The TA

[TFTMB heavy]

Wow my mousing hand is cramping from having to delete so many posts.

Let's try to keep things on-topic, shall we? I kept any post that remotely had some information regarding the actual topic. I'll keep an eye on this thread and on the Transat forum for a little while; people who can't play nice will be removed.

I started a new one that hopefully stays on topic and polite.

[Fanblade]

Back to the scheduled program. Roadshows conducted in YUL and YYZ, good turn outs, and clarification on a few things. Good to see the graphs where we stand compared to AC and WJ. We are closer to AC, but given we work less to get that is a big win. And with WJ next up to negotiate, they can improve on what our union managed to get, which by the sounds of it was not easy and a hard fought battle to the end, so once again, a huge thanks and congratulations to the negots committee and MEC.

And if those who think we sold out FOs, if thats the case we will only see this pass with 60-70% or less or even a NO. I imagine it'll be a lot more that vote YES, which will tell you what those FOs really think.

First off congratulations on the new TA. Second off, thank you for for helping to set new high water marks with aspects of your contract. It will benefit us all.

As for wages at the bottom of the pay scale. Our scales are unique because of how steep they are. This is an issue that every pilot bargaining group struggles with. A pilot can spend 20 plus years at the top scale but only 1 year at year one. Moving money down the pay scale reduces everyone’s career earnings including the pilot at year 1 you moved the money too.

It’s simply the math. Move the money down the scale everyone’s career earnings including pension drops. Move money up the scale, career earnings and pension go up.

For those who want to jump in and yell. Yeah but what about the time value of money! ALPA EF&A are actuarial pros. They got it figured out.

With this knowledge the discussion should become one of balance. Obviously people need to survive.

What is a proper balanced approach to our pay scales keeping in mind every dollar moved down the scale means less career earnings for everyone?

Another way to put this. If Transat management came back to the pilots and said. You know what we didn’t give you enough money. Here is another 100 million I know you would probably dial 911 out of concern someone had a stroke.

Just for the mental exercise. Where would you put this new found money?

[khedrei]

Back to the scheduled program. Roadshows conducted in YUL and YYZ, good turn outs, and clarification on a few things. Good to see the graphs where we stand compared to AC and WJ. We are closer to AC, but given we work less to get that is a big win. And with WJ next up to negotiate, they can improve on what our union managed to get, which by the sounds of it was not easy and a hard fought battle to the end, so once again, a huge thanks and congratulations to the negots committee and MEC.

And if those who think we sold out FOs, if thats the case we will only see this pass with 60-70% or less or even a NO. I imagine it'll be a lot more that vote YES, which will tell you what those FOs really think.

First off congratulations on the new TA. Second off, thank you for for helping to set new high water marks with aspects of your contract. It will benefit us all.

As for wages at the bottom of the pay scale. Our scales are unique because of how steep they are. This is an issue that every pilot bargaining group struggles with. A pilot can spend 20 plus years at the top scale but only 1 year at year one. Moving money down the pay scale reduces everyone’s career earnings including the pilot at year 1 you moved the money too.

It’s simply the math. Move the money down the scale everyone’s career earnings including pension drops. Move money up the scale, career earnings and pension go up.

For those who want to jump in and yell. Yeah but what about the time value of money! ALPA EF&A are actuarial pros. They got it figured out.

With this knowledge the discussion should become one of balance. Obviously people need to survive.

What is a proper balanced approach to our pay scales keeping in mind every dollar moved down the scale means less career earnings for everyone?

Another way to put this. If Transat management came back to the pilots and said. You know what we didn’t give you enough money. Here is another 100 million I know you would probably dial 911 out of concern someone had a stroke.

Just for the mental exercise. Where would you put this new found money?

Easy, once year 1 makes about 130k (which is what will allow you to live a decent life in yyz or yul or yvr) then put the rest of the 100 mill wherever you want. A pilot at any 705 in canada shouldn't be sinking further into debt every month or having to drive Uber on the side. Period.

[TheStig]

Same post 800 times now, despite the efforts of multiple posters.

Also, i could pretty much guarantee that the starting salaries would absolutely be enough for everyone if they they were in the range of 130-150k. I bet youd have almost no complaints. Interestingly enough, that would still be a smaller raise than the 777 captain with 3 ex wife's already making 300k got....

