Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[truedude]

A class action DFR lawsuit. That's totally how the legal system works.

It would be a class action for failure to represent appropriately. And it wouldn't be the first filed in Canada.

[Man_in_the_sky]

I'm just glad this whole fiasco is finally over with and the issue can be put to rest, once and for all. Time to focus on the next round of negotiations, and improving the profession as a whole for all pilots in Canada no matter which carrier they work for.

Are you happy that 285 of your ex-colleague got ''f'ed'' by a breach of contract and will get nothing when it is clear as day that we/they deserved compensation, either monetarely or seniority. Is that what makes you happy ?

[Bede]

A class action DFR lawsuit. That's totally how the legal system works.

It would be a class action for failure to represent appropriately. And it wouldn't be the first filed in Canada.

Do you have a link to the decision?

[truedude]

A class action DFR lawsuit. That's totally how the legal system works.

It would be a class action for failure to represent appropriately. And it wouldn't be the first filed in Canada.

Do you have a link to the decision?

Oh, and there is no agreement with respect to not filing a s.35. What you are referring to is if a merger were to take place, ALPA's general merger guidance wouldn't be needed to be adhered to. But there is absolutely no agreement between ALPA and any party the precludes the filing of a s35.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I'm just glad this whole fiasco is finally over with and the issue can be put to rest, once and for all. Time to focus on the next round of negotiations, and improving the profession as a whole for all pilots in Canada no matter which carrier they work for.

Are you happy that 285 of your ex-colleague got ''f'ed'' by a breach of contract and will get nothing when it is clear as day that we/they deserved compensation, either monetarely or seniority. Is that what makes you happy ?

I dont have "feelings" about this whole fiasco one way or another. Use logic and reason, not emotion.

Whether it's fair or not, it is what it is. Sometimes the big corporations win. Often they win, actually. That's just the way it is. Time to move on.

[Nick678]

I'm just glad this whole fiasco is finally over with and the issue can be put to rest, once and for all. Time to focus on the next round of negotiations, and improving the profession as a whole for all pilots in Canada no matter which carrier they work for.

Are you happy that 285 of your ex-colleague got ''f'ed'' by a breach of contract and will get nothing when it is clear as day that we/they deserved compensation, either monetarely or seniority. Is that what makes you happy ?

I dont have "feelings" about this whole fiasco one way or another. Use logic and reason, not emotion.

Whether it's fair or not, it is what it is. Sometimes the big corporations win. Often they win, actually. That's just the way it is. Time to move on.

AC pilots get pissed when company ignores part of the new contract or delays implementation but turns a blind eye when it happens to other pilot groups "sucks to suck"

[Man_in_the_sky]

Are you happy that 285 of your ex-colleague got ''f'ed'' by a breach of contract and will get nothing when it is clear as day that we/they deserved compensation, either monetarely or seniority. Is that what makes you happy ?

I dont have "feelings" about this whole fiasco one way or another. Use logic and reason, not emotion.

Whether it's fair or not, it is what it is. Sometimes the big corporations win. Often they win, actually. That's just the way it is. Time to move on.

AC pilots get pissed when company ignores part of the new contract or delays implementation but turns a blind eye when it happens to other pilot groups "sucks to suck"

not even sure who you are attacking here.

Truth is, there was clear harm, clear fault and no penality. AC will do it again and Jazz by letting this go, proove they do not care about their members.

[Cypresshill]

“ YUL Pilots,

After reviewing the CIRB’s preliminary ruling, the Montreal council’s view is straightforward: we have effectively lost the ULP. With Air Canada released from the file, we are not optimistic that the CIRB will issue a “make whole” remedy. We also believe that the Executive was less focused on pursuing a negotiated settlement and more focused on a decision imposed by the CIRB.

We do not believe that Air Canada or ACA were intimidated by the ULP filing. Further, we are concerned that the Executive is now considering filing a Section 35 Single Employer at the CIRB.

The CIRB has indicated that our issues would be more appropriately dealt with through the grievance/arbitration process.

We believe that careful consideration should be taken before making that decision. A Section 35 filing will be a very expensive and protracted process (3 to 5 years), which will likely produce insignificant results. We believe that we should not consider filing a Section 35 until the CIRB renders its final ruling and we have received all proposals that were offered by the ACA during the process to try and resolve the issues.

