Strike outcome desires

[Tbayer2021]

Its hilarious to see all the AC dissident posters pile in here to give their "expert" advice on late stage bargaining. Like they have a clue. Transat pilots will do whats best for them given the circumstances at hand. And those circumstances by the way, are entirely different from those faced by AC or even before with WestJet. Its a small airline vs national carrier, weak balance sheet vs a strong one, and the political environment both provicially and federally is completely different. I could go on..

Theres no sense in trying to correct all the inaccuracies or misinformation being posted here. But I will say this, the wage gains achieved over the last 15 years down south weren't achieved by striking. It was obtained over time and through pattern bargaining.

All the best to our peers at Transat!

Why do some AC pilots push so hard the capitulation strategy??

As Mark Twain said, “It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Its hilarious to see all the AC dissident posters pile in here to give their "expert" advice on late stage bargaining. Like they have a clue. Transat pilots will do whats best for them given the circumstances at hand. And those circumstances by the way, are entirely different from those faced by AC or even before with WestJet. Its a small airline vs national carrier, weak balance sheet vs a strong one, and the political environment both provicially and federally is completely different. I could go on..

Theres no sense in trying to correct all the inaccuracies or misinformation being posted here. But I will say this, the wage gains achieved over the last 15 years down south weren't achieved by striking. It was obtained over time and through pattern bargaining.

All the best to our peers at Transat!

Why do some AC pilots push so hard the capitulation strategy??

As Mark Twain said, “It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

A whole lot of Rationalizaton from Air Canada union leadership. Probably best they move along for the next round.

Good luck to Air Transat pilots. Hopefully they have earplugs on from the ACA MEC capitulators.

[Mr. North]

Ah yes, the usual peanut gallery taking shots at their peers and twisting the facts. Let’s be honest, the FAs didn’t get 42%, or anything close to their topline demands. They were routed straight to arbitration. Exactly what everyone familiar with the process expected. They’ll eventually get a small retroactive bump months down the line. That’s not some triumphant punch to the company’s jaw. It wont suddenly compell the company to follow every clause in their conteact. It’s simply the process doing what the process does.

Yet somehow this becomes fuel for the “strike at all costs” crowd, who seem convinced that volume equals leverage. It doesn’t. Throwing around words like capitulation isn’t analysis; it’s projection. No one at ACA advanced anything other than a strategy grounded in the actual constraints of Canadian labour law and the economic/political realities at play. Some may call it a "sell job", I call it competence.

The hard truth some people can’t seem to stomach is that meaningful gains in this country will come from pattern bargaining over time, not from theatrics, not from martyrdom, and not from lighting yourself on fire to make a point. The loudest critics consistently misunderstand the difference between emotion and leverage, and fortunately bargaining outcomes don’t depend on their understanding.

All the best to the Transat pilots. Whether they land a deal or earn a Battlestar, their outcome will strengthen the profession. And the background noise from the self-appointed revolutionaries won’t change that in the slightest.

[Dry Guy]

What is their current financial situation? The stock price chart looks like it's bleeding out. Could a prolonged strike put the airline out of business?

[goingnowherefast]

Management won't let the company go out of business. Neither will the government.

And in reality, neither will ALPA. They have negotiating supports and financial experts to estimate how hard they can push, and what they can expect (among other things). ALPA want what's best for the pilots. Pushing the employer to bankruptcy and thus the pilots to unemployment isn't good for the pilots.

[rudder]

Management won't let the company go out of business. Neither will the government.

And in reality, neither will ALPA. They have negotiating supports and financial experts to estimate how hard they can push, and what they can expect (among other things). ALPA want what's best for the pilots. Pushing the employer to bankruptcy and thus the pilots to unemployment isn't good for the pilots.

This is not intended to sound sympathetic to management……

TRZ has not posted a profit since 2018 (so yes, they were losing money even before COVID). TRZ is not a financially sound company whose challenges have only grown since COVID and the dramatic increase in debt. The debt-for-equity swap with the Feds was likely the only manoeuvre that avoided a CCAA filing. If there are any financials for airTransat they are irrelevant. Just as meaningless as Sunwing airlines compared to SWG or Air Canada Regional (when it was wholly-owned) vs AC.

In their current financial state, it is likely that every dollar added to pilot cost will be an additional dollar loss on the income statement. To be sure TRZ does not deserve a pilot cost ‘discount’ against their competitors. It is TRZ’s own fault that it has high debt servicing costs. So the structural deficiencies that exist at TRZ will not be solved at the pilot bargaining table.

