The TA

[flyinhigh]

Since the other thread went down a black hole of absolute useless crap, what’s coming out from the MEC?

Is it as good as it looks at first glance from the summary?

[TFTMB heavy]

Road shows start Tuesday till Friday so we’ll know more this week. They’re all busy getting set up for the presentations, finishing some language and translation. Everyone is just patiently waiting or starting rumours.

[A310Heavy]

Im eagerly awaiting road shows.

Leaning on a Yes because there is some good stuff here. Pay could be better but at least starting pay isn't as bad as Air Canada.

Definitely happy I've decided to stick it out compared to what the Air Canada pilots were able to negotiate. Must be terrible with those reserve rules, junior pay, no monthly guarantee.

[330heavy]

.

[khedrei]

Im eagerly awaiting road shows.

Leaning on a Yes because there is some good stuff here. Pay could be better but at least starting pay isn't as bad as Air Canada.

Definitely happy I've decided to stick it out compared to what the Air Canada pilots were able to negotiate. Must be terrible with those reserve rules, junior pay, no monthly guarantee.

What planet are you living on? The starting pay is basically the same as AC... or what... just a couple thousand more. And other posters here have said that take home is several % points less than AC. I dont know the exact figures on that, but it seems like the starting pay will fall short of AC if thats accurate.

Are you guys sleeping....? Serious question.

And where does it say AC doesnt get a monthly guarantee. Hasn't it always been 75 hrs...?

[Canadaflyer46]

Im eagerly awaiting road shows.

Leaning on a Yes because there is some good stuff here. Pay could be better but at least starting pay isn't as bad as Air Canada.

Definitely happy I've decided to stick it out compared to what the Air Canada pilots were able to negotiate. Must be terrible with those reserve rules, junior pay, no monthly guarantee.

What planet are you living on? The starting pay is basically the same as AC... or what... just a couple thousand more. And other posters here have said that take home is several % points less than AC. I dont know the exact figures on that, but it seems like the starting pay will fall short of AC if thats accurate.

Are you guys sleeping....? Serious question.

And where does it say AC doesnt get a monthly guarantee. Hasn't it always been 75 hrs...?

AC has the highest hourly because they sold the farm on everything else. Worse lifestyle in the business. Transat made some huge gains in this TA. 100% deadhead pay alone deserves an applause. Thank you for helping to raise the floor. This TA shouldn’t even be compared to the joke that AC settled for 3 days before the deadline.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Im eagerly awaiting road shows.

Leaning on a Yes because there is some good stuff here. Pay could be better but at least starting pay isn't as bad as Air Canada.

Definitely happy I've decided to stick it out compared to what the Air Canada pilots were able to negotiate. Must be terrible with those reserve rules, junior pay, no monthly guarantee.

What planet are you living on? The starting pay is basically the same as AC... or what... just a couple thousand more. And other posters here have said that take home is several % points less than AC. I dont know the exact figures on that, but it seems like the starting pay will fall short of AC if thats accurate.

Are you guys sleeping....? Serious question.

And where does it say AC doesnt get a monthly guarantee. Hasn't it always been 75 hrs...?

Air Canada does NOT have a monthly guarantee

[Hysteria]

What were the reasons for take home pay being allegedly less than AC before? Higher benefit cost on the employee?

[cdnavater]

Im eagerly awaiting road shows.

Leaning on a Yes because there is some good stuff here. Pay could be better but at least starting pay isn't as bad as Air Canada.

Definitely happy I've decided to stick it out compared to what the Air Canada pilots were able to negotiate. Must be terrible with those reserve rules, junior pay, no monthly guarantee.

What planet are you living on? The starting pay is basically the same as AC... or what... just a couple thousand more. And other posters here have said that take home is several % points less than AC. I dont know the exact figures on that, but it seems like the starting pay will fall short of AC if thats accurate.

Are you guys sleeping....? Serious question.

And where does it say AC doesnt get a monthly guarantee. Hasn't it always been 75 hrs...?

Air Canada does NOT have a monthly guarantee

Unless it has changed, the annual guarantee is 900 hours, so even though they can reduce some months, they would have to increase other months block to meet the annual guarantee. 900/12=75, average over 12 months 75

[TFTMB heavy]

What were the reasons for take home pay being allegedly less than AC before? Higher benefit cost on the employee?

Yes. Our LTD premiums are expensive and we pay 100% of them. The upside is that it’s tax a free payment if you’re having to claim.

Medical and dental were not completely free to us, looks like that will change and there’s some good improvements to the max amounts.

RRSP match at 5%-8% sucks more out of the take home pay. Pension plan will take care of that.

Overall at first impression the changes I’ve seen will help with take home pay.

Pay scales are not perfect, but they are a big improvement. Combine them with full recognition of service time and you have a much better salary progression. Our work rules were already decent, huge improvements were made in this TA.

This week will reveal the rest.

[khedrei]

Ok, so it appears confirmed the starting pay is basically the same as AC.

