Who Wants to Fly WJ

[Blackdog0301]

This is the most antiquated airline I've ever worked for. The regional airline I worked for in the early 2000s had better IT services. JDE and Rain Maker (should be Day Force). Wings, Trim, Flica, and WS Crew View for scheduling. Old SOPs and long checklist. Making manual altitude callouts on approach instead of automated.

This is what happens when you rarely change flight ops management staff.

We get it, you miss Sunwing... A lot of people miss WS pre-merger too...

Just like the "better dead than red crowd".

Time to move on, it's over.

Don't defend the lack of progress at WestJet. This company has no direction.

You must be such a joy to fly with. Why do you continue working for a company that makes you so sour? You can leave. That'd be fine. You're easily replaceable... More so now than ever with no hiring forecasted.

[MaxAuto]

I actually enjoye working here and I get along great with everyone. But this company is antiquated. My attitude is not a dig at the pilots. So don't take it personal. It's a dig at management slow process in the 29 year of existence still running scheduling websites, payrol, and SOPs likes it's the late 90s.

You don't just quit because you dislike certain things. And you don't just say this is the way it's always been so don't try or expect thing to change which seems to be the attitude around here.

[QKZXKV]

I actually enjoye working here and I get along great with everyone. But this company is antiquated. My attitude is not a dig at the pilots. So don't take it personal. It's a dig at management slow process in the 29 year of existence still running scheduling websites, payrol, and SOPs likes it's the late 90s.

You don't just quit because you dislike certain things. And you don't just say this is the way it's always been so don't try or expect thing to change which seems to be the attitude around here.

Still people are tired of the bitching... especially from an airline that was about to go bankrupt.

Also, the grass ain't greener elsewhere. That's just the reality of Canadian Aviation. I guess you need more year round experience in Canada to see how much the whole industry is behind here (rum and coke charter airlines included).

[daedalusx]

I actually enjoye working here and I get along great with everyone. But this company is antiquated. My attitude is not a dig at the pilots. So don't take it personal. It's a dig at management slow process in the 29 year of existence still running scheduling websites, payrol, and SOPs likes it's the late 90s.

You don't just quit because you dislike certain things. And you don't just say this is the way it's always been so don't try or expect thing to change which seems to be the attitude around here.

Still people are tired of the bitching... especially from an airline that was about to go bankrupt.

Also, the grass ain't greener elsewhere. That's just the reality of Canadian Aviation. I guess you need more year round experience in Canada to see how much the whole industry is behind here (rum and coke charter airlines included).

You’re a special kind of retard if you believe Sunwing was about to go bankrupt.

[phenix]

Still people are tired of the bitching... especially from an airline that was about to go bankrupt.

Also, the grass ain't greener elsewhere. That's just the reality of Canadian Aviation. I guess you need more year round experience in Canada to see how much the whole industry is behind here (rum and coke charter airlines included).

You’re a special kind of retard if you believe Sunwing was about to go bankrupt.

“Accordingly, and on the one hand, what evidence there is establishes that Sunwing was in serious trouble. Local 4070 [the WestJet flight attendants] is undoubtedly correct that it was rescued by WestJet.”
That’s from Kaplan, in the FA arbitration.

[daedalusx]

Still people are tired of the bitching... especially from an airline that was about to go bankrupt.

Also, the grass ain't greener elsewhere. That's just the reality of Canadian Aviation. I guess you need more year round experience in Canada to see how much the whole industry is behind here (rum and coke charter airlines included).

You’re a special kind of retard if you believe Sunwing was about to go bankrupt.

“Accordingly, and on the one hand, what evidence there is establishes that Sunwing was in serious trouble. Local 4070 [the WestJet flight attendants] is undoubtedly correct that it was rescued by WestJet.”
That’s from Kaplan, in the FA arbitration.

Sunwing Vacation Group =! Sunwing Airlines.

Sunwing wasn't an airline trying to make money filling seats on 737s.
Actually I don't think I've ever met a WJer that understood the financial structure of Sunwing, how it made money, or how the partnership with TUI and Smartwings worked.

[Tbayer2021]

You’re a special kind of retard if you believe Sunwing was about to go bankrupt.

“Accordingly, and on the one hand, what evidence there is establishes that Sunwing was in serious trouble. Local 4070 [the WestJet flight attendants] is undoubtedly correct that it was rescued by WestJet.”
That’s from Kaplan, in the FA arbitration.

Sunwing Vacation Group =! Sunwing Airlines.

Sunwing wasn't an airline trying to make money filling seats on 737s.
Actually I don't think I've ever met a WJer that understood the financial structure of Sunwing, how it made money, or how the partnership with TUI and Smartwings worked.

Didn't the Hunters keep SW vacations and only sold the airline to WJ? That right there tells you which part was the money maker.

[cdnavater]

“Accordingly, and on the one hand, what evidence there is establishes that Sunwing was in serious trouble. Local 4070 [the WestJet flight attendants] is undoubtedly correct that it was rescued by WestJet.”
That’s from Kaplan, in the FA arbitration.

Sunwing Vacation Group =! Sunwing Airlines.

Sunwing wasn't an airline trying to make money filling seats on 737s.
Actually I don't think I've ever met a WJer that understood the financial structure of Sunwing, how it made money, or how the partnership with TUI and Smartwings worked.

