Strike outcome desires

[khedrei]

Curious, you won't answer how much you paid for that house that you mentioned you had 9% interest on it. Or is because you realized that 9% interest on 200K is a tiny bit different than say, 4% or even 3% on 800K?

Like I said I'm GEN X not a boomer so I was fortunate enough to not have to pay 9% interest on a house. I did have the pleasure of having my first job pay me $300/week and had to find place to live near there.

My first house was a mobile home actually and I was lucky enough my ex wife had the down payment saved up because I sure didn't with what I was making. We lived within our means and every time we moved we never bought the place we wanted, we bought the one we could afford. Used cars, no Uber eats and eating out every day and we made coffee at home.

I fly with some FOs that are broke and some have rental properties. Before you go pointing at other people you think had it easier than you make sure you don't have a finger pointed right back at you for how you chose to live your life.

My apologies. My question was directed at cndavater since he mentioned he had to endure 9% interest on his first home as a sign of how difficult he had it. I was curious how much he paid for said house to plug it into a mortgage calculator and compare and contrast that with mean salaries in Canada at that time. But he doesn't seem to be interested in answering the question. He seems to be of the opinion that because he had a rough go at it in aviation, it also means his cohort was just as disadvantaged.

Average home prices in Toronto during 1981, the period that rates shot up to 21%, was $90,203 according to Toronto MLS. Add to that the fact that I believe 40 year mortgages were possible back then, or was it 35?

I'd be willing to bet that if cndavater was starting out today with his current salary but without the benefit of already having been on the property ladder. He could not afford the same lifestyle he has today, if he would even be approved for the house he owns.

And he still won't answer the question... but dont worry, you dont want his advice about money anyway unless you are looking to lose it all. Mr bankruptcy is the last person ill take advice from.

I agree with TFTMB that the wastefulness of the young generation is out of control and they really dont know what theu could afford if they actually tried. They definitely want everything, right away and have never heard of delayed gratification.

BUT, the fact that the Sr guys are getting a 100k raise and the starting wages are still 85k in the most expensive cities in the world at the Flag carrier is so sickening it can't even be joked about. The fact that you guys think its acceptable is abhorrent. Gripe about the wastefullness of young guys all you want, you can't live as a single person in any of these cities for 85k other than maybe a dingy basement apartment and even then youre just getting by. Dont even think about raising a family. If you think thats OK, you are clearly the one negotiating the contract and a yes voter.

Im financially comfortable, and happy, and I definitely take issue with the attitudes of some of the younger generation, but make no mistake about it, we are living through the largest transfer of wealth in history. Ill give you a guess which way its going. Do some research if you think im making it up.

Also, i could pretty much guarantee that the starting salaries would absolutely be enough for everyone if they they were in the range of 130-150k. I bet youd have almost no complaints. Interestingly enough, that would still be a smaller raise than the 777 captain with 3 ex wife's already making 300k got....

[MorePlates]

It’s clear that nothing was learned from the previous thread by my pups, altiplano and cdnavater. That’s fine - I’m here now, and hopefully we can fix that in this thread.

I also notice that two other geniuses, TFTMB and Old Fella, have joined the group. Fantastic - the more, the merrier.

[TSC_Driver]

This thread has taken a turn! There's a lot to unpack in here.

At Air Transat we had a lot of ground to make up in the pay and take home especially. New pay scales are good, some improvements everywhere and for everyone. New benefits and insurance deal with a pension should improve take home.

I suspect entry salaries will never be enough for some people but the reality is that the industry and the economy have changed but also the entry level pilots. Experience is down, time to get into the rights seat of an airline is way down. You can complain about boomer all you want but they didn't necessarily have it any easier to get into that seat and took many more years and types of aircraft flown to get there. I'm GEN X and it took me 10 years. When Transat hired me I paid my bond at my old job and moved my family across the country for a pay cut. I saw the long term potential and a more stable lifestyle. I wasn't that interested into the airline world and perhaps a big reason why it took 10 years but I flew with two old timers that told it is by far the best lifestyle. They were right.

The cost of everything is up, groceries, cars, utilities, housing... I'm glad I make a good living doing what I love and feel very fortunate. But let me give you a little bit of perspective on why the boomer captain of yours doesn't sound too sympathetic; while you sit there complaining about the cost of living and slow upgrades with your fresh ATPL, $6 Starbucks, $1500 iPhone and fancy watch he's thinking of everything he had to go thru to be where you are.

We're at a point where some people don't show up for interviews or ground schools without giving notice or quit in the middle of their training. That boomer captain would have never even dreamt of doing that. Who shows for an interview without a suit on?