You should be reminded that the Air Canada Regional Pilots—who are now the Jazz pilots—already filed a single employer against Air Canada and ACPA in 1997 and were unsuccessful in the decision issued by Arbitrator Claude Guilbault in 1998. They immediately filed an appeal and were again unsuccessful in the decision issued by Arbitrator Michelle Pineau in 1999.

The Montreal Council believes that our pilots are on the right track in directing us to recall the current MEC Executive, get a new team in place, and refocus on resolving the outstanding issues.”


CB disciples on here are all like "but wait....but....but...but". Sit the F down, man. You were told and warned multiple times this was heading to failure. This grifter MEC needs to be thrown out of the house. This bunch of self-aggrandized buffoons, which gaslights its pilots over "approved" expenses versus justified ones, as if that's the only reason pilots can't stand them anymore, still thinks it should be in the driver's seat. You can't make this stuff up.

Look out for new committee appointments soon as any potential defector of CB will promptly be offered other positions. Right KB? Eh KE?

Is there a bright side to all this? Yes. For some. The MEC has 2 million dollars worth of new office and a crappy vehicle. Apparently the bar is well stocked with the finest therapy money can buy.

As for you line pilots, don't forget to update your standing bid to reflect your desire for that heavy jet captain spot made available by the Hawaiian Cargo contract. Kinda like choosing "X" for gender on that ALPA Canada aeromedical survey.

Fire them.

[hithere]

Cypresshill,
No need to “fire”(ie recall) anyone since all the Executive position terms end early in the new year. February I think. If you have enough support you are welcome to run for one of these positions yourself.

[truedude]

“ YUL Pilots,

After reviewing the CIRB’s preliminary ruling, the Montreal council’s view is straightforward: we have effectively lost the ULP. With Air Canada released from the file, we are not optimistic that the CIRB will issue a “make whole” remedy. We also believe that the Executive was less focused on pursuing a negotiated settlement and more focused on a decision imposed by the CIRB.

We do not believe that Air Canada or ACA were intimidated by the ULP filing. Further, we are concerned that the Executive is now considering filing a Section 35 Single Employer at the CIRB.

The CIRB has indicated that our issues would be more appropriately dealt with through the grievance/arbitration process.

We believe that careful consideration should be taken before making that decision. A Section 35 filing will be a very expensive and protracted process (3 to 5 years), which will likely produce insignificant results. We believe that we should not consider filing a Section 35 until the CIRB renders its final ruling and we have received all proposals that were offered by the ACA during the process to try and resolve the issues.

You should be reminded that the Air Canada Regional Pilots—who are now the Jazz pilots—already filed a single employer against Air Canada and ACPA in 1997 and were unsuccessful in the decision issued by Arbitrator Claude Guilbault in 1998. They immediately filed an appeal and were again unsuccessful in the decision issued by Arbitrator Michelle Pineau in 1999.

The Montreal Council believes that our pilots are on the right track in directing us to recall the current MEC Executive, get a new team in place, and refocus on resolving the outstanding issues.”


CB disciples on here are all like "but wait....but....but...but". Sit the F down, man. You were told and warned multiple times this was heading to failure. This grifter MEC needs to be thrown out of the house. This bunch of self-aggrandized buffoons, which gaslights its pilots over "approved" expenses versus justified ones, as if that's the only reason pilots can't stand them anymore, still thinks it should be in the driver's seat. You can't make this stuff up.

Look out for new committee appointments soon as any potential defector of CB will promptly be offered other positions. Right KB? Eh KE?

Is there a bright side to all this? Yes. For some. The MEC has 2 million dollars worth of new office and a crappy vehicle. Apparently the bar is well stocked with the finest therapy money can buy.

As for you line pilots, don't forget to update your standing bid to reflect your desire for that heavy jet captain spot made available by the Hawaiian Cargo contract. Kinda like choosing "X" for gender on that ALPA Canada aeromedical survey.

Fire them.

This is a really bad take. First, all expenses were approved and known about, so the YUL Capt rep can stop pretending like they didn't know about them when they approved them.

Second, the ULP did get AC and ACA to the table. Fine, nothing came of it, but no harm in talking and searching for common ground.