GREAT JOB GUYS. We'll get em next time. At least the senior guys got what they wanted!

[thepoors]

What planet are you living on? The starting pay is basically the same as AC... or what... just a couple thousand more. And other posters here have said that take home is several % points less than AC. I dont know the exact figures on that, but it seems like the starting pay will fall short of AC if thats accurate.

Are you guys sleeping....? Serious question.

And where does it say AC doesnt get a monthly guarantee. Hasn't it always been 75 hrs...?

Air Canada does NOT have a monthly guarantee

Unless it has changed, the annual guarantee is 900 hours, so even though they can reduce some months, they would have to increase other months block to meet the annual guarantee. 900/12=75, average over 12 months 75

In practice that's not how it works. Like 3rdworldclasspilot said it is not a monthly guarantee. You are correct that's it's a 900hr annual guarantee. However, it gets paid out as a single lump sum "top up" basically whenever the company feels like it. This past year it was several months delayed from when it should have been paid out according to the contract.

The company can block every month under 75hrs if they want. Which means we don't see that money until they decide.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

What planet are you living on? The starting pay is basically the same as AC... or what... just a couple thousand more. And other posters here have said that take home is several % points less than AC. I dont know the exact figures on that, but it seems like the starting pay will fall short of AC if thats accurate.

Are you guys sleeping....? Serious question.

And where does it say AC doesnt get a monthly guarantee. Hasn't it always been 75 hrs...?

Air Canada does NOT have a monthly guarantee

Unless it has changed, the annual guarantee is 900 hours, so even though they can reduce some months, they would have to increase other months block to meet the annual guarantee. 900/12=75, average over 12 months 75

Again... Air Canada does not NOT HAVE A MONTHLY GUARANTEE

Say, you fly 70 hrs DBM for 6 months then 6 more at 80 hrs.


So average is 75 hrs.

Now, for those 6 months, you would have made 5 more hours per month with a MONTHLY GUARANTEE.

So you lost 30 hours of pay. Also remember VO counts AGAINST the 900 hrs.

Industry Worst. World Class Indeed.

[cdnavater]

Air Canada does NOT have a monthly guarantee

Unless it has changed, the annual guarantee is 900 hours, so even though they can reduce some months, they would have to increase other months block to meet the annual guarantee. 900/12=75, average over 12 months 75

Again... Air Canada does not NOT HAVE A MONTHLY GUARANTEE

Say, you fly 70 hrs DBM for 6 months then 6 more at 80 hrs.


So average is 75 hrs.

Now, for those 6 months, you would have made 5 more hours per month with a MONTHLY GUARANTEE.

So you lost 30 hours of pay. Also remember VO counts AGAINST the 900 hrs.

Industry Worst. World Class Indeed.

Has this language changed? And practically how does DBM vs block credit work? To me it seems absolutely ridiculous for voluntary overtime to count towards your minimum block of 900, that would essentially negate any VO you do throughout the year on low block months.
If this is true, my ass would do ZERO VO, I mean really it would bring your pay up for that month but essentially clawed back later!
26.03.04 The DBM will be limited as follows:
26.03.04.01 For all Positions the total hours for the 12-month period (June 2nd to June 1st) must fall in the range of 900 to 996 hours.

26.04.91.01 All Block Credits in excess of the DBM for DBM’s of 75 hours or more, excluding block growth and flying from TT, will count towards AO.

[khedrei]

Air Canada does NOT have a monthly guarantee

Unless it has changed, the annual guarantee is 900 hours, so even though they can reduce some months, they would have to increase other months block to meet the annual guarantee. 900/12=75, average over 12 months 75

Again... Air Canada does not NOT HAVE A MONTHLY GUARANTEE

Say, you fly 70 hrs DBM for 6 months then 6 more at 80 hrs.


So average is 75 hrs.

Now, for those 6 months, you would have made 5 more hours per month with a MONTHLY GUARANTEE.

So you lost 30 hours of pay. Also remember VO counts AGAINST the 900 hrs.

Industry Worst. World Class Indeed.

So you are confirming that Transat DOES in fact have about the same starting pay as AC.

Im quite certain the AC contract was garbage. I said that at the time when a whole bunch were praising it. But to those trying to sell this "give all the money to the top" contract by saying the starting pay is better than AC are just plain lying. Perhaps the reserve rules, monthly guarantee, DH are all better. But the starting pay isn't. In fact, overall pay rates are no better at virtually every stage.

Glad you guys are happy selling the young guys down the river in favor of your captains buying another boat. Just be honest about it. Dont say its something its not.

[Bede]

In practice that's not how it works. Like 3rdworldclasspilot said it is not a monthly guarantee. You are correct that's it's a 900hr annual guarantee. However, it gets paid out as a single lump sum "top up" basically whenever the company feels like it. This past year it was several months delayed from when it should have been paid out according to the contract.

The company can block every month under 75hrs if they want. Which means we don't see that money until they decide.

That may be correct, but for the record, Delta is a 65 hr MMG.

