupported decision.

So when a 737 chief pilot comes up with some ridiculous SOP amendment, it's the pilot who's already argued with a chief pilot who asks the questions and points out the issues.

God help the MPL pilot who's license is attached to being in good favour with management.

[Tbayer2021]

When chief pilots at big airlines come up with hairbrained solutions to problems that don't exist, it's usually the crusty old northern pilots that stand up and ask the hard questions.

Instructors and MPL pilots are created by the airline system. They have no outside experience and aren't as able to questioning authority.

Northern pilots have argued with the ops manager about flying overweight or skimping on gas. We've had a grumpy manager come tell us why we shouldn't have diverted. Northern pilots had to know their airplanes very well, because there was no support. Something breaks when 500 miles from a hotel, maintenance base or communication link, one has to know their systems to make an unsupported decision.

So when a 737 chief pilot comes up with some ridiculous SOP amendment, it's the pilot who's already argued with a chief pilot who asks the questions and points out the issues.

God help the MPL pilot who's license is attached to being in good favour with management.

Now this, this is hilarious. The one place where pilots consistently fly overweight, in marginal weather with aircraft in mechanical conditions that leave a lot to be desired - to say nothing about its legal status. Is the North. You know where all those things almost just about never happen? At major 705s.

A little too heavy for take off on that day's conditions? CLC is telling you how many bags they're offloading to make the weight requirement. Taking extra gas? I've never had anyone question me. Something broken? Qualified maintenance personnel either fixes it or MELs it if appropriate. No one is making any unsupported decisions or MacGyvering a solution that may or may not work but is more than likely illegal.

I guess these old crusty Northern pilots who stand up and ask the hard questions have never bothered to ask why accidents and incidents up there are so much more common.

[digits_]

When chief pilots at big airlines come up with hairbrained solutions to problems that don't exist, it's usually the crusty old northern pilots that stand up and ask the hard questions.

Instructors and MPL pilots are created by the airline system. They have no outside experience and aren't as able to questioning authority.

Northern pilots have argued with the ops manager about flying overweight or skimping on gas. We've had a grumpy manager come tell us why we shouldn't have diverted. Northern pilots had to know their airplanes very well, because there was no support. Something breaks when 500 miles from a hotel, maintenance base or communication link, one has to know their systems to make an unsupported decision.

So when a 737 chief pilot comes up with some ridiculous SOP amendment, it's the pilot who's already argued with a chief pilot who asks the questions and points out the issues.

God help the MPL pilot who's license is attached to being in good favour with management.

I think you're conflating cause and effect. People that spend their whole career at 705 operators and eventually end up in management tend not to develop the bad habits such as flying overweight in the first place...

The majority of them are so far removed from the profits of the company that there's no incentive for them to bend or break the rules.

If the chief pilot is the brother of the owner, that situation changes drastically.

[goingnowherefast]

When chief pilots at big airlines come up with hairbrained solutions to problems that don't exist, it's usually the crusty old northern pilots that stand up and ask the hard questions.

Instructors and MPL pilots are created by the airline system. They have no outside experience and aren't as able to questioning authority.

Northern pilots have argued with the ops manager about flying overweight or skimping on gas. We've had a grumpy manager come tell us why we shouldn't have diverted. Northern pilots had to know their airplanes very well, because there was no support. Something breaks when 500 miles from a hotel, maintenance base or communication link, one has to know their systems to make an unsupported decision.

So when a 737 chief pilot comes up with some ridiculous SOP amendment, it's the pilot who's already argued with a chief pilot who asks the questions and points out the issues.

God help the MPL pilot who's license is attached to being in good favour with management.

Now this, this is hilarious. The one place where pilots consistently fly overweight, in marginal weather with aircraft in mechanical conditions that leave a lot to be desired - to say nothing about its legal status. Is the North. You know where all those things almost just about never happen? At major 705s.

A little too heavy for take off on that day's conditions? CLC is telling you how many bags they're offloading to make the weight requirement. Taking extra gas? I've never had anyone question me. Something broken? Qualified maintenance personnel either fixes it or MELs it if appropriate. No one is making any unsupported decisions or MacGyvering a solution that may or may not work but is more than likely illegal.

I guess these old crusty Northern pilots who stand up and ask the hard questions have never bothered to ask why accidents and incidents up there are so much more common.

That's basically what I mean. Northern pilots have learned a lot of lessons the hard way. They've had to fight management through their early careers. Their internal risk management assessments are based on first or second hand experience, not a textbook.

Once a pilot has seen one or two friends/coworkers die, they're much more willing to tell the chief pilot to go @#$! themselves. This includes quitting the north to go work for a major 705, hoping to leave most of it behind.