I'm happy with what I've seen of this TA and look forward to the presentations next week.

Anyways, flame away.

Hey man,

As a fellow Transat first officer, I feel deeply insulted by your message, and I speak for many pilots at our airline.

It blows my mind to see how the first officer position is undervalued in this country, it’s simply insane.
For your information, there’s many FOs like me at Transat who joined with thousands of 703/704/705 Turbine/JET PIC. Not 1000, try 2500+, and over 4000+ hours total time.

Yes the experience level has dropped significantly in 2022/23 post COVID, and many of my fellow colleagues joined with barely 1500h.
Is that the norm? Absolutely not.

Is it still the case? NOPE. Transat has hired 4 pilots in 2025. So before you start posting some nonsense on a forum, publicly saying that your FOs don’t deserve to make a living wage despite them having significant experience, think twice man.

I started at Transat 3 years ago, I was making 62K gross, my take home was 1450$/biweekly.
FYI, saving on Starbucks didn’t really help me paying my rent, or should I say - my 1000$ for a damn bedroom with roommates.

You guys are so out of touch with reality it’s not even funny.
Many of my colleagues and myself included have worked 3+ years at Transat making poverty wages. My take home in 2025 will be 61K YTD as year 3 A330 FO.

This TA is great for Skippers, literally a jackpot when you include YOS.
Juniors FOs year 3-5 are the biggest losers.

We’re barely gaining 18%, still paying insurances, NO backpay (sorry 6% in May and 5% in 18 months isn’t really comparable to what AC/WS had) - we worked at a discount for months.

The MEC did a fantastic job getting a great deal for Captains.

AND BY THE WAY - I moved to Canada from Europe, spent many years in northern Manitoba, paid my bond at my ex 704 jet job, and yet - for guys like you, we’re still entitled young pilots.

There’s only ONE country in the G7 where we see such disparity between CPTs and FOs, and guess where it is ………

And please, for God’s sake- just STOP with the argument saying “well in 5 years you’ll make the bank” - sorry, but my bank account and line of credit need money now, not in 3-4-5 years, because as you know, when shit will hit the fan again, our union will probably sign a LOU with pay cuts and layoffs all over again as it historically occurs at Transat every 7-8 years.


Signed; an entitled FO lucky to fly a widebody at 5000 hours.

[Daniel Cooper]

$2900 per month is not a livable wage. Anyone that voted for that should feel bad for what they did to their junior colleagues while enriching themselves. It's shameful behaviour.

[DanWEC]

I think a partial solution there would be proper retro pay, now. Even a regressive scale so that jr guys would get a little more of a life preserver. I went through it and I'd vote for less retro % for myself than for year 2-3 guy if it came to it.
It's great that new hires starting in May will likely be over 100k, and will certainly break it on year 2- they won't have to endure what we did, but what about thowing a bone to those last guys who had to labour through soon-to-be nonexistant, archaic jr FO salaries, likely racking-up credit, or just treading water, and yet are still years away from the 8 year upgrade pocket? They got snubbed with sub 20% raises and nothing else but a promise for more money years down the road. I get it.

[TSC_Driver]

I think a partial solution there would be proper retro pay, now. Even a regressive scale so that jr guys would get a little more of a life preserver. I went through it and I'd vote for less retro % for myself than for year 2-3 guy if it came to it.
It's great that new hires starting in May will likely be over 100k, and will certainly break it on year 2- they won't have to endure what we did, but what about thowing a bone to those last guys who had to labour through soon-to-be nonexistant, archaic jr FO salaries, likely racking-up credit, or just treading water, and yet are still years away from the 8 year upgrade pocket? They got snubbed with sub 20% raises and nothing else but a promise for more money years down the road. I get it.

100%. Couldn’t have said it better.
Unfortunately there’s no way that this TA will be voted down or tweaked… It’s way too good for Captains.

[Tbayer2021]

$2900 per month is not a livable wage. Anyone that voted for that should feel bad for what they did to their junior colleagues while enriching themselves. It's shameful behaviour.

No shortage of boomers here telling us its just fine if we cut down on those pesky starbucks and avocado toasts. Apparently you can buy a place with $2900 a month according to them. Something something bootstrap.

[TFTMB heavy]

You guys are putting words in my mouth. I acknowledge it's way tougher these days with higher costs of housing and other life expenses. I merely pointed out that it's cringy to listen to some people complain when they have all latest tech and splurge on stuff you don't really need while complaining about their pay. Must of hit a nerve?

