US Air Travel Down, Overall Air Travel Up.

[goingnowherefast]

Good points about the environment.

It's not going to be as expensive as claimed though. An electrified economy is cheaper and more reliable. No oil to forget to change in the pushback tug. Gas/diesel/kerosene prices are volatile and largely uncontrollable, affected by international politics and world events. Why would anyone want their economy tied to an energy source with such volatile cost and unreliable supply (just look what happened when Russia invaded Ukrane, and we're almost half a world away).

Canada has lots of uranium, and the biggest cost in nuclear power plants isn't even the uranium. Hydroelectric power is also plentiful in Canada. We're a prime candidate for an economy powered by cheap and reliable electricity. We just need to stop being afraid of change.

As an example, the Chinese economy is electrifying extremely fast, and leaving us in the dust. Does anyone think they would be moving that direction so rapidly if it wasn't in their best interest? I doubt the Chinese are electrifying because of green-washed, lib-tard virtue signaling. No, they're doing it because it makes economic sense. The side benefit for them and the rest of the world is significantly reduced carbon emissions and environmental protection.

[Tbayer2021]

What I disagree with is the approach. The jealousy of boomers is coming across as blame and anger. That doesn't solve the problem.

We probably wouldn't blame things on them if there wasn't a verifiable track record of them getting in the way to make things difficult, more expensive or outright impossible for millenials.

Take zoning for example. Who do you think makes up the vast majority of the opposition to densification bylaws? This has been a strong contributor to skyrocketing prices over the years. Boomers not wanting low rise densification projects in their neighbourhoods. Kicking the can down the road, making it someone else's problem, NIMBY. So many ways to describe the same greed.

Boomers aren't the majority anymore. They're slowly moving into retirement homes and dying. Now gen X, millennials and Gen Z control things. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. Rando internet strangers can't fix it. Bitching to boomers won't fix it. Your MP, MLA/MPP, and city councilors are the ones that actually change things.

Even if it is all their fault, instead of crying "oh victim me". Do something productive to fix it.

Who says we aren't? Just because we bitch about it here doesn't mean we're not taking steps in other areas of our lives. You are aware that people can do multiple things at the same time, right? Just like boomers fucked up the economy, politics, AND the environment.

[Tbayer2021]

You wouldn’t survive the ‘60s and ‘70s, that Generation wasn’t soft with a “poor me, life is so unfair” .

"I wonder who that could be" and look who popped up.

I called you weak, not soft. Soft would be a lesser insult.

Ah my friend…. I was there those decades, got the inside line I dare say. Life was unfair then believe me but I survived.

Music was great though… Joplin, Slick, Morrison, Garcia, Hendrix to mention a few. Working for 90c per hour part time on wknds during HS got me a few albums to play on the family stereo the “ silent generation “ paid for. I should be grateful I guess.

You missed out, you undoubtedly would have enjoyed the times.

I did miss out. I could have dropped out of high school and still had a great job that not only covered my necessities, but afforded quite a few luxuries at the same time. All on my single income if necessary.

[khedrei]

Oil and gas is, and will be necessary for the foreseeable future. Do you know how long it takes to build a nuclear power plant? Do you know how the peak demand is made up for when nuclear can't provide enough juice?

Canada is one of the worst places in the world to try and completely eliminate gas. Not sure where you get that nonsense from.

Go see how Germany is doing....

Energy isn't free. There will always be a cost.

[goldeneagle]

Oil and gas is, and will be necessary for the foreseeable future. Do you know how long it takes to build a nuclear power plant? Do you know how the peak demand is made up for when nuclear can't provide enough juice?

Canada is one of the worst places in the world to try and completely eliminate gas. Not sure where you get that nonsense from.