Then when a chief pilot decides to make some out-of-touch amendments to a procedure, guess who is used to fighting with management? Hint, its not the MPL pilot.

[digits_]

When chief pilots at big airlines come up with hairbrained solutions to problems that don't exist, it's usually the crusty old northern pilots that stand up and ask the hard questions.

Instructors and MPL pilots are created by the airline system. They have no outside experience and aren't as able to questioning authority.

Northern pilots have argued with the ops manager about flying overweight or skimping on gas. We've had a grumpy manager come tell us why we shouldn't have diverted. Northern pilots had to know their airplanes very well, because there was no support. Something breaks when 500 miles from a hotel, maintenance base or communication link, one has to know their systems to make an unsupported decision.

So when a 737 chief pilot comes up with some ridiculous SOP amendment, it's the pilot who's already argued with a chief pilot who asks the questions and points out the issues.

God help the MPL pilot who's license is attached to being in good favour with management.

Now this, this is hilarious. The one place where pilots consistently fly overweight, in marginal weather with aircraft in mechanical conditions that leave a lot to be desired - to say nothing about its legal status. Is the North. You know where all those things almost just about never happen? At major 705s.

A little too heavy for take off on that day's conditions? CLC is telling you how many bags they're offloading to make the weight requirement. Taking extra gas? I've never had anyone question me. Something broken? Qualified maintenance personnel either fixes it or MELs it if appropriate. No one is making any unsupported decisions or MacGyvering a solution that may or may not work but is more than likely illegal.

I guess these old crusty Northern pilots who stand up and ask the hard questions have never bothered to ask why accidents and incidents up there are so much more common.

That's basically what I mean. Northern pilots have learned a lot of lessons the hard way. They've had to fight management through their early careers. Their internal risk management assessments are based on first or second hand experience, not a textbook.

Once a pilot has seen one or two friends/coworkers die, they're much more willing to tell the chief pilot to go @#$! themselves. This includes quitting the north to go work for a major 705, hoping to leave most of it behind.

Then when a chief pilot decides to make some out-of-touch amendments to a procedure, guess who is used to fighting with management? Hint, its not the MPL pilot.

You're missing the point. A typical MPL pilot does not work at places where this is an issue. A typical MPL pilot will also not end up working at a 703 operator. And of course there might be times when pressure is encountered, just like any low time pilot can. There's also the experienced captain to put a stop to that, at which time the MPL pilot can observe and learn.

Here's another thing to consider: after a few months of employment, that MPL pilot will hold 250 hours, of which 200-ish will be on type.
A Canadian 250 hour CPL pilot will never have touched anything bigger than a seminole. Which one would make a better 705 FO?

The MPL pilots do evolve quickly into 700/1500 hour pilots, with lots of time on type. The window of them being inexperienced and possibly less experienced than a 'classic' CPL pilot is quite short. Less than a year of employment, possibly even just a few months.

The inconvenient truth is that flying an airliner doesn't seem to require all that much experience, if quality training is provided to a quality student.

[Tbayer2021]

Now this, this is hilarious. The one place where pilots consistently fly overweight, in marginal weather with aircraft in mechanical conditions that leave a lot to be desired - to say nothing about its legal status. Is the North. You know where all those things almost just about never happen? At major 705s.

A little too heavy for take off on that day's conditions? CLC is telling you how many bags they're offloading to make the weight requirement. Taking extra gas? I've never had anyone question me. Something broken? Qualified maintenance personnel either fixes it or MELs it if appropriate. No one is making any unsupported decisions or MacGyvering a solution that may or may not work but is more than likely illegal.

I guess these old crusty Northern pilots who stand up and ask the hard questions have never bothered to ask why accidents and incidents up there are so much more common.

That's basically what I mean. Northern pilots have learned a lot of lessons the hard way. They've had to fight management through their early careers. Their internal risk management assessments are based on first or second hand experience, not a textbook.

Once a pilot has seen one or two friends/coworkers die, they're much more willing to tell the chief pilot to go @#$! themselves. This includes quitting the north to go work for a major 705, hoping to leave most of it behind.

Then when a chief pilot decides to make some out-of-touch amendments to a procedure, guess who is used to fighting with management? Hint, its not the MPL pilot.

The inconvenient truth is that flying an airliner doesn't seem to require all that much experience, if quality training is provided to a quality student.

BINGO! This is the part that really bothers a good number of pilots. For some reason, people seem to think the only way to be a competent pilot is to fly in northern 703s. Just because that was the standard path for many years, it doesn't mean its the only one. I wonder how Europe with all their cadet programs and MPLs and whatever other program they have seem to consistently have equal to or better accident rates than Canada/North America.