Looking at the Executive Summary I predict that take home pay will be increased by a decent margin on top of the pay increases. Insurance costs will drop, LTD will have different priced tiers. YOS and proper pension are big gains and much more profitable for the younger pilots. Top of the list barely gains from them in comparison. So it's fair to say the whole TA is geared towards the top of the list captains.

When I mentioned experience is way down I'm talking about the cadets and the few 500-1500 hour pilots we've hired. I think the starting point on the pascale should reflect your experience.

The signing bonus in lieu of retro is my only sore spot with the TA. If you do the math on 8 months of retro VS the 11% of the new scale annual salary (minus YOS bump) it's pretty close. Someone that did a lot of OT will obviously have a greater difference. Not thrilled it's paid in two lumps and one is in 2027 but my guess is cash is tight and May is an easier cashflow month for them.

We had a lot of catching up to do, we didn't make it all the way but considering the financial position the company is in I'm quite happy with that I've seen.

[Dry Guy]

So is there anything stopping all the flying being given to Porter?

[TFTMB heavy]

So is there anything stopping all the flying being given to Porter?

Besides the fact they do not have the aircraft, pilots and everything else to keep that going? I don't think so. The scope will be explained this week so right now I'm kinda guessing

[FL320]

This thread has taken a turn! There's a lot to unpack in here.

At Air Transat we had a lot of ground to make up in the pay and take home especially. New pay scales are good, some improvements everywhere and for everyone. New benefits and insurance deal with a pension should improve take home.

I suspect entry salaries will never be enough for some people but the reality is that the industry and the economy have changed but also the entry level pilots. Experience is down, time to get into the rights seat of an airline is way down. You can complain about boomer all you want but they didn't necessarily have it any easier to get into that seat and took many more years and types of aircraft flown to get there. I'm GEN X and it took me 10 years. When Transat hired me I paid my bond at my old job and moved my family across the country for a pay cut. I saw the long term potential and a more stable lifestyle. I wasn't that interested into the airline world and perhaps a big reason why it took 10 years but I flew with two old timers that told it is by far the best lifestyle. They were right.

The cost of everything is up, groceries, cars, utilities, housing... I'm glad I make a good living doing what I love and feel very fortunate. But let me give you a little bit of perspective on why the boomer captain of yours doesn't sound too sympathetic; while you sit there complaining about the cost of living and slow upgrades with your fresh ATPL, $6 Starbucks, $1500 iPhone and fancy watch he's thinking of everything he had to go thru to be where you are.

We're at a point where some people don't show up for interviews or ground schools without giving notice or quit in the middle of their training. That boomer captain would have never even dreamt of doing that. Who shows for an interview without a suit on?

I'm happy with what I've seen of this TA and look forward to the presentations next week.

Anyways, flame away.

For your information, there’s many FOs like me at Transat who joined with thousands of 703/704/705 Turbine/JET PIC. Not 1000, try 2500+, and over 4000+ hours total time.

Signed; an entitled FO lucky to fly a widebody at 5000 hours.

Those FOs with your experience will have the opportunity to upgrade very soon: Air Transat has to fully crew the 6 neos that are coming back in the upcoming months + all the retirements we had this year. Expect lots of upgrades showing up on the bid right after the TA voted.

[330heavy]

man the troll babies are in full force, christmas present expenses must be neigh. Funny and sad how close to 100k isn't enough for some, or maybe 1 multi-account poster here. I know many FOs here, and at AC, WS etc, at starting wages and they are making it, and most don't complain. I and others, inflation adjusted have also gone though the same, I'd even argue some of us had it worse, and adjusted today would be sub 50k at times. We made it work. I know plenty of non aviation people who make less than our starting wages, who have families in expensive cities, and they make it work. Do you know how many people would love to make what you are making right now for the work you put in? With all the moaning and whinging on here, go and MAKE IT WORK. You came into this career knowing the pay, you came to these companies, knowing the pay, and once you're here you complain?? WTF
Do some self reflection and realize maybe you are the problem if you can't make it work. Perhaps an airline career isn't for you, because it'll never be enough money for you. Find another career, or go to Emirates as some of you think it's the holy grail, and enjoy the work-life balance there.

And I already know the rebuttal here is the same broken record in every thread, but guess what, we don't care, just STFU and make it work or GTFO.