The beauty of hydro electric is that it can be spooled up and down on demand. Powerex (export division of BcHydro) has for years had a deal with the utility in Washington state. They run the nuclear plant above the required baseline, but below peak demand. they buy power from Powerex thru the day to meet peak demand. Overnight, BcHydro spools down turbines at the hydro installations, takes the surplus from the Washington nuclear plants to light up the lower mainland. Net power transfer by end of the year is close to zero, but, the dollar value of daytime power is much higher than overnight power, resulting in a significant dollar surplus.

If you have nuclear and hydro, it's an ideal combination, nuclear for the baseline, hydro to absorb the surges. Hydro turbines can be spooled up and online in a few minutes.

Then when you add intermittent sources into the mix, ie solar and wind, they dont need large grid scale storage either, that's the function of the hydro electric facilities, when the power is coming from intermittent sources, leave the water behind the dam at the hydro site.

Reality is, Canada is an ideal environment for eliminating gas entirely from the electric generating role. But one of the reasons it wont work well for most of the prairies, the folks out in Alberta have never properly interconnected the grid, even tho some of the lines are in place, they drop into substations not capable of handling the full line capacity.

[philaviate]

We probably wouldn't blame things on them if there wasn't a verifiable track record of them getting in the way to make things difficult, more expensive or outright impossible for millenials.

Take zoning for example. Who do you think makes up the vast majority of the opposition to densification bylaws? This has been a strong contributor to skyrocketing prices over the years. Boomers not wanting low rise densification projects in their neighbourhoods. Kicking the can down the road, making it someone else's problem, NIMBY. So many ways to describe the same greed.

Boomers aren't the majority anymore. They're slowly moving into retirement homes and dying. Now gen X, millennials and Gen Z control things. Squeaky wheel gets the grease. Rando internet strangers can't fix it. Bitching to boomers won't fix it. Your MP, MLA/MPP, and city councilors are the ones that actually change things.

Even if it is all their fault, instead of crying "oh victim me". Do something productive to fix it.

Reasonable points.

One area though never mentioned is how Boomers and Gen X left the next Generations a f*cking environmental and climate change mess that was a major part of our doing that is going to have to be addressed. It will be painful and exhausting,expensive to boot, the Earth is telling us it isn’t possible to continue like this. It’s like a maxed out credit card - you are not getting any more credit and you have to pay what you owe. Millennials, Gen Z and whatever the next lot want to call themselves are indeed right to be severely pissed on our poor climate change record - we f*cked you around.

You're not still seriously believing the climate change nonsense are you?
I guess you missed the memo, your Lord and saviour Bill Gates says it was all nonsense and everything is fine now.

I guess he has found a new fraud to grift from.

Or you can keep believing their drivel. I'm sure Greta will be right one of these days. Nothing throwing more taxes at won't fix though eh?


Funny how the billionaires pushing this fraud are the ones buying beach front properties and private jets.......

[khedrei]

Oil and gas is, and will be necessary for the foreseeable future. Do you know how long it takes to build a nuclear power plant? Do you know how the peak demand is made up for when nuclear can't provide enough juice?

Canada is one of the worst places in the world to try and completely eliminate gas. Not sure where you get that nonsense from.

The beauty of hydro electric is that it can be spooled up and down on demand. Powerex (export division of BcHydro) has for years had a deal with the utility in Washington state. They run the nuclear plant above the required baseline, but below peak demand. they buy power from Powerex thru the day to meet peak demand. Overnight, BcHydro spools down turbines at the hydro installations, takes the surplus from the Washington nuclear plants to light up the lower mainland. Net power transfer by end of the year is close to zero, but, the dollar value of daytime power is much higher than overnight power, resulting in a significant dollar surplus.

If you have nuclear and hydro, it's an ideal combination, nuclear for the baseline, hydro to absorb the surges. Hydro turbines can be spooled up and online in a few minutes.

Then when you add intermittent sources into the mix, ie solar and wind, they dont need large grid scale storage either, that's the function of the hydro electric facilities, when the power is coming from intermittent sources, leave the water behind the dam at the hydro site.

