Pilots thinking of leaving WJ due to 16 year upgrades

[JBI]

I thought they were upgrading a few guys in YYZ this year.

Hasn’t been a YYZ upgrade for a long time, I’d say a year. There are talks of the November post-merger rebid being a reduction bid for YYZ, although that is all speculation right now as WJ is keeping their plans very hush hush.

Last YYZ upgrade was June 2024 at 9 1/2 years at the company. That pilot hit 10 years at WJ this week.

Currently, there are YEG and YWG upgrades this month, those pilots have roughly 10 years at WJ.

There will be a few months without upgrades coming up as the Sunwing crews start integrating.

There will be uncertainty in YYZ for the year as well. This sucks for YYZ crews but considering the Company doesn't really even know how many planes Boeing will deliver this year, it's a sort of* understandable (*To be clear, I still am critical about how silent they're being about their plans: people have lives).

Trying to guess future upgrade times is like trying to pick the best line at a grocery store. You think you're in the shortest line and then the person in front of you has a few items that won't scan and all of a sudden the other lines go way quicker or, the opposite happens, things seem like they're not moving and suddenly the closed lane beside you opens up and takes a bunch of people ahead of you causing you to move up quicker.

I'm hardly an optimist, but I expect the upgrade times to lag for another year or two, and then start to be reduced again. A combo of growth of the combined airline, Boeing actually delivering airplanes and the pilot group continuing to get older.

The AR program is a bit of a red herring. The numbers right now really are not major and the Company doesn't feel the need to try and force an issue that they would either a: have to spend money on or b: might lose if it went to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. As the numbers increase those factors will change, but for now, it is what it is.

[phenix]

Well to be fair, it’s WJ ALPA that forced the one-AOC and integration on the last CA. Sunwing pilots would have been more than happy to have been kept a separated entity with their own contract with a tail limit/no growth. You can’t force the integration and then be mad about stagnation… unless you were promised an unrealistic merger list outcome by your own union.

It’s a roll up merger where an hedge fund bought a company, shut it down, and threw it in an existing pot. Onex never intended to keep the Sunwing flying separated from the rest of group, that’s the whole point of a roll up strategy. “Consolidation”, “rationalization”, “economies of scale” are all terms associated to this type of mergers, and they are usually followed by “cutting costs” and “layoffs” when employees are not united enough to protect themselves.

I am sure Onex would have been happy to keep a pilot group on a different contract, but mostly to keep them as adjustment variables. I think ALPA tried to prevent that. We all know that for employees, it’s a lose-lose deal, and lots of WestJet pilots would have been happy to keep Sunwing as a separate entity as well. But our owner doesn’t care about Sunwing or WestJet identities, they care about size and margins. Being divided and under different contracts while our owner is a PE group is asking to be screwed over.

[TheLastonetoknow]

I thought they were upgrading a few guys in YYZ this year.

Hasn’t been a YYZ upgrade for a long time, I’d say a year. There are talks of the November post-merger rebid being a reduction bid for YYZ, although that is all speculation right now as WJ is keeping their plans very hush hush.

The old trick of keeping your employees in the dark, therefore withholding extremely pertinent information needed to make a go/ no go or in other words a stay/leave decision.

[CaptainHaddock]

‘The AR program is a bit of a red herring. The numbers right now really are not major and the Company doesn't feel the need to try and force an issue that they would either a: have to spend money on or b: might lose if it went to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. As the numbers increase those factors will change, but for now, it is what it is’

Red herring for whom?. It’s 30-40 CA positions in a company with decade upgrade times. The majority of those CA’s upgraded to Ca within 1-2 years of joining WestJet and have spent decades in that seat. If they haven’t figured out their retirement plans by now it ain’t gonna happen. If they truly love flying then buy a plane or fly regional. They parachute into a base with a manufactured CA position after aging out on the 787, what’s priceless is when they then bid Long Call Reserve. Pushing another sod back into short call and they can’t be called out anyway as they can’t operate 80% of the reserve call-outs. I’m sorry, I initially thought ‘ah whatever, let the them be’-but in a super stagnant growth airline they are costing junior pilots a lot of time, money and misery. Most of them worked through the best periods of WJ and they are stagnating junior (all is relative, junior upgrades are 10-12 years depending on base) pilots. Once SWG pilots come over and operate under the WJ contract they too will be able to take part (as they should). ALPA reps say they can’t have a horse in the race as they represent both sides, and WJ doesn’t seem to give a s#1t either. It’s a s#1t program that grew out of an idea to let an original ‘Day 1’ner’ fly to 20 years at WJ. It lives outside of the contract and I’m sure would not survive in the contract.