[TSC_Driver]

man the troll babies are in full force, christmas present expenses must be neigh. Funny and sad how close to 100k isn't enough for some, or maybe 1 multi-account poster here. I know many FOs here, and at AC, WS etc, at starting wages and they are making it, and most don't complain. I and others, inflation adjusted have also gone though the same, I'd even argue some of us had it worse, and adjusted today would be sub 50k at times. We made it work. I know plenty of non aviation people who make less than our starting wages, who have families in expensive cities, and they make it work. Do you know how many people would love to make what you are making right now for the work you put in? With all the moaning and whinging on here, go and MAKE IT WORK. You came into this career knowing the pay, you came to these companies, knowing the pay, and once you're here you complain?? WTF
Do some self reflection and realize maybe you are the problem if you can't make it work. Perhaps an airline career isn't for you, because it'll never be enough money for you. Find another career, or go to Emirates as some of you think it's the holy grail, and enjoy the work-life balance there.

And I already know the rebuttal here is the same broken record in every thread, but guess what, we don't care, just STFU and make it work or GTFO.

Maybe you should read my post again?
I’ve been making way under 100K for the last 3 years. Now that TA puts me at 110K gross. I’ve been flying commercially for 9 years FYI.
My previous PIC jobs were both well over 150K. Without those savings that I had from these jobs, I’d have quit Transat way earlier.

If people “wish” to make as much as a pilot, nothing stops them from taking all the financial/personal risks to get there and then do what it takes to keep their jobs; staying fit, current, and accepting being away from home very often.

I don’t have to justify why I should make money for what we do; we’re professionals with heavy responsibilities and expertise.
So yeah, 100K doesn’t cut it, especially in Toronto in 2025.

Sorry if I sound like a whining baby if I consider that taking home less than 4K a month isn’t enough to fly a widebody overseas to places like FCO/LGW after an 8h redeye with 2 pilots and an old fella on the left seat who makes 5 times my salary for sleeping from 50W to 20W.

——-

Transition to another post above that was mentioning a massive bid coming at Transat with the NEOs coming back.

As you may already know, the company is working with a consulting firm to manage their finances better. One of the findings was that we were way overstaffed in 2024. Hence, they’re not planning on replacing our retired pilots. A couples 321’s are coming back from the desert next summer but we also have 2 A330s leaving the fleet soon. Our net fleet will be stable until the XLRs join the fleet in 2 years.

Enough said for me now on this forum,
Cheers

[khedrei]

man the troll babies are in full force, christmas present expenses must be neigh. Funny and sad how close to 100k isn't enough for some, or maybe 1 multi-account poster here. I know many FOs here, and at AC, WS etc, at starting wages and they are making it, and most don't complain. I and others, inflation adjusted have also gone though the same, I'd even argue some of us had it worse, and adjusted today would be sub 50k at times. We made it work. I know plenty of non aviation people who make less than our starting wages, who have families in expensive cities, and they make it work. Do you know how many people would love to make what you are making right now for the work you put in? With all the moaning and whinging on here, go and MAKE IT WORK. You came into this career knowing the pay, you came to these companies, knowing the pay, and once you're here you complain?? WTF
Do some self reflection and realize maybe you are the problem if you can't make it work. Perhaps an airline career isn't for you, because it'll never be enough money for you. Find another career, or go to Emirates as some of you think it's the holy grail, and enjoy the work-life balance there.

And I already know the rebuttal here is the same broken record in every thread, but guess what, we don't care, just STFU and make it work or GTFO.

I mean... who can argue with that logic...

He's like Cdnavatar on steroids.

[thepoors]

man the troll babies are in full force, christmas present expenses must be neigh. Funny and sad how close to 100k isn't enough for some, or maybe 1 multi-account poster here. I know many FOs here, and at AC, WS etc, at starting wages and they are making it, and most don't complain. I and others, inflation adjusted have also gone though the same, I'd even argue some of us had it worse, and adjusted today would be sub 50k at times. We made it work. I know plenty of non aviation people who make less than our starting wages, who have families in expensive cities, and they make it work. Do you know how many people would love to make what you are making right now for the work you put in? With all the moaning and whinging on here, go and MAKE IT WORK. You came into this career knowing the pay, you came to these companies, knowing the pay, and once you're here you complain?? WTF
Do some self reflection and realize maybe you are the problem if you can't make it work. Perhaps an airline career isn't for you, because it'll never be enough money for you. Find another career, or go to Emirates as some of you think it's the holy grail, and enjoy the work-life balance there.

And I already know the rebuttal here is the same broken record in every thread, but guess what, we don't care, just STFU and make it work or GTFO.

I mean... who can argue with that logic...

He's like Cdnavatar on steroids.