Reality is, Canada is an ideal environment for eliminating gas entirely from the electric generating role. But one of the reasons it wont work well for most of the prairies, the folks out in Alberta have never properly interconnected the grid, even tho some of the lines are in place, they drop into substations not capable of handling the full line capacity.

Ill say it again. Canada is one of the worst countries in the world to try and eliminate oil and gas. Its too big, and too cold to electrify the whole country.

Now if you wanted to close every city more than 100 miles from the US border, and maybe some strategic places around hydro dams like James Bay, then maybe youd have a case.

Otherwise, a fully electrified, gas free canada is nothing but a pipe dream in our lifetimes.

[Old fella]

"I wonder who that could be" and look who popped up.

I called you weak, not soft. Soft would be a lesser insult.

Ah my friend…. I was there those decades, got the inside line I dare say. Life was unfair then believe me but I survived.

Music was great though… Joplin, Slick, Morrison, Garcia, Hendrix to mention a few. Working for 90c per hour part time on wknds during HS got me a few albums to play on the family stereo the “ silent generation “ paid for. I should be grateful I guess.

You missed out, you undoubtedly would have enjoyed the times.

I did miss out. I could have dropped out of high school and still had a great job that not only covered my necessities, but afforded quite a few luxuries at the same time. All on my single income if necessary.

Jesus, you can be hard on the head. What’s dropping out of HS have to do with the ongoing musings.

[goingnowherefast]

Oil and gas is, and will be necessary for the foreseeable future. Do you know how long it takes to build a nuclear power plant? Do you know how the peak demand is made up for when nuclear can't provide enough juice?

Canada is one of the worst places in the world to try and completely eliminate gas. Not sure where you get that nonsense from.

The beauty of hydro electric is that it can be spooled up and down on demand. Powerex (export division of BcHydro) has for years had a deal with the utility in Washington state. They run the nuclear plant above the required baseline, but below peak demand. they buy power from Powerex thru the day to meet peak demand. Overnight, BcHydro spools down turbines at the hydro installations, takes the surplus from the Washington nuclear plants to light up the lower mainland. Net power transfer by end of the year is close to zero, but, the dollar value of daytime power is much higher than overnight power, resulting in a significant dollar surplus.

If you have nuclear and hydro, it's an ideal combination, nuclear for the baseline, hydro to absorb the surges. Hydro turbines can be spooled up and online in a few minutes.

Then when you add intermittent sources into the mix, ie solar and wind, they dont need large grid scale storage either, that's the function of the hydro electric facilities, when the power is coming from intermittent sources, leave the water behind the dam at the hydro site.

Reality is, Canada is an ideal environment for eliminating gas entirely from the electric generating role. But one of the reasons it wont work well for most of the prairies, the folks out in Alberta have never properly interconnected the grid, even tho some of the lines are in place, they drop into substations not capable of handling the full line capacity.

Ill say it again. Canada is one of the worst countries in the world to try and eliminate oil and gas. Its too big, and too cold to electrify the whole country.

Now if you wanted to close every city more than 100 miles from the US border, and maybe some strategic places around hydro dams like James Bay, then maybe youd have a case.

Otherwise, a fully electrified, gas free canada is nothing but a pipe dream in our lifetimes.

Fully electrified, no. Probably never. Natural gas peaker plants have a place in electrical generation. It's gonna be a long time, if ever, that we see electric long haul aircraft. 777 and A350s will be burning kerosene for a while.

We used to have coal fired steel plants. They're largely electric now. Just because we can't expect to be 100% electric economy, doesn't mean we should give up, and not even try. With that attitude, maybe we should still be back in the age of sail, or maybe coal powered steam engines. We need to exploit what makes sense with the technology available, and technology keeps improving. Today, that's largely electric. China is better at it than us. Their economy is leaving us behind because of it, and I hope we can catch up.