Does anyone want to tell him 300K is what 220 Captains earn not triple Captains..

Congrats on the new TA.

[khedrei]

Same post 800 times now, despite the efforts of multiple posters.

Also, i could pretty much guarantee that the starting salaries would absolutely be enough for everyone if they they were in the range of 130-150k. I bet youd have almost no complaints. Interestingly enough, that would still be a smaller raise than the 777 captain with 3 ex wife's already making 300k got....

Does anyone want to tell him 300K is what 220 Captains earn not triple Captains..

Congrats on the new TA.

Thanks for making my point for me

And i was talking about what they used to make on the old scale. Thats why I said "already making"

[Fanblade]

Back to the scheduled program. Roadshows conducted in YUL and YYZ, good turn outs, and clarification on a few things. Good to see the graphs where we stand compared to AC and WJ. We are closer to AC, but given we work less to get that is a big win. And with WJ next up to negotiate, they can improve on what our union managed to get, which by the sounds of it was not easy and a hard fought battle to the end, so once again, a huge thanks and congratulations to the negots committee and MEC.

And if those who think we sold out FOs, if thats the case we will only see this pass with 60-70% or less or even a NO. I imagine it'll be a lot more that vote YES, which will tell you what those FOs really think.

First off congratulations on the new TA. Second off, thank you for for helping to set new high water marks with aspects of your contract. It will benefit us all.

As for wages at the bottom of the pay scale. Our scales are unique because of how steep they are. This is an issue that every pilot bargaining group struggles with. A pilot can spend 20 plus years at the top scale but only 1 year at year one. Moving money down the pay scale reduces everyone’s career earnings including the pilot at year 1 you moved the money too.

It’s simply the math. Move the money down the scale everyone’s career earnings including pension drops. Move money up the scale, career earnings and pension go up.

For those who want to jump in and yell. Yeah but what about the time value of money! ALPA EF&A are actuarial pros. They got it figured out.

With this knowledge the discussion should become one of balance. Obviously people need to survive.

What is a proper balanced approach to our pay scales keeping in mind every dollar moved down the scale means less career earnings for everyone?

Another way to put this. If Transat management came back to the pilots and said. You know what we didn’t give you enough money. Here is another 100 million I know you would probably dial 911 out of concern someone had a stroke.

Just for the mental exercise. Where would you put this new found money?

Easy, once year 1 makes about 130k (which is what will allow you to live a decent life in yyz or yul or yvr) then put the rest of the 100 mill wherever you want. A pilot at any 705 in canada shouldn't be sinking further into debt every month or having to drive Uber on the side. Period.

I think you just hit the nail on the head.

Set a realistic minimum at year 1 and then let the actuaries do the rest.

[thepoors]

You guys have really short memories because a large portion of the World Class Farce messaging was "we're getting rid of flat pay." And then that got rug pulled like most other things ALPA promised.

If you eliminate flat pay then all of this goes away. It's so simple. All the junior/senior animosity, all the divisive rhetoric, all the cynicism and disillusionment with ALPA. People just want to be able to live their lives while working at AC. Why is that a contentious topic? Why should anyone have to take a step down or backwards in pay when coming to AC? It's ludicrous.

ALPA leadership would do themselves a great service in recognizing this and how much stronger and unified we would be as a group if you didn't have one third of the pilot group struggling to pay their bills.

[TFTMB heavy]

The big problem with starting pay in my opinion is that there’s no recognition in the different levels of experience upon hiring. At TS for example they’re doing a cadet program now. Same pay for the cadet and a 5000 hour pilot.

If one was able to jump up a few levels on the scale when they start, based on their experience, then the starting salary becomes less relevant and the company pays for what they get.

[thepoors]

The big problem with starting pay in my opinion is that there’s no recognition in the different levels of experience upon hiring. At TS for example they’re doing a cadet program now. Same pay for the cadet and a 5000 hour pilot.

If one was able to jump up a few levels on the scale when they start, based on their experience, then the starting salary becomes less relevant and the company pays for what they get.

Why should a cadet make less than someone with 5000hrs if they pass all the same training and operate the same equipment? You're suggesting penalizing someone for what reason exactly? Not enough dues paid?

This is the kind of terrible take that company management would love to exploit. Stop devaluing the profession.