And third, the YUL Capt rep will retire before the end of the CPA, so they have nothing to lose by the current issues at Jazz. But this crusade against the executive is a clear example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. The reality remains, no matter who is in charge, that Jazz is a shrinking entity, with a management team that doesn't appear to have any desire to do anything but play caretaker. They did nothing to try and enforce the exclusivity clause of the CPA. They don't seem to have any plan to try and attract and hire pilots. And they seem content to allow Jazz to simply shrink. Without change, I don't see at the moment how we even are a company past 2035. So for me, I see this as a fight for survival. And when the CIRB goes out of their way to mention a "Common Employer" route is more appropriate to deal with these issues, multiple times in their decision, all parties should sit up and take note. There was absolutely no need for the CIRB to include those statements.

What you are suggesting is essentially a surrender by not pursuing at S.35 route, and doing so as quickly as we can.

If someone wants to be voted to the executive, let them run when the terms are up. I am all for change, but not in this fashion, or by people who have turned it into a personal vendetta.

I do think, however, it is time we have people in all of our elected positions that will likely be with this company past 2035, as they have a vested long term interest in seeing Jazz a prosperous place to work.

[Mr. North]

Just because the CIRB mentions "common employer" multiple times in no way speaks to the validity of that claim. All they said was these arguments don't belong in a ULP, if you want it to be considered there's another section of the code that deals with it. It is procedural housekeeping, not a hint in any way that Section 35 if winnable.

For someone so concerned about the long-term viability of Jazz, Section 35 would be your slowest, most expensive, and worst option. We're talking:
- 3-5 years minimum
- All dialogue between parties immediately ends and positions entrenched
- Millions in legal fees
- No operational changes while the case drags on
- Extremely high burden of proof
- No guaranteed remedy, even if successful

Sounds like a multi-year distraction that really only benefits the company (AC). I still maintain that a collaborative approach is your/our best option with any real chance of success.

[truedude]

Just because the CIRB mentions "common employer" multiple times in no way speaks to the validity of that claim. All they said was these arguments don't belong in a ULP, if you want it to be considered there's another section of the code that deals with it. It is procedural housekeeping, not a hint in any way that Section 35 if winnable.

For someone so concerned about the long-term viability of Jazz, Section 35 would be your slowest, most expensive, and worst option. We're talking:
- 3-5 years minimum
- All dialogue between parties immediately ends and positions entrenched
- Millions in legal fees
- No operational changes while the case drags on
- Extremely high burden of proof
- No guaranteed remedy, even if successful

Sounds like a multi-year distraction that really only benefits the company (AC). I still maintain that a collaborative approach is your/our best option with any real chance of success.

When in the history of these organizations, has collaboration ever resulted in a net benefit for Jazz pilots?

We are dealing with a pilot group that gave away our biggest bargaining advantage, the exclusivity of tier 2 flying, for absolutely nothing in return, creating the last decade of essentially negative bargaining for regional pilots.

We have a corporation that happily disregarded a signed agreement with Jazz pilots, and violated an exclusivity clause it had signed with Jazz.

And we have a management group at Jazz that allowed these things to happen, with no apparent push back or attempt to have Air Canada uphold its obligations, and has shown no plan or even real desire to fix the issues,or recapture flying.

Trying to collaborate given the above is like being in an abusive relationship and being told, "this time will be different." It won't be. And it is absolutely the worst option. It would be 9 years of "talks" with zero result, while Jazz shrinks to oblivion.

So no, a Section 35 is the only option left to take. And the dialogue only ends if the parties choose to end the dialogue. There is absolutely no reason talks can't continue while the Section 35 moves forward. No reason operational changes can't be made while the case drags on. Remember, a Section 35 is filed against a corporation, not any individual employee group.

And I don't know how much time you have spent in and around lawyers, or people in the legal profession. But they don't wast time, or energy in writing things that did not need to be written. And mentioning a Common Employer is the avenue to address these issues, multiple times is not something that was likely don't for no reason. They could have simply said that under the sections the ULP was filed, there is no avenue for remedy.

[Bede]

And I don't know how much time you have spent in and around lawyers, or people in the legal profession. But they don't wast time, or energy in writing things that did not need to be written.

Seriously, have you spent any time around lawyers? That's literally all they do.
"We need to schedule a meeting to schedule the conference call."
"Sorry mister arbitrator, our witness has a sore bum. We need to reschedule. Oh, you're not available for 6 months. I guess we'll reconvene then."