[philaviate]

The beauty of hydro electric is that it can be spooled up and down on demand. Powerex (export division of BcHydro) has for years had a deal with the utility in Washington state. They run the nuclear plant above the required baseline, but below peak demand. they buy power from Powerex thru the day to meet peak demand. Overnight, BcHydro spools down turbines at the hydro installations, takes the surplus from the Washington nuclear plants to light up the lower mainland. Net power transfer by end of the year is close to zero, but, the dollar value of daytime power is much higher than overnight power, resulting in a significant dollar surplus.

If you have nuclear and hydro, it's an ideal combination, nuclear for the baseline, hydro to absorb the surges. Hydro turbines can be spooled up and online in a few minutes.

Then when you add intermittent sources into the mix, ie solar and wind, they dont need large grid scale storage either, that's the function of the hydro electric facilities, when the power is coming from intermittent sources, leave the water behind the dam at the hydro site.

Reality is, Canada is an ideal environment for eliminating gas entirely from the electric generating role. But one of the reasons it wont work well for most of the prairies, the folks out in Alberta have never properly interconnected the grid, even tho some of the lines are in place, they drop into substations not capable of handling the full line capacity.

Ill say it again. Canada is one of the worst countries in the world to try and eliminate oil and gas. Its too big, and too cold to electrify the whole country.

Now if you wanted to close every city more than 100 miles from the US border, and maybe some strategic places around hydro dams like James Bay, then maybe youd have a case.

Otherwise, a fully electrified, gas free canada is nothing but a pipe dream in our lifetimes.

Fully electrified, no. Probably never. Natural gas peaker plants have a place in electrical generation. It's gonna be a long time, if ever, that we see electric long haul aircraft. 777 and A350s will be burning kerosene for a while.

We used to have coal fired steel plants. They're largely electric now. Just because we can't expect to be 100% electric economy, doesn't mean we should give up, and not even try. With that attitude, maybe we should still be back in the age of sail, or maybe coal powered steam engines. We need to exploit what makes sense with the technology available, and technology keeps improving. Today, that's largely electric. China is better at it than us. Their economy is leaving us behind because of it, and I hope we can catch up.

China is facing a total societal and economic collapse in our lifetime. It is demographic certainty at this point.
Their efforts to kick the can down the road don't hold up to real scrutiny.
What is powering China's electrical grid, it isn't sunshine and rainbows. It's dirty great coal plants.

Just like here, where our GDP is fabricated by using things such as population increase and false real estate bubbles as measures of wealth.

Simple physics on energy density show that for many applications electric will never be the way. You can't fit 5 gallons of power in a 2 pint mug.

[khedrei]

Ill say it again. Canada is one of the worst countries in the world to try and eliminate oil and gas. Its too big, and too cold to electrify the whole country.

Now if you wanted to close every city more than 100 miles from the US border, and maybe some strategic places around hydro dams like James Bay, then maybe youd have a case.

Otherwise, a fully electrified, gas free canada is nothing but a pipe dream in our lifetimes.

Fully electrified, no. Probably never. Natural gas peaker plants have a place in electrical generation. It's gonna be a long time, if ever, that we see electric long haul aircraft. 777 and A350s will be burning kerosene for a while.

We used to have coal fired steel plants. They're largely electric now. Just because we can't expect to be 100% electric economy, doesn't mean we should give up, and not even try. With that attitude, maybe we should still be back in the age of sail, or maybe coal powered steam engines. We need to exploit what makes sense with the technology available, and technology keeps improving. Today, that's largely electric. China is better at it than us. Their economy is leaving us behind because of it, and I hope we can catch up.

China is facing a total societal and economic collapse in our lifetime. It is demographic certainty at this point.
Their efforts to kick the can down the road don't hold up to real scrutiny.
What is powering China's electrical grid, it isn't sunshine and rainbows. It's dirty great coal plants.

Just like here, where our GDP is fabricated by using things such as population increase and false real estate bubbles as measures of wealth.