Personally flying past 65 sounds like a great way to leave money to your kids as you’ll be on the wrong side of the grass. I’m planning to be out considerably sooner than 65.

[JBI]

‘The AR program is a bit of a red herring. The numbers right now really are not major and the Company doesn't feel the need to try and force an issue that they would either a: have to spend money on or b: might lose if it went to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. As the numbers increase those factors will change, but for now, it is what it is’

Red herring for whom?. It’s 30-40 CA positions in a company with decade upgrade times. The majority of those CA’s upgraded to Ca within 1-2 years of joining WestJet and have spent decades in that seat. If they haven’t figured out their retirement plans by now it ain’t gonna happen. If they truly love flying then buy a plane or fly regional. They parachute into a base with a manufactured CA position after aging out on the 787, what’s priceless is when they then bid Long Call Reserve. Pushing another sod back into short call and they can’t be called out anyway as they can’t operate 80% of the reserve call-outs. I’m sorry, I initially thought ‘ah whatever, let the them be’-but in a super stagnant growth airline they are costing junior pilots a lot of time, money and misery. Most of them worked through the best periods of WJ and they are stagnating junior (all is relative, junior upgrades are 10-12 years depending on base) pilots. Once SWG pilots come over and operate under the WJ contract they too will be able to take part (as they should). ALPA reps say they can’t have a horse in the race as they represent both sides, and WJ doesn’t seem to give a s#1t either. It’s a s#1t program that grew out of an idea to let an original ‘Day 1’ner’ fly to 20 years at WJ. It lives outside of the contract and I’m sure would not survive in the contract.

Personally flying past 65 sounds like a great way to leave money to your kids as you’ll be on the wrong side of the grass. I’m planning to be out considerably sooner than 65.

It’s a red herring in that the legal starting point isn’t every pilot should retire at 65 so legally, if they love flying that much, they are entitled to keep flying until they can’t hold a medical OR the company determines that it’s an “undue hardship” to keep them flying. (i.e. it’s cheaper to buy them out than to make route and pairing alterations - I know for a fact that this fact is looked at by bean counters on at least a semi-regular basis). That’s the law. You are correct that it lives outside the contract; it supersedes it.

Not sure if or how many AR guys have bid Long Call Reserve, though I know there’s talk of it. Doing that will help convince the company much quicker that trying to accommodate the over 65 pilots legally constitutes an “undue hardship” but it entirely comes down to when the Company decides it wants to do something. ALPA trying to initiate something would get them sued.

Now, to be clear, I would love there to be 20-30 new Captain spots. With backfill, it would put me pretty close to a new pay rate. I’ve also said that if the Company was smart, they’d get ahead of this earlier rather than later, but the Company doesn’t have a track record on being proactive in these types of situations: I’m not holding my breath. But the reality is that if the Company unilaterally imposed mandatory retirement at 65 right now, there’s a good chance they’d lose when (not if) it was challenged at the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. When numbers increase, the odds change making it more likely that the Company would win at the CHRT that keeping Pilots on past 65 constitutes an undue hardship.

I also don't see myself flying past, or much past, age 65.

[Nauclerus]

Any stats on how many pilots are retiring before 65 ? Average retirement age ? How many die before age 65 ?

[RockSalty]

‘The AR program is a bit of a red herring. The numbers right now really are not major and the Company doesn't feel the need to try and force an issue that they would either a: have to spend money on or b: might lose if it went to the Canadian Human Rights Tribunal. As the numbers increase those factors will change, but for now, it is what it is’

Red herring for whom?. It’s 30-40 CA positions in a company with decade upgrade times. The majority of those CA’s upgraded to Ca within 1-2 years of joining WestJet and have spent decades in that seat. If they haven’t figured out their retirement plans by now it ain’t gonna happen. If they truly love flying then buy a plane or fly regional. They parachute into a base with a manufactured CA position after aging out on the 787, what’s priceless is when they then bid Long Call Reserve. Pushing another sod back into short call and they can’t be called out anyway as they can’t operate 80% of the reserve call-outs. I’m sorry, I initially thought ‘ah whatever, let the them be’-but in a super stagnant growth airline they are costing junior pilots a lot of time, money and misery. Most of them worked through the best periods of WJ and they are stagnating junior (all is relative, junior upgrades are 10-12 years depending on base) pilots. Once SWG pilots come over and operate under the WJ contract they too will be able to take part (as they should). ALPA reps say they can’t have a horse in the race as they represent both sides, and WJ doesn’t seem to give a s#1t either. It’s a s#1t program that grew out of an idea to let an original ‘Day 1’ner’ fly to 20 years at WJ. It lives outside of the contract and I’m sure would not survive in the contract.