Strike or no strike, TRZ must restructure. Whether that is behind the veil of court protection, through new leadership, through new ownership, or working with major creditors outside of CCAA - status quo is not an option. Peladeau has figured that out.

p.s. companies go out of business because they are either obsolete or poorly run. The last party that recognizes that is incumbent management. ALPA has represented many pilot groups that were employed by carriers that were ultimately liquidated. ALPA doesn’t contribute financially nor purport to run any airline (single exception might be when ALPA got non-voting representation at the board level in exchange for CH11 concessions in the US).

[thepoors]

Its hilarious to see all the AC dissident posters pile in here to give their "expert" advice on late stage bargaining. Like they have a clue. Transat pilots will do whats best for them given the circumstances at hand. And those circumstances by the way, are entirely different from those faced by AC or even before with WestJet. Its a small airline vs national carrier, weak balance sheet vs a strong one, and the political environment both provicially and federally is completely different. I could go on..

Theres no sense in trying to correct all the inaccuracies or misinformation being posted here. But I will say this, the wage gains achieved over the last 15 years down south weren't achieved by striking. It was obtained over time and through pattern bargaining.

You're saying Transat is in a worse negotiating position yet you expect results without a strike, or at least the threat of one? Pattern bargaining doesn't mean what you think it means. So AT gets AC +2%, after AC got WJ +2%? Repeating this crap isn't pattern bargaining. These "gains" are meaningless when they don't even get close to matching inflation, let alone salaries south of the border. Nothing of significant value is being established, especially when the QOL gains aren't even implemented.

The hard truth some people can’t seem to stomach is that meaningful gains in this country will come from pattern bargaining over time, not from theatrics, not from martyrdom, and not from lighting yourself on fire to make a point. The loudest critics consistently misunderstand the difference between emotion and leverage, and fortunately bargaining outcomes don’t depend on their understanding.

Maybe look up the definition of pattern bargaining before you spout off nonsense so you don't sound like such a cretin:
a labor strategy where a union first secures a strong contract (the "pattern") with one major employer in an industry, then uses that agreement as a template.

There needs to be a breakthrough for it to work, and ALPA has so far failed to secure a strong contract for any airline in this country (despite their bullshit wOrLd ClAsS propaganda). Therefore there is currently nothing to pattern off of. All we have is corps getting away with tossing us garbage and saying take it or leave it while the government enables them. Until that "pattern" is broken, things are not going to improve. Striking is the only tactic we have to combat this and ALPA refuses to use it. WHY?

[Freshredmeat]

Ah yes, the usual peanut gallery taking shots at their peers and twisting the facts. Let’s be honest, the FAs didn’t get 42%, or anything close to their topline demands. They were routed straight to arbitration. Exactly what everyone familiar with the process expected. They’ll eventually get a small retroactive bump months down the line. That’s not some triumphant punch to the company’s jaw. It wont suddenly compell the company to follow every clause in their conteact. It’s simply the process doing what the process does.

Yet somehow this becomes fuel for the “strike at all costs” crowd, who seem convinced that volume equals leverage. It doesn’t. Throwing around words like capitulation isn’t analysis; it’s projection. No one at ACA advanced anything other than a strategy grounded in the actual constraints of Canadian labour law and the economic/political realities at play. Some may call it a "sell job", I call it competence.

The hard truth some people can’t seem to stomach is that meaningful gains in this country will come from pattern bargaining over time, not from theatrics, not from martyrdom, and not from lighting yourself on fire to make a point. The loudest critics consistently misunderstand the difference between emotion and leverage, and fortunately bargaining outcomes don’t depend on their understanding.

All the best to the Transat pilots. Whether they land a deal or earn a Battlestar, their outcome will strengthen the profession. And the background noise from the self-appointed revolutionaries won’t change that in the slightest.

If ALPA's main tool is pattern bargaining, which is pretty clear given the union hasn't ran a strike in a quarter of a century and runs it's Strike Fund like a TFSA investment account where the focus is on interest rates versus building any sort of infrastructure to fight the rat infestation...could we just reduce the dues?

I mean get rid of the steak dinners, reduce expenses on paying reps 95 hrs a month which just invites career "avoid the flight line at any cost" aviators, and other social parties if we are just going to not strike and completely rely on what the next airline pilot group does.

Honest question...why are we wasting all this money?

And can we just publicly state we dont support the labour movement anymore because we think we know better since strikes are a waste of time.