Simple physics on energy density show that for many applications electric will never be the way. You can't fit 5 gallons of power in a 2 pint mug.

This is correct. China's electricity is generated by a whole lot of coal. Just because there is no tail pipe doesnt mean its not dirty. I dont know the real numbers, but aren't they opening several new coal plants every year?

I got news for you about our liberal economy. Every other rich nations in the world is leaving our economy in the dust. Its not just China. We are one of the worst in the rich world. You can thank JT for that.

[mantogasrsrwy]

Fully electrified, no. Probably never. Natural gas peaker plants have a place in electrical generation. It's gonna be a long time, if ever, that we see electric long haul aircraft. 777 and A350s will be burning kerosene for a while.

We used to have coal fired steel plants. They're largely electric now. Just because we can't expect to be 100% electric economy, doesn't mean we should give up, and not even try. With that attitude, maybe we should still be back in the age of sail, or maybe coal powered steam engines. We need to exploit what makes sense with the technology available, and technology keeps improving. Today, that's largely electric. China is better at it than us. Their economy is leaving us behind because of it, and I hope we can catch up.

China is facing a total societal and economic collapse in our lifetime. It is demographic certainty at this point.
Their efforts to kick the can down the road don't hold up to real scrutiny.
What is powering China's electrical grid, it isn't sunshine and rainbows. It's dirty great coal plants.

Just like here, where our GDP is fabricated by using things such as population increase and false real estate bubbles as measures of wealth.

Simple physics on energy density show that for many applications electric will never be the way. You can't fit 5 gallons of power in a 2 pint mug.

This is correct. China's electricity is generated by a whole lot of coal. Just because there is no tail pipe doesnt mean its not dirty. I dont know the real numbers, but aren't they opening several new coal plants every year?

I got news for you about our liberal economy. Every other rich nations in the world is leaving our economy in the dust. Its not just China. We are one of the worst in the rich world. You can thank JT for that.

Several is a massive understatement. Almost 2 a week. https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-cons ... h-in-2024/

[khedrei]

China is facing a total societal and economic collapse in our lifetime. It is demographic certainty at this point.
Their efforts to kick the can down the road don't hold up to real scrutiny.
What is powering China's electrical grid, it isn't sunshine and rainbows. It's dirty great coal plants.

Just like here, where our GDP is fabricated by using things such as population increase and false real estate bubbles as measures of wealth.

Simple physics on energy density show that for many applications electric will never be the way. You can't fit 5 gallons of power in a 2 pint mug.

This is correct. China's electricity is generated by a whole lot of coal. Just because there is no tail pipe doesnt mean its not dirty. I dont know the real numbers, but aren't they opening several new coal plants every year?

I got news for you about our liberal economy. Every other rich nations in the world is leaving our economy in the dust. Its not just China. We are one of the worst in the rich world. You can thank JT for that.

Several is a massive understatement. Almost 2 a week. https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-cons ... h-in-2024/

Well... kinda my point. Thanks for that.

[goingnowherefast]

This is correct. China's electricity is generated by a whole lot of coal. Just because there is no tail pipe doesnt mean its not dirty. I dont know the real numbers, but aren't they opening several new coal plants every year?

I got news for you about our liberal economy. Every other rich nations in the world is leaving our economy in the dust. Its not just China. We are one of the worst in the rich world. You can thank JT for that.

Several is a massive understatement. Almost 2 a week. https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-cons ... h-in-2024/

Well... kinda my point. Thanks for that.

Well, the exact opposite actually.

They're also installing more solar than everyone else in the world combined.
https://www.spglobal.com/energy/en/news ... hydro-wind

China has about half the world's solar generating capacity, most of it added very recently.

They've built 94GW of coal power in 2024 (article posted by mantogasrsrwy) compared to 277 GW of solar and 79 GW of wind. That's almost 4x more renewable construction compared to coal construction. Where does that tell you the Chinese electrical generation expansion priority lies?