[thepoors]

In practice that's not how it works. Like 3rdworldclasspilot said it is not a monthly guarantee. You are correct that's it's a 900hr annual guarantee. However, it gets paid out as a single lump sum "top up" basically whenever the company feels like it. This past year it was several months delayed from when it should have been paid out according to the contract.

The company can block every month under 75hrs if they want. Which means we don't see that money until they decide.

That may be correct, but for the record, Delta is a 65 hr MMG.

Yes, that's quite low. But the point is it's still a monthly guarantee, therefore you know you will not make less than that for any single month. With AC your pay could fluctuate considerably month to month. It's fine when you're a WB CA raking it in and you get your delayed gratification top up after year end accounting. That unpredictability is not so fun for junior guys if they're already living paycheck to paycheck.

[Babar350]

What about this "bonus pay"?
What do you guys think of it?

[thepoors]

What about this "bonus pay"?
What do you guys think of it?

Might be the worst part of the contract.

Retroactive pay is not a "bonus," it's pay you are owed. Withholding that for up to 2 years is ridiculous.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

In practice that's not how it works. Like 3rdworldclasspilot said it is not a monthly guarantee. You are correct that's it's a 900hr annual guarantee. However, it gets paid out as a single lump sum "top up" basically whenever the company feels like it. This past year it was several months delayed from when it should have been paid out according to the contract.

The company can block every month under 75hrs if they want. Which means we don't see that money until they decide.

That may be correct, but for the record, Delta is a 65 hr MMG.

Good call Bede...let's bring up Delta and how they absolutely crush the trash at Air Canada & WestJet. The pay isn't even in the same league.

At Delta, 65 hours is a contractual floor, not the economic reality for lineholders and not what pilots budget their lives around.

Under the Delta Pilot Working Agreement, lineholder pay protection is based on the awarded line value, not the 65-hour minimum. Delta builds PBS lines around a Targeted Line Value (TLV) tied to the Average Line Value (ALV), which typically sits in the mid-80s hours per month, depending on the bid period. If flying is lost for company reasons, pay is protected to the value of the awarded line, not reduced to MMG levels .

For reserve pilots, Delta provides a monthly reserve line guarantee that applies regardless of utilization. Even with minimal flying, reserve pilots are paid the reserve guarantee, not block flown and not the 65-hour minimum .

In practice: • Lineholders are paid at or near ALV
• Reserves are paid their reserve guarantee
• The 65-hour MMG functions as a catastrophic backstop, not a normal outcome

This is why Delta pilots routinely earn well above contractual minimums, with predictable monthly income and limited downside risk from cancellations, training, or soft utilization.

In summary, Delta pilots make typically double what we make in this country while Air Canada can't even make a clear bargaining win over broke leisure carriers or low cost airlines.

Good reminder Bede!

[altiplano]

Monthly MBG at Air Canada is DBM dependent and between 60 and 72 hours for block holders, between 68 and 82 hours for reserve pilots.

First two pay steps FO/RP are guaranteed higher of above or 75 hours.

Depending on fleet, pilots are also guaranteed overseas and nav pay. 71 hours on WBs, 10 hours on 737, 3 hours on 320.

[737Drver]

Monthly MBG at Air Canada is DBM dependent and between 60 and 72 hours for block holders, between 68 and 82 hours for reserve pilots.

First two pay steps FO/RP are guaranteed higher of above or 75 hours.

Depending on fleet, pilots are also guaranteed overseas and nav pay. 71 hours on WBs, 10 hours on 737, 3 hours on 320.

So sounds like AC has the worst guarantees, productivity, reserve rules, vacation and starting pay.

[3rdWorldClassPilot]

Monthly MBG at Air Canada is DBM dependent and between 60 and 72 hours for block holders, between 68 and 82 hours for reserve pilots.

First two pay steps FO/RP are guaranteed higher of above or 75 hours.

Depending on fleet, pilots are also guaranteed overseas and nav pay. 71 hours on WBs, 10 hours on 737, 3 hours on 320.

So sounds like AC has the worst guarantees, productivity, reserve rules, vacation and starting pay.

And the bonus (incentive) plan they gave away is now also industry worst

[altiplano]

Just providing the facts of it because what was posted above is somewhat wrong.

You're quick to jump on how Delta never falls back to their 65 hour DBM because line values are higher, fact is that AC pilots don't really get MBG because their line values are higher too...

But I agree that a 75/month is better than 900/year. Don't get below 75 too much but when I do I'm usually glad because it's less work days... the extra top up would be alright though.

[itsgrosswhatinet]

Monthly MBG at Air Canada is DBM dependent and between 60 and 72 hours for block holders, between 68 and 82 hours for reserve pilots.

First two pay steps FO/RP are guaranteed higher of above or 75 hours.

Depending on fleet, pilots are also guaranteed overseas and nav pay. 71 hours on WBs, 10 hours on 737, 3 hours on 320.

I usually get around 65-68 as a block holder on my new fleet. Is the 900 hour guarantee paid out in January for the previous year?