[ClearedDirect]

Ah yes, the usual peanut gallery taking shots at their peers and twisting the facts. Let’s be honest, the FAs didn’t get 42%, or anything close to their topline demands. They were routed straight to arbitration. Exactly what everyone familiar with the process expected. They’ll eventually get a small retroactive bump months down the line. That’s not some triumphant punch to the company’s jaw. It wont suddenly compell the company to follow every clause in their conteact. It’s simply the process doing what the process does.

Yet somehow this becomes fuel for the “strike at all costs” crowd, who seem convinced that volume equals leverage. It doesn’t. Throwing around words like capitulation isn’t analysis; it’s projection. No one at ACA advanced anything other than a strategy grounded in the actual constraints of Canadian labour law and the economic/political realities at play. Some may call it a "sell job", I call it competence.

The hard truth some people can’t seem to stomach is that meaningful gains in this country will come from pattern bargaining over time, not from theatrics, not from martyrdom, and not from lighting yourself on fire to make a point. The loudest critics consistently misunderstand the difference between emotion and leverage, and fortunately bargaining outcomes don’t depend on their understanding.

All the best to the Transat pilots. Whether they land a deal or earn a Battlestar, their outcome will strengthen the profession. And the background noise from the self-appointed revolutionaries won’t change that in the slightest.

What I do not understand is how ALPA can tell everyone to avoid strikes at all costs while expecting companies to take any threat seriously. When management knows ALPA will ultimately accept a last minute deal rather than actually strike, the outcome is predictable. They will simply offer less. It is basic negotiation. If you openly advertise that your strike threat is a prop, the other side will call the bluff every single time. Fake strike centers and staged mobilization only highlight how little conviction there is.

At the same time, what realistic option did the Flight Attendants have. The company was setting up to lean on the government to interfere and push for further wage suppression. Their only answer was public support and they actually built it. Their communications strategy forced the government to back off because public sentiment supported their cause in a strong and undeniable way. They stood firm and they achieved more through strength not fear.

History makes it obvious that labour did not move forward by folding. Workers gained rights from courage and from taking risks, not from looking for an exit the moment things became uncomfortable. Capitulation is not strategy. It is concession dressed up as caution. And the irony is that the people pushing this avoid conflict approach are now attempting to present surrender as leadership. Some of them may want to review the history of the labour movement because nothing meaningful was ever won by blinking first.

[CanadianPilotQc]

TA reached.. so what the deal is about?

[pelmet]

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/news/canada/a ... r-AA1S2mc7

[Man_in_the_sky]

Unanimous MEC votes. Get your hopes up !

[CFM Symphony]

10 years of neoliberalism

I think you’re conflating neoliberalism and democratic socialism. The former is a late 20th century take on classical liberalism - think Thatcher/Reagan. The latter is more closely associated with the last 10 years.

[Bede]

TA reached.. so what the deal is about?

Pay scales somewhere between AC B767 & 737. Bunch of other improvements.

[TFTMB heavy]

TA reached.. so what the deal is about?

Pay scales somewhere between AC B767 & 737. Bunch of other improvements.

Closer to the 767.

Good deal considering the financial situation the company is in. WS and AC will get new contracts before it's our turn again.

[flyinhigh]

This deal is a home run for the TS group. Well done, way to stick together and show true unity guys.

[Bede]

Good deal considering the financial situation the company is in. WS and AC will get new contracts before it's our turn again.

Absolutely. Well done.

[guss]

Good job guys!

[twa22]

TA reached.. so what the deal is about?

Pay scales somewhere between AC B767 & 737. Bunch of other improvements.

Closer to the 767.

Good deal considering the financial situation the company is in. WS and AC will get new contracts before it's our turn again.

I saw the payscales and other QOL items and it is fairly good considering what you said about the companies financial situation. Goes to show how much AC and WS had left on the table if TS was able to offer what they did

[Dry Guy]

This is significantly better than the Air Canada contract. Congratulations guys.

[Me262]

It's an amazing new contract. WS and AC are shameful. World class contracts

[Hysteria]

TA reached.. so what the deal is about?

Pay scales somewhere between AC B767 & 737. Bunch of other improvements.

Where are you seeing this? Congratulations to transat pilots.

[Bede]

Where are you seeing this? Congratulations to transat pilots.

It's in the executive summary.

[JBI]

I saw the payscales and other QOL items and it is fairly good considering what you said about the companies financial situation. Goes to show how much AC and WS had left on the table if TS was able to offer what they did

Goes to show what employee groups are able to achieve when Management knows that the Government will NOT swoop in using s.107 of the Canada Labour Code to force everyone back to work in the event of a strike.

[BusDriver130]

Where are you seeing this? Congratulations to transat pilots.

It's in the executive summary.

Anyone can share that? Congrats to the Transat pilots!