Yes, our economy is falling behind, everyone seems to agree there. The economies whose who are invested in electricity are doing better than ours. So shouldn't we do what seems to be working and copy the winners?

[philaviate]

Several is a massive understatement. Almost 2 a week. https://www.carbonbrief.org/chinas-cons ... h-in-2024/

Well... kinda my point. Thanks for that.

Well, the exact opposite actually.

They're also installing more solar than everyone else in the world combined.
https://www.spglobal.com/energy/en/news ... hydro-wind

China has about half the world's solar generating capacity, most of it added very recently.

They've built 94GW of coal power in 2024 (article posted by mantogasrsrwy) compared to 277 GW of solar and 79 GW of wind. That's almost 4x more renewable construction compared to coal construction. Where does that tell you the Chinese electrical generation expansion priority lies?

Yes, our economy is falling behind, everyone seems to agree there. The economies whose who are invested in electricity are doing better than ours. So shouldn't we do what seems to be working and copy the winners?

Do those solar schemes even break even, both economically and environmentally? Or is it just more of China kicking the problem further down the road while simultaneously digging themselves into a deeper hole for short term gain?

As for economies doing well on electric. I take it you haven't heard of Europe? Or is their complete failure from industry to household energy costs a good example?

If solar etc was the best option we wouldn't need government to force it's adoption. The fact it only works with subsidies or putative measures against alternatives means it isn't the best choice. A free market will naturally choose the best.

[goingnowherefast]

Well... kinda my point. Thanks for that.

Well, the exact opposite actually.

They're also installing more solar than everyone else in the world combined.
https://www.spglobal.com/energy/en/news ... hydro-wind

China has about half the world's solar generating capacity, most of it added very recently.

They've built 94GW of coal power in 2024 (article posted by mantogasrsrwy) compared to 277 GW of solar and 79 GW of wind. That's almost 4x more renewable construction compared to coal construction. Where does that tell you the Chinese electrical generation expansion priority lies?

Yes, our economy is falling behind, everyone seems to agree there. The economies whose who are invested in electricity are doing better than ours. So shouldn't we do what seems to be working and copy the winners?

Do those solar schemes even break even, both economically and environmentally? Or is it just more of China kicking the problem further down the road while simultaneously digging themselves into a deeper hole for short term gain?

As for economies doing well on electric. I take it you haven't heard of Europe? Or is their complete failure from industry to household energy costs a good example?

If solar etc was the best option we wouldn't need government to force it's adoption. The fact it only works with subsidies or putative measures against alternatives means it isn't the best choice. A free market will naturally choose the best.

China DGAF, they want cheap power now, and lots of it. They're building every and all generating capacity they can. From solar to coal, although evidently preferring solar. They don't have to deal with politics and virtue signaling. They build what, when they want it and where they want it.

Also, FYI, government has always encouraged new technology. That's why there's so much government money spent on research. It's why we have a space program. With electrification, we're at the industry adoption phase, not the research phase. So the money is being spent to encourage adoption. Governments nudge their economies in the direction that keeps them competitive globally.

Our government is subsidizing oil and gas too. It's why they own a pipeline. We have oil/gas, the world still needs it for the foreseeable future. Why wouldn't our government help industry get it to the world market?

[philaviate]

Well, the exact opposite actually.

They're also installing more solar than everyone else in the world combined.
https://www.spglobal.com/energy/en/news ... hydro-wind

China has about half the world's solar generating capacity, most of it added very recently.

They've built 94GW of coal power in 2024 (article posted by mantogasrsrwy) compared to 277 GW of solar and 79 GW of wind. That's almost 4x more renewable construction compared to coal construction. Where does that tell you the Chinese electrical generation expansion priority lies?

Yes, our economy is falling behind, everyone seems to agree there. The economies whose who are invested in electricity are doing better than ours. So shouldn't we do what seems to be working and copy the winners?