[cdnavater]

The big problem with starting pay in my opinion is that there’s no recognition in the different levels of experience upon hiring. At TS for example they’re doing a cadet program now. Same pay for the cadet and a 5000 hour pilot.

If one was able to jump up a few levels on the scale when they start, based on their experience, then the starting salary becomes less relevant and the company pays for what they get.

I do wonder why this hasn’t been negotiated, I’m guessing it has to do with the union beliefs that attracting pilots is a company problem so not wasting bargaining capital on it.
I have said this for years and years, every 1000 of PIC should get you one step up on the pay scale!
I worked for a company years ago up north that did this, it was a raise of the basic salary of 500/month for every 500 multic PIC. I believe it was 1500/month plus mileage starting with 1000 total time, so if you showed up with 1500 TT and 500 multi pic, 2000 plus, etc.
Part of the problem as I see it is implementation, would you go retroactive for the pilots who did have time when they arrived, would you just place them on the scale where they should have been.
The other problem is the company buy in, if they are not having issues with cadets, they won’t see the need to fix it!

[cdnavater]

The big problem with starting pay in my opinion is that there’s no recognition in the different levels of experience upon hiring. At TS for example they’re doing a cadet program now. Same pay for the cadet and a 5000 hour pilot.

If one was able to jump up a few levels on the scale when they start, based on their experience, then the starting salary becomes less relevant and the company pays for what they get.

Why should a cadet make less than someone with 5000hrs if they pass all the same training and operate the same equipment? You're suggesting penalizing someone for what reason exactly? Not enough dues paid?

This is the kind of terrible take that company management would love to exploit. Stop devaluing the profession.

Clearly coming from someone who started as a cadet!
Not penalized, they start at the starting pay, rewarding experience is more appropriate, why shouldn’t a pilot with 5000 hours who obviously has at least 5-6 years experience start at year 5 or 6 when the get to the airlines.
Let’s be real here, the reason the cadet program exists is because the company can’t attract experienced pilots willing to work for the current starting wages, exactly why Porter had to up the pay to attract enough experienced pilots for their big expansion plans.
You have made a reference to Porter as the shining example, there is a reason that there was an ALPA drive and hint, it’s not because they were the best QOL operation, they really only had the best pay, the rest was not great from any who I’ve talked to.
The other problem, keeping pay suppressed is the pilot justification of if I don’t accept this job someone will, so I’ll just do it and the whine about on a web board!
Also, passing the same training is NOT the same thing as bringing experience to the flight deck, as a training pilot who see both, I can tell you I who I would rather have beside me.
I have heard many line pilots describe the situation as basically flying single pilot some days!

[thepoors]

Clearly coming from someone who started as a cadet!

Actually I came from the left seat of a jet, so this would greatly benefit me. I still think it's a bad idea. But I already know you're all for throwing your junior colleagues under the bus.

Not penalized, they start at the starting pay, rewarding experience is more appropriate, why shouldn’t a pilot with 5000 hours who obviously has at least 5-6 years experience start at year 5 or 6 when the get to the airlines.
Let’s be real here, the reason the cadet program exists is because the company can’t attract experienced pilots willing to work for the current starting wages, exactly why Porter had to up the pay to attract enough experienced pilots for their big expansion plans.
You have made a reference to Porter as the shining example, there is a reason that there was an ALPA drive and hint, it’s not because they were the best QOL operation, they really only had the best pay, the rest was not great from any who I’ve talked to.
The other problem, keeping pay suppressed is the pilot justification of if I don’t accept this job someone will, so I’ll just do it and the whine about on a web board!

You're making my point for me. They can't attract experienced candidates because the pay is too low. It's pay suppression, plain and simple. It's giving the company justification for having starting wages that are artificially low.

Also, passing the same training is NOT the same thing as bringing experience to the flight deck, as a training pilot who see both, I can tell you I who I would rather have beside me.
I have heard many line pilots describe the situation as basically flying single pilot some days!

Hours also doesn't equal experience. Who would you rather sit next to, someone with 4000hrs instructing in a 172 or someone with 1500hrs in a turboprop up north?

If CAs at Jazz feel like they're flying single pilot that's a training department issue.

[Bede]

Easy, once year 1 makes about 130k (which is what will allow you to live a decent life in yyz or yul or yvr) then put the rest of the 100 mill wherever you want. A pilot at any 705 in canada shouldn't be sinking further into debt every month or having to drive Uber on the side. Period.