[Bede]

What's often missing in this conversation is that many, if not most, of us would not be flying the aircraft we do under a European style MPL system. The pilots that get selected are often the top graduates in physics or engineering. The rest of us got somewhere by working for it.

[twa22]

What's often missing in this conversation is that many, if not most, of us would not be flying the aircraft we do under a European style MPL system. The pilots that get selected are often the top graduates in physics or engineering. The rest of us got somewhere by working for it.

Where are you getting this info from? That's simply not true. Cadets and MPL pilots in Europe and other parts of the world are not physics or engineer degree pilots... yes some of them may have a degree, but that is the exception, not the rule, and they are certainly not top graduates with a 4.0 GPA in physics or engineering.

[digits_]

What's often missing in this conversation is that many, if not most, of us would not be flying the aircraft we do under a European style MPL system. The pilots that get selected are often the top graduates in physics or engineering. The rest of us got somewhere by working for it.

Where are you getting this info from? That's simply not true. Cadets and MPL pilots in Europe and other parts of the world are not physics or engineer degree pilots... yes some of them may have a degree, but that is the exception, not the rule, and they are certainly not top graduates with a 4.0 GPA in physics or engineering.

Perhaps not formally, but competition to get into the cadet programs linked to an airline is pretty fierce. I think Canada has been experimenting with a few cadet programs as well, but the situation is still significantly different here than in Europe.

Generally, in Canada anyone who wants to can become a pilot. You 'only' have to pass the legally required tests, there are no/very few pre training assessment and selections. You can then go find a 703 job, again with very little, if any, extra testing. When you get to the airline level, there are a few more pre employment tests and checks, but they are all fairly flying related.

In Europe, you can go the airline cadet route if you pass the strict selection processes, and often pay a small fortune for the privilege of attending, but you'll jump into an airliner right away. Or you go the other route by selecting a random flying school in which case the odds of finding a job are drastically lower than in North America.

If you are a low time pilot in Europe who's got a flying job, you'll likely be financially better of than your Canadian low time counterparts.
But the chances of finding that first job in Europe are significantly lower than in Canada.

[twa22]

What's often missing in this conversation is that many, if not most, of us would not be flying the aircraft we do under a European style MPL system. The pilots that get selected are often the top graduates in physics or engineering. The rest of us got somewhere by working for it.

Where are you getting this info from? That's simply not true. Cadets and MPL pilots in Europe and other parts of the world are not physics or engineer degree pilots... yes some of them may have a degree, but that is the exception, not the rule, and they are certainly not top graduates with a 4.0 GPA in physics or engineering.

Perhaps not formally, but competition to get into the cadet programs linked to an airline is pretty fierce. I think Canada has been experimenting with a few cadet programs as well, but the situation is still significantly different here than in Europe.

Generally, in Canada anyone who wants to can become a pilot. You 'only' have to pass the legally required tests, there are no/very few pre training assessment and selections. You can then go find a 703 job, again with very little, if any, extra testing. When you get to the airline level, there are a few more pre employment tests and checks, but they are all fairly flying related.

In Europe, you can go the airline cadet route if you pass the strict selection processes, and often pay a small fortune for the privilege of attending, but you'll jump into an airliner right away. Or you go the other route by selecting a random flying school in which case the odds of finding a job are drastically lower than in North America.

If you are a low time pilot in Europe who's got a flying job, you'll likely be financially better of than your Canadian low time counterparts.
But the chances of finding that first job in Europe are significantly lower than in Canada.

Sure, the road to getting to an airline is different and likely more challenging, but my point was, most who do it aren't rocket scientists with top level engineering or physics degrees... it's no different then Canada nowadays where the younger generation of pilots have some form of bachelor degree or a college diploma

[Me262]

Where are you getting this info from? That's simply not true. Cadets and MPL pilots in Europe and other parts of the world are not physics or engineer degree pilots... yes some of them may have a degree, but that is the exception, not the rule, and they are certainly not top graduates with a 4.0 GPA in physics or engineering.

Perhaps not formally, but competition to get into the cadet programs linked to an airline is pretty fierce. I think Canada has been experimenting with a few cadet programs as well, but the situation is still significantly different here than in Europe.

Generally, in Canada anyone who wants to can become a pilot. You 'only' have to pass the legally required tests, there are no/very few pre training assessment and selections. You can then go find a 703 job, again with very little, if any, extra testing. When you get to the airline level, there are a few more pre employment tests and checks, but they are all fairly flying related.

In Europe, you can go the airline cadet route if you pass the strict selection processes, and often pay a small fortune for the privilege of attending, but you'll jump into an airliner right away. Or you go the other route by selecting a random flying school in which case the odds of finding a job are drastically lower than in North America.