Personally flying past 65 sounds like a great way to leave money to your kids as you’ll be on the wrong side of the grass. I’m planning to be out considerably sooner than 65.

I'm pretty sure nobody gets kicked back into SCR because of AR guys bidding LCR, it just means someone who would've been the most senior reserve gets to be a block holder instead.

[CaptainHaddock]

I doubt WJ increases reserve to accommodate AR guys on it. So it is one less LCR position available for the reserve pool.LCR utilizes the top 25% of the reserve pool.

[cdnavater]

I doubt WJ increases reserve to accommodate AR guys on it. So it is one less LCR position available for the reserve pool.LCR utilizes the top 25% of the reserve pool.

Yes, but you could argue the pilot who would have held LCR is now a block holder. The senior AR pilot who could have held a block is swapping LCR with that guy. So, while there is one less LCR at the bottom, there is one more block for the bottom. Would the most junior block holder prefer long call reserve or a block.

[cjet]

3 years left for me. I’ll be out the door at 55.

Cjet

[pelmet]

I thought they were upgrading a few guys in YYZ this year.

Hasn’t been a YYZ upgrade for a long time, I’d say a year. There are talks of the November post-merger rebid being a reduction bid for YYZ, although that is all speculation right now as WJ is keeping their plans very hush hush.

So, what ended up being the final upgrade number at YYZ for 2025?

[Canadaflyer46]

I believe they downgraded around 70 captains in YYZ (not sure on that final number) with the reduction bid.
Planned upgrades system wide for 2026 was 22, now we’ve bold told that will be reduced due to the AR pilot ruling.
17 new Maxs arriving next year but not extra left seats. So lots of NGs being returned.

[fish4life]

So what’s the most junior cpt YOS now ?

[nohojob]

About 9

[Canadaflyer46]

So what’s the most junior cpt YOS now ?

10 years is most junior captain. It’s around the same seniority to hold FO on the 787 too.

[daedalusx]

Add another 5-6 years to be a block holder.

[Hysteria]

Add another 5-6 years to be a block holder.

is it the same case in YEG as YYC? So 10 yrs currently to upgrade at both bases and then reserve for a few years after that at both bases?

[Canadaflyer46]

Add another 5-6 years to be a block holder.

is it the same case in YEG as YYC? So 10 yrs currently to upgrade at both bases and then reserve for a few years after that at both bases?

10 years to hold a left seat, although that will be increasing with no upgrades in 2026. Currently 2014 hires are just above the reserve line for YYC/YEG/YWG, 2012 is the most junior bloc holder for YVR.

[Protonpilot]

For those thinking about coming to Air Canada, another angle to consider, this was just published in our ACA MEC ALPA FastRead:

"CWIPP Buy-In Transfer for WestJet New Hires
Since 2021, CWIPP has offered a buy-in transfer of previous aviation service for members of qualifying plans. Examples of eligible employers include Jazz, RCAF, Transport Canada and others. Since inception, over 150 members have taken advantage of this option with total assets transferred of over $7M.

Until very recently, new hire pilots joining Air Canada from WestJet were excluded from this option because their retirement plan was a company match RRSP which did not qualify under the Income Tax Act. Earlier this year, WestJet pilots joined CAAT DB Plus, an Ontario based multi-employer plan which bears many similarities to CWIPP. The CAAT DB Plus plan is eligible for transfer into CWIPP. Members interested in the buy-in transfer can learn more by downloading a comprehensive FAQ on the CWIPP secure member site."

I don't understand the tax issues here, but there now seems to be an option that wasn't available before. You can't undo yesterday for your seniority, but maybe you can get some or all of your pensionable time back.

[JBI]

Currently the most junior 737 Captain is a Feb 2016 hire - just under 10 years. YWG and YVR are the junior bases.

2016 was a big year for hiring with almost 200 pilots hired that year still at WJ. I don't think WJ has ever upgraded 200 Captains in a year even when they were growing like crazy, so length from start to upgrade will increase. 2017 was also a big year for hiring with 150+ pilots still on the list from that year. 2018 was a little more modest with around 100 on the list.

All this to say, that I expect years to upgrade will be increasing in the next few years.

Lots of discussions about the Company's bungling of the AR situation, but the reality is with 450 pilots hired between 8 -10 years ago, the roughly 30 active AR guys staying on doesn't affect upgrade times on a macro level (and this is written by someone who could theoretically be in line for an upgrade in the next year if there were 30 more Captain spots made available).

The real question with regard to upgrade times will be how many of the 737s on the way are growth or just fleet renewal.
In the next 5 years there will be approximately 200 retirements. Will the new 737s be enough to make up for the difference between new hires and retirements? Or will it take the 787s showing up to bring that time down?