Meanwhile justice is delayed and your costs rise.

[hithere]

And I don't know how much time you have spent in and around lawyers, or people in the legal profession. But they don't wast time, or energy in writing things that did not need to be written.

Seriously, have you spent any time around lawyers? That's literally all they do.
"We need to schedule a meeting to schedule the conference call."
"Sorry mister arbitrator, our witness has a sore bum. We need to reschedule. Oh, you're not available for 6 months. I guess we'll reconvene then."

Meanwhile justice is delayed and your costs rise.

Regardless of the debatable lawyer piece, the rest of truedude’s statement is factual. The past two years were spent with the JAZ MEC doing all the leg work to impress upon all the other three parties the dire state of the airline’s operation and proposing solutions. . The ULP gave the CIRB the power to hold AC management at the table to try to help fix this mess that they created, and then released them after two years of mediated talks going nowhere.
There is nothing compelling AC management to engage any further at the moment

[Mr. North]

When in the history of these organizations, has collaboration ever resulted in a net benefit for Jazz pilots?

We are dealing with a pilot group that gave away our biggest bargaining advantage, the exclusivity of tier 2 flying, for absolutely nothing in return, creating the last decade of essentially negative bargaining for regional pilots.

You're living in the past. The people responsible for 2 decades of concessions are gone. ACPA is gone. We're all on one team now and ACA has doubled in size, with nearly half being hired in the last 5 years. It's an entirely new landscape, with a new cast of characters (on our side at least), and treating this like nothing has changed only limits what’s possible going forward.

Trying to collaborate given the above is ... absolutely the worst option.

I disagree, has anything good ever come out of two pilots groups waring with each other? No. It may be hard for you to see but there are plenty of short and near term opportunities to sort this out provided we're all working in tandem. For AC pilots, it's in our professional interest to have both a stable regional and a mature, predictable pilot pipeline. Collaboration isn’t a favor to regional pilots, it’s a strategic necessity for us at mainline.

So no, a Section 35 is the only option left to take. And the dialogue only ends if the parties choose to end the dialogue. There is absolutely no reason talks can't continue while the Section 35 moves forward. No reason operational changes can't be made while the case drags on. Remember, a Section 35 is filed against a corporation, not any individual employee group.

If you think ACA would entertain meaningful dialogue while a Section 35 is underway, you don’t have a realistic grasp of the dynamics in play. The fact that it’s “filed against the company” doesn’t make it any less of an existential threat to our seniority structure, and it will be treated accordingly. If you’re looking to continue the sad old narrative of Air Canada pilots selling out the regionals, this is exactly the kind of move that will spark the next generational rift.

And mentioning a Common Employer is the avenue to address these issues, multiple times is not something that was likely don't for no reason. They could have simply said that under the sections the ULP was filed, there is no avenue for remedy.

What they are doing here is outlining the broader statutory context to clarify why a particular remedy doesn’t apply. Again it has zero, ZERO bearing on both the validity of that claim or the outcome.

[truedude]

When in the history of these organizations, has collaboration ever resulted in a net benefit for Jazz pilots?

We are dealing with a pilot group that gave away our biggest bargaining advantage, the exclusivity of tier 2 flying, for absolutely nothing in return, creating the last decade of essentially negative bargaining for regional pilots.

You're living in the past. The people responsible for 2 decades of concessions are gone. ACPA is gone. We're all on one team now and ACA has doubled in size, with nearly half being hired in the last 5 years. It's an entirely new landscape, with a new cast of characters (on our side at least), and treating this like nothing has changed only limits what’s possible going forward.

Trying to collaborate given the above is ... absolutely the worst option.

I disagree, has anything good ever come out of two pilots groups waring with each other? No. It may be hard for you to see but there are plenty of short and near term opportunities to sort this out provided we're all working in tandem. For AC pilots, it's in our professional interest to have both a stable regional and a mature, predictable pilot pipeline. Collaboration isn’t a favor to regional pilots, it’s a strategic necessity for us at mainline.

So no, a Section 35 is the only option left to take. And the dialogue only ends if the parties choose to end the dialogue. There is absolutely no reason talks can't continue while the Section 35 moves forward. No reason operational changes can't be made while the case drags on. Remember, a Section 35 is filed against a corporation, not any individual employee group.