If you are a low time pilot in Europe who's got a flying job, you'll likely be financially better of than your Canadian low time counterparts.
But the chances of finding that first job in Europe are significantly lower than in Canada.

Sure, the road to getting to an airline is different and likely more challenging, but my point was, most who do it aren't rocket scientists with top level engineering or physics degrees... it's no different then Canada nowadays where the younger generation of pilots have some form of bachelor degree or a college diploma

It's basically what cygnet is

[Bede]

What's often missing in this conversation is that many, if not most, of us would not be flying the aircraft we do under a European style MPL system. The pilots that get selected are often the top graduates in physics or engineering. The rest of us got somewhere by working for it.

Where are you getting this info from? That's simply not true. Cadets and MPL pilots in Europe and other parts of the world are not physics or engineer degree pilots... yes some of them may have a degree, but that is the exception, not the rule, and they are certainly not top graduates with a 4.0 GPA in physics or engineering.

My dad. Granted, it's old info. He applied as a cadet at SwissAir. They told him that he didn't have enough education to be a pilot so he went out and got an education. Then he applied again and he was told that he was too old. He was 26.

[twa22]

What's often missing in this conversation is that many, if not most, of us would not be flying the aircraft we do under a European style MPL system. The pilots that get selected are often the top graduates in physics or engineering. The rest of us got somewhere by working for it.

Where are you getting this info from? That's simply not true. Cadets and MPL pilots in Europe and other parts of the world are not physics or engineer degree pilots... yes some of them may have a degree, but that is the exception, not the rule, and they are certainly not top graduates with a 4.0 GPA in physics or engineering.

My dad. Granted, it's old info. He applied as a cadet at SwissAir. They told him that he didn't have enough education to be a pilot so he went out and got an education. Then he applied again and he was told that he was too old. He was 26.

That was a long time ago... things have drastically changed since then, those days are far behind now and getting into a MPL or cadet program has gotten significantly easier, and I know this, because I know people who were in these programs in the last 10 years. Much like how Canadian aviation has changed and has gotten easier to start out, the same applies to the rest of the world

Go have a look at various MPL/cadet programs available in Europe at different airlines. Some only require the bare minimum of high school

[digits_]

Go have a look at various MPL/cadet programs available in Europe at different airlines. Some only require the bare minimum of high school

Are those pograms leading to a guaranteed job, or are they an extra revenue source for said airlines?

[Me262]

Go have a look at various MPL/cadet programs available in Europe at different airlines. Some only require the bare minimum of high school

Are those pograms leading to a guaranteed job, or are they an extra revenue source for said airlines?

Yes it does, with x amount of commitment (bond) if successful. Except unlike Canada, you get to fly a 320 or 737 for a proper airine, and get to upgrade to left seat once you unfreeze your ATPL (no need to bomb in a C150 doing circuits to build your PIC to be "worthy")

[TeePeeCreeper]

Go have a look at various MPL/cadet programs available in Europe at different airlines. Some only require the bare minimum of high school

Are those pograms leading to a guaranteed job, or are they an extra revenue source for said airlines?

Yes it does, with x amount of commitment (bond) if successful. Except unlike Canada, you get to fly a 320 or 737 for a proper airine, and get to upgrade to left seat once you unfreeze your ATPL (no need to bomb in a C150 doing circuits to build your PIC to be "worthy")

Entitled much?

How’s that CPL training of yours going with that attitude? lol

[Me262]

Are those pograms leading to a guaranteed job, or are they an extra revenue source for said airlines?

Yes it does, with x amount of commitment (bond) if successful. Except unlike Canada, you get to fly a 320 or 737 for a proper airine, and get to upgrade to left seat once you unfreeze your ATPL (no need to bomb in a C150 doing circuits to build your PIC to be "worthy")

Entitled much?

How’s that CPL training of yours going with that attitude? lol

How's that alimony going with your trolling?

[TeePeeCreeper]

Yes it does, with x amount of commitment (bond) if successful. Except unlike Canada, you get to fly a 320 or 737 for a proper airine, and get to upgrade to left seat once you unfreeze your ATPL (no need to bomb in a C150 doing circuits to build your PIC to be "worthy")

Entitled much?

How’s that CPL training of yours going with that attitude? lol

How's that alimony going with your trolling?

Thank you for confirming that the low of the low requires personal attacks gained from having garnered information that I may have one shared with a fellow brethren of ours.

I sincerely hope your career will be filled with gummy bears and Haribou’s.

Pro tip,

You might want to knock yourself down a notch until you succeed in obtaining your CPL. I truly wish you the best in achieving that.

TPC