Do those solar schemes even break even, both economically and environmentally? Or is it just more of China kicking the problem further down the road while simultaneously digging themselves into a deeper hole for short term gain?

As for economies doing well on electric. I take it you haven't heard of Europe? Or is their complete failure from industry to household energy costs a good example?

If solar etc was the best option we wouldn't need government to force it's adoption. The fact it only works with subsidies or putative measures against alternatives means it isn't the best choice. A free market will naturally choose the best.

China DGAF, they want cheap power now, and lots of it. They're building every and all generating capacity they can. From solar to coal, although evidently preferring solar. They don't have to deal with politics and virtue signaling. They build what, when they want it and where they want it.

Also, FYI, government has always encouraged new technology. That's why there's so much government money spent on research. It's why we have a space program. With electrification, we're at the industry adoption phase, not the research phase. So the money is being spent to encourage adoption. Governments nudge their economies in the direction that keeps them competitive globally.

Our government is subsidizing oil and gas too. It's why they own a pipeline. We have oil/gas, the world still needs it for the foreseeable future. Why wouldn't our government help industry get it to the world market?

Exactly. China doesn't care, they're doing it for short term gain.

But we do care. And anyone who can do basic math can see long term the numbers don't add up.

And there's a difference between government help and government over regulation. In that regard Canada is world leader in what not to do.

[goingnowherefast]

That doesn't make much sense. Solar's operating costs are very low. Setting up the panels is the expensive part. Gotta leave them there for the long term. Coal is the opposite. Cheap to build. Expensive to operate. Train loads of coal in. Train loads of toxic ash out. Meanwhile solar is sitting there, making power with no trains at all.

[khedrei]

Well, the exact opposite actually.

They're also installing more solar than everyone else in the world combined.
https://www.spglobal.com/energy/en/news ... hydro-wind

China has about half the world's solar generating capacity, most of it added very recently.

They've built 94GW of coal power in 2024 (article posted by mantogasrsrwy) compared to 277 GW of solar and 79 GW of wind. That's almost 4x more renewable construction compared to coal construction. Where does that tell you the Chinese electrical generation expansion priority lies?

Yes, our economy is falling behind, everyone seems to agree there. The economies whose who are invested in electricity are doing better than ours. So shouldn't we do what seems to be working and copy the winners?

Do those solar schemes even break even, both economically and environmentally? Or is it just more of China kicking the problem further down the road while simultaneously digging themselves into a deeper hole for short term gain?

As for economies doing well on electric. I take it you haven't heard of Europe? Or is their complete failure from industry to household energy costs a good example?

If solar etc was the best option we wouldn't need government to force it's adoption. The fact it only works with subsidies or putative measures against alternatives means it isn't the best choice. A free market will naturally choose the best.

Our government is subsidizing oil and gas too. It's why they own a pipeline. We have oil/gas, the world still needs it for the foreseeable future. Why wouldn't our government help industry get it to the world market?

Do I need to answer that? Because our governent is stupid. And so are most of the people who voted for it.

Solar is generally a net loss. The environmental impact of making the panels, and how long they last is a net loss, possibly break even at best.

Correlation isn't causation. Just because a strong economy electrified doesnt mean thats why they are doing well. The US is doing well, and they didnt. So maybe we should do what they are doing.

Come up with some evidence that it will help our economy, not pipe dream fantasies.

As phil said, the free market will determine where we go. Once it becomes cost effective to electrify, we will do it. And not a minute sooner. Being forced to do it by government will only end badly. It does everytime.

[goingnowherefast]

Correlation isn't causation. Just because a strong economy electrified doesnt mean thats why they are doing well. The US is doing well, and they didnt. So maybe we should do what they are doing.

Of all the major economies, the US is doing the least good. I'll let you research stock market performance of NYSE vs DAX vs Hang Seng vs Neikkei. Hell, even the TSX index is leaps and bounds better than the NYSE index (YTD is 27% vs 14%). Our stock market, with the economy doing seemingly poorly is doing almost double the US.