If you think ACA would entertain meaningful dialogue while a Section 35 is underway, you don’t have a realistic grasp of the dynamics in play. The fact that it’s “filed against the company” doesn’t make it any less of an existential threat to our seniority structure, and it will be treated accordingly. If you’re looking to continue the sad old narrative of Air Canada pilots selling out the regionals, this is exactly the kind of move that will spark the next generational rift.

And mentioning a Common Employer is the avenue to address these issues, multiple times is not something that was likely don't for no reason. They could have simply said that under the sections the ULP was filed, there is no avenue for remedy.

What they are doing here is outlining the broader statutory context to clarify why a particular remedy doesn’t apply. Again it has zero, ZERO bearing on both the validity of that claim or the outcome.

I am not living in the past, I am living in the last two years. For the last two years your group did nothing but obfuscate, obstruct, and failed to offer anything meaningful or relevant, eventually leading to the CIRB kicking them out. So same old same old. As far as strategy, AC pilots have never demonstrated any long term strategy for the industry as a whole. Again, you are asking us all to believe that this time is different, with zero evidence that it would or will be.

And you can't claim a s.35 has a low probability of success and a waste of time, while also claiming it to be an existential crisis. Both can't be true simultaneously.

And have you even considered the worst case scenario of DOH list merger... Jazz has 900 active pilots, give or take... about 600 of them have ATPLs, the rest don't. So merge the 600 guys with ATPLs, DOH, the rest BOTL. And off those 600, 200 retire in the next 5 years or so. So you are left with 400 pilots shuffled into a list of 5800 pilots, over a period of years. Slowly toss the Qs to PAL or others, park the RJs, and ACA once again controls all Jet flying, something they have wanted since 2003. Hard to call that an existential crisis...

In the end, if a section 35 is filed, it won't come down to how you feel about it, but rather how AC structured it's business. And even if by some miracle AC pilots were prepared to come up with a mutually agreeable solution, without a section 35, it will still require AC corporate to agree. And they don't seem interested in agreeing to anything that costs money. And you aren't going to fix Jazz without significantly improving pay and working conditions to attract pilots. And then there is the problem that both Jazz and AC are trying to attract the same pilots right now.

So we can talk until we are blue in the face... but that has been tried for 2 years, and nothing came of it.

[Tony Soprano]

And have you even considered the worst case scenario of DOH list merger... Jazz has 900 active pilots, give or take... about 600 of them have ATPLs, the rest don't. So merge the 600 guys with ATPLs, DOH, the rest BOTL. And off those 600, 200 retire in the next 5 years or so. So you are left with 400 pilots shuffled into a list of 5800 pilots, over a period of years. Slowly toss the Qs to PAL or others, park the RJs, and ACA once again controls all Jet flying, something they have wanted since 2003. Hard to call that an existential crisis...

Finally the true goals get revealed. Leverage the 285 guys' legitimate grievance to get the remaining Jazz guys on the AC list, many of whom would have enough years in to hold WB captain.

Good luck! And you wonder why AC guys are loathe to help you out?

[truedude]

And have you even considered the worst case scenario of DOH list merger... Jazz has 900 active pilots, give or take... about 600 of them have ATPLs, the rest don't. So merge the 600 guys with ATPLs, DOH, the rest BOTL. And off those 600, 200 retire in the next 5 years or so. So you are left with 400 pilots shuffled into a list of 5800 pilots, over a period of years. Slowly toss the Qs to PAL or others, park the RJs, and ACA once again controls all Jet flying, something they have wanted since 2003. Hard to call that an existential crisis...

Finally the true goals get revealed. Leverage the 285 guys' legitimate grievance to get the remaining Jazz guys on the AC list, many of whom would have enough years in to hold WB captain.

Good luck! And you wonder why AC guys are loathe to help you out?

That isnt a goal. I don't want to work there at all. Neither do most of Jazz pilots. But Jazz is dying, and we need to use the options available to us. One of them a s.35. I would much rather AC had recognized the problem years ago, and fixed it then. But they didn't, so here we are.

And if the wide body left seats are a worry, stick a 10 year fence around them.

And it was never just about the 285 pilots, but the violation to our collective agreement, interference in bargaining, and failure to uphold the Jazz CPA exclusive clause.