That kind of mental illness is honestly just sad... it's unfortunate these are the people benefiting off the backs of FOs making 60k.

[330heavy]

Options are these. Quit and find another high paying career, or don't apply at all. If they can't fill seats theyll have to raise the starting pay. The fact you all knowingly accepted said wages says you are OK with it. So once again STFU. The mental illness is on you for a) accepting a term, then cry about how unfair it is b) unable to manage your own finances without mommy. And finally c) maybe it's those unable to get hired on at an airline. Again, not everyone is cut out to be a pilot or have the ability to make short term pain for long term gain. The satisfy me now crowd is here.

Finally, since you few are so obsessed with starting pay, I assume if a) you eventually make captain, you'll donate your wage to the less fortunate FOs, and demand change for pay parity with FOs because that would be fair and very socialist. But we all know how selfish you are, so no chance of that happening.

[dALre]

man the troll babies are in full force, christmas present expenses must be neigh. Funny and sad how close to 100k isn't enough for some, or maybe 1 multi-account poster here. I know many FOs here, and at AC, WS etc, at starting wages and they are making it, and most don't complain. I and others, inflation adjusted have also gone though the same, I'd even argue some of us had it worse, and adjusted today would be sub 50k at times. We made it work. I know plenty of non aviation people who make less than our starting wages, who have families in expensive cities, and they make it work. Do you know how many people would love to make what you are making right now for the work you put in? With all the moaning and whinging on here, go and MAKE IT WORK. You came into this career knowing the pay, you came to these companies, knowing the pay, and once you're here you complain?? WTF
Do some self reflection and realize maybe you are the problem if you can't make it work. Perhaps an airline career isn't for you, because it'll never be enough money for you. Find another career, or go to Emirates as some of you think it's the holy grail, and enjoy the work-life balance there.

And I already know the rebuttal here is the same broken record in every thread, but guess what, we don't care, just STFU and make it work or GTFO.

I mean... who can argue with that logic...

He's like Cdnavatar on steroids.

That kind of mental illness is honestly just sad... it's unfortunate these are the people benefiting off the backs of FOs making 60k.

You have suffered in the past to get where you are now, so should all juniors and suck it up?
Your pain in the past doesn't justify others' pain in the present.

When some of you had it worse back in the day, I bet you guys wished for a better contract for the juniors like you WERE one day.

Different vintage points DO change your perspectives eh?

[cdnavater]

I mean... who can argue with that logic...

He's like Cdnavatar on steroids.

That kind of mental illness is honestly just sad... it's unfortunate these are the people benefiting off the backs of FOs making 60k.

You have suffered in the past to get where you are now, so should all juniors and suck it up?
Your pain in the past doesn't justify others' pain in the present.

When some of you had it worse back in the day, I bet you guys wished for a better contract for the juniors like you WERE one day.

Different vintage points DO change your perspectives eh?

That’s a simple way to look at it, it’s more about the payoff for all the shit has paid off, I suppose if most of the money went to the bottom 5 years and nothing for the senior pilots would draw the same kind of response from the senior pilots.
They would be angry and all the junior pilots would tell them how good they already have it and just suck it up.

[thepoors]

That kind of mental illness is honestly just sad... it's unfortunate these are the people benefiting off the backs of FOs making 60k.

You have suffered in the past to get where you are now, so should all juniors and suck it up?
Your pain in the past doesn't justify others' pain in the present.

When some of you had it worse back in the day, I bet you guys wished for a better contract for the juniors like you WERE one day.

Different vintage points DO change your perspectives eh?

That’s a simple way to look at it, it’s more about the payoff for all the shit has paid off, I suppose if most of the money went to the bottom 5 years and nothing for the senior pilots would draw the same kind of response from the senior pilots.
They would be angry and all the junior pilots would tell them how good they already have it and just suck it up.

Except that scenario is the only one that's objectively true.

[cdnavater]

You have suffered in the past to get where you are now, so should all juniors and suck it up?
Your pain in the past doesn't justify others' pain in the present.

When some of you had it worse back in the day, I bet you guys wished for a better contract for the juniors like you WERE one day.

Different vintage points DO change your perspectives eh?

That’s a simple way to look at it, it’s more about the payoff for all the shit has paid off, I suppose if most of the money went to the bottom 5 years and nothing for the senior pilots would draw the same kind of response from the senior pilots.
They would be angry and all the junior pilots would tell them how good they already have it and just suck it up.

Except that scenario is the only one that's objectively true.

Be patient, someday you will have it all, will you share the wealth when your turn comes or will you say, I had to suffer so should you!