Khedrei, one can't just make up false statistics to support their narrative. Do some research, Google isn't hard to use.

[thepoors]

Correlation isn't causation. Just because a strong economy electrified doesnt mean thats why they are doing well. The US is doing well, and they didnt. So maybe we should do what they are doing.

Of all the major economies, the US is doing the least good. I'll let you research stock market performance of NYSE vs DAX vs Hang Seng vs Neikkei. Hell, even the TSX index is leaps and bounds better than the NYSE index (YTD is 27% vs 14%). Our stock market, with the economy doing seemingly poorly is doing almost double the US.

Khedrei, one can't just make up false statistics to support their narrative. Do some research, Google isn't hard to use.

You understand that the stock market doing well while the economy suffers is a big red flag right? It signifies the elites are getting richer while the poors (ha!) are struggling. The TSX ripping while people can't afford groceries ain't good.

What would make Canada a serious country again that prioritized it's citizens is massive investment in resource extraction and refining. Throw out all the virtue signaling, climate alarmist crap and use our resource wealth to make us a rich country again. Then use that money instead of taxing people to death. Of course that's nothing but a pipe dream.

[khedrei]

Correlation isn't causation. Just because a strong economy electrified doesnt mean thats why they are doing well. The US is doing well, and they didnt. So maybe we should do what they are doing.

Of all the major economies, the US is doing the least good. I'll let you research stock market performance of NYSE vs DAX vs Hang Seng vs Neikkei. Hell, even the TSX index is leaps and bounds better than the NYSE index (YTD is 27% vs 14%). Our stock market, with the economy doing seemingly poorly is doing almost double the US.

Khedrei, one can't just make up false statistics to support their narrative. Do some research, Google isn't hard to use.

As poors pointed out, stock market isn't the economy. Its the stock market. Only a small % of the population is actively invested in it.

The US is about in the middle for REAL GDP growth per capita of the 38 OECD nations. They are also near the highest of per capita purchasing power. Canada on the other hand is dead last in REAL GDP growth per capita. The average person in the richest province in canada is poorer than in the poorest state in the US.

What was that about making up facts and using Google....?

Also, measuring the most ridiculous bubble year on the stock market in recent history and then making a determination of a country's economy based on the % growth YTD is a rediculous idea. It shows how little you know about this subject. Keep reading headlines from the guardian though...

[goingnowherefast]

Your credibility is in the toilet, and you're still not providing sources for your absurd claims.

Take your GDP per capita stats, then remove the top 5% (wealthy elites) . It doesn't look so good anymore, eh? Most of the US "growth" is isolated to the wealthy elite, not the poors or even middle class.

Once you do that, post the sources please.

Stock market isn't the only indicator of how an economy is doing, but it is part of the puzzle that can't be ignored.

[philaviate]

Your credibility is in the toilet, and you're still not providing sources for your absurd claims.

Take your GDP per capita stats, then remove the top 5% (wealthy elites) . It doesn't look so good anymore, eh? Most of the US "growth" is isolated to the wealthy elite, not the poors or even middle class.

Once you do that, post the sources please.

Stock market isn't the only indicator of how an economy is doing, but it is part of the puzzle that can't be ignored.

What cannot be ignored is, by any measurable fact, Canada is in the toilet and on track for a total economic collapse.

But I'm sure importing 5 million more skip the dishes drivers will fix it this time.....

[thepoors]

Take your GDP per capita stats, then remove the top 5% (wealthy elites) . It doesn't look so good anymore, eh? Most of the US "growth" is isolated to the wealthy elite, not the poors or even middle class.

Are you for real? Do the same thing for Canada then - what's the result? How oblivious can you be?

You don't even need to tell me that you were one of the idiots who had selective amnesia of the last 10 years and voted liberal to STICK IT TO TRUMP! How brave.