Your idea of flattening the pay scales has merit and I'd be inclined to support it.

The typical argument against it is that you spend more time at the top scales than the bottom so your lifetime earnings are greater with the status quo. On the flip side, flattening the pay scale as you suggest would allow younger pilots to have surplus income, hopefully investing/saving it. Getting a start in your career with an extra, say, $20k/year would make up for the lack of earnings at the higher end.

The major political problem with the proposal is convincing senior pilots, who didn't have the benefit of high entry level earnings from accepting less then they could under the status quo.

[cdnavater]

Clearly coming from someone who started as a cadet!

Actually I came from the left seat of a jet, so this would greatly benefit me. I still think it's a bad idea. But I already know you're all for throwing your junior colleagues under the bus.

Not penalized, they start at the starting pay, rewarding experience is more appropriate, why shouldn’t a pilot with 5000 hours who obviously has at least 5-6 years experience start at year 5 or 6 when the get to the airlines.
Let’s be real here, the reason the cadet program exists is because the company can’t attract experienced pilots willing to work for the current starting wages, exactly why Porter had to up the pay to attract enough experienced pilots for their big expansion plans.
You have made a reference to Porter as the shining example, there is a reason that there was an ALPA drive and hint, it’s not because they were the best QOL operation, they really only had the best pay, the rest was not great from any who I’ve talked to.
The other problem, keeping pay suppressed is the pilot justification of if I don’t accept this job someone will, so I’ll just do it and the whine about on a web board!

You're making my point for me. They can't attract experienced candidates because the pay is too low. It's pay suppression, plain and simple. It's giving the company justification for having starting wages that are artificially low.

Also, passing the same training is NOT the same thing as bringing experience to the flight deck, as a training pilot who see both, I can tell you I who I would rather have beside me.
I have heard many line pilots describe the situation as basically flying single pilot some days!

Hours also doesn't equal experience. Who would you rather sit next to, someone with 4000hrs instructing in a 172 or someone with 1500hrs in a turboprop up north?

If CAs at Jazz feel like they're flying single pilot that's a training department issue.

I don’t think I’m making the point you think I’m making, a fresh out of school cadet will take the job every time and then complain about the pay, the experienced pilots will go elsewhere if there are options, if no options they’ll take the job too!
As for the training department, we talk about the fact that anyone can pass a PPC on a good day but almost certainly on the third try, it’s out on the line where you see the difference between experience and no experience, they get overwhelmed much easier.
And yes hours do exactly mean experience, to answer your question, I would rather have the 1500 hours up north over the 4000 instructor, now we are talking about different experience but we are not getting 1500 pilots from up north, we are getting 5-700 hours instructors.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Clearly coming from someone who started as a cadet!

Hours also doesn't equal experience. Who would you rather sit next to, someone with 4000hrs instructing in a 172 or someone with 1500hrs in a turboprop up north?

There are zero instructors applying at airlines with 4000 hours. They all get jobs at a thousand or 1500.

[Fanblade]

The major political problem with the proposal is convincing senior pilots, who didn't have the benefit of high entry level earnings from accepting less then they could under the status quo.

That is true. However you have a bigger problem than that. You need to convince everyone, including the new hire, to lower their career and pension income.

Steeper scales increase career income and pension. There is no disputing it. It’s simply fact. It’s just the math, and no, time value of money doesn’t overcome the logic.

The steep scales are there for a reason. Not by accident and not out of senior pilot greed. They are deliberate. It originates from the hey days of unionism and craddle to grave thinking. It doesn't apply as much anymore because people generally don't stay with one employer for life. The exception to this are pilots.

As I said above, once you understand this, the discussion should logically turn toward balance. In other words should we be setting a realistic floor to the practice.

Undoing the practice altogether is shooting yourself in the foot.

[Jean-Luc Monette]

98% participation, 91% in favor.

https://www.newswire.ca/news-releases/n ... 41445.html

[330heavy]

Congratulations and thanks to the reps, volunteers and membership who made this happen. While not perfect, it's a step forward and the modern contract we seeked. Wish the best for Porter, Canadian North, WestJet, Flair, and AC whose contracts are coming up in the next few years, and that there was somthing in our contract that will help you and to pattern off of.