Didn't the Hunters keep SW vacations and only sold the airline to WJ? That right there tells you which part was the money maker.

https://www.westjet.com/en-ca/news/2023 ... of-sunwing

“The WestJet Group today announced that it has completed its acquisition of Sunwing Vacations and Sunwing Airlines. The transaction, originally announced in March 2022, combines the two Canadian aviation and leisure travel success stories, and will bring greater choice, competitive airfares and increased direct access to sun destinations to Canadian travellers. In addition, it positions Sunwing to continue its growth across Canada and permits the newly merged company to protect jobs.
Stephen Hunter, formerly the CEO of Sunwing Vacations, has been appointed CEO of the WestJet Group’s Vacations Business, responsible for all tour operating and vacation package businesses of both the Sunwing Vacations and WestJet Vacations brands“

[QKZXKV]

I actually enjoye working here and I get along great with everyone. But this company is antiquated. My attitude is not a dig at the pilots. So don't take it personal. It's a dig at management slow process in the 29 year of existence still running scheduling websites, payrol, and SOPs likes it's the late 90s.

You don't just quit because you dislike certain things. And you don't just say this is the way it's always been so don't try or expect thing to change which seems to be the attitude around here.

Still people are tired of the bitching... especially from an airline that was about to go bankrupt.

Also, the grass ain't greener elsewhere. That's just the reality of Canadian Aviation. I guess you need more year round experience in Canada to see how much the whole industry is behind here (rum and coke charter airlines included).

You’re a special kind of retard if you believe Sunwing was about to go bankrupt.

Not as special as you

[boeingboy]

Sunwing wasn't going anywhere. Like you - I'm sick of hearing it from whiners who understand nothing about it and refuse to even learn....... 2 billion in assets and $100 million profit each year. yea she was fine.

Unlike Westjet.....Even the CEO was talking about it's debt load...I'll bet most of it was from COVID shutdowns too....but whatever. We are all one now and you dont need to be sore and slinging falsehoods just because someone else voices the opinion that Westjet isn't the greatest run business in the sky. Does it work....yea - but it needs some serious upgrades in all divisions.

[cdnavater]

Sunwing wasn't going anywhere. Like you - I'm sick of hearing it from whiners who understand nothing about it and refuse to even learn....... 2 billion in assets and $100 million profit each year. yea she was fine.

Unlike Westjet.....Even the CEO was talking about it's debt load...I'll bet most of it was from COVID shutdowns too....but whatever. We are all one now and you dont need to be sore and slinging falsehoods just because someone else voices the opinion that Westjet isn't the greatest run business in the sky. Does it work....yea - but it needs some serious upgrades in all divisions.

I’m curious, what evidence was presented to convince an arbitrator if the above numbers are accurate?
Where did you get those numbers, actual financial reports?

[ant_321]

Sunwing wasn't going anywhere. Like you - I'm sick of hearing it from whiners who understand nothing about it and refuse to even learn....... 2 billion in assets and $100 million profit each year. yea she was fine.

Unlike Westjet.....Even the CEO was talking about it's debt load...I'll bet most of it was from COVID shutdowns too....but whatever. We are all one now and you dont need to be sore and slinging falsehoods just because someone else voices the opinion that Westjet isn't the greatest run business in the sky. Does it work....yea - but it needs some serious upgrades in all divisions.

I’m curious, what evidence was presented to convince an arbitrator if the above numbers are accurate?
Where did you get those numbers, actual financial reports?

Sunwing airlines was never intended to make money. It was all about costing the vacation company less money. In the best of times it never made a cent. It was ran as an expense. Think hotel shuttle bus. It would be pretty easy to prove your hotel shuttle bus isn’t making any money. That doesn’t mean your shuttle bus is on the verge of bankruptcy.

[cdnavater]

Sunwing wasn't going anywhere. Like you - I'm sick of hearing it from whiners who understand nothing about it and refuse to even learn....... 2 billion in assets and $100 million profit each year. yea she was fine.

Unlike Westjet.....Even the CEO was talking about it's debt load...I'll bet most of it was from COVID shutdowns too....but whatever. We are all one now and you dont need to be sore and slinging falsehoods just because someone else voices the opinion that Westjet isn't the greatest run business in the sky. Does it work....yea - but it needs some serious upgrades in all divisions.

I’m curious, what evidence was presented to convince an arbitrator if the above numbers are accurate?
Where did you get those numbers, actual financial reports?

Sunwing airlines was never intended to make money. It was all about costing the vacation company less money. In the best of times it never made a cent. It was ran as an expense. Think hotel shuttle bus. It would be pretty easy to prove your hotel shuttle bus isn’t making any money. That doesn’t mean your shuttle bus is on the verge of bankruptcy.

They were run as a separate business though, correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Air Transat the same thing, operating for Transat vacations.
I’m not trying to dispute that Sunwing vacations had 2 billion in assets or made money but it would be pretty easy to wipe out 100 million in profits with an airline that took on a bunch of debt dragging it down.
Fact is there is a cost to carrying guests to vacations and that cost is part of the all inclusive price, if that cost exceeds the “allowance” for the price, there is going to be a problem.
I’m basically saying that Sunwing the airline may have exceeded the usefulness and bankrupting it may have been an option for clearing the debt. If Sunwing vacations were on the hook for the debt and not Sunwing the airline, then maybe you have a case.
Also, I can’t find any financial information on how much the deal was worth, they were both private, so maybe not public but unions have access to the information for open and apparent negotiations, this was obviously passed on to the arbitrator who agreed that there was trouble.

[phenix]

I’m curious, what evidence was presented to convince an arbitrator if the above numbers are accurate?
Where did you get those numbers, actual financial reports?

Sunwing airlines was never intended to make money. It was all about costing the vacation company less money. In the best of times it never made a cent. It was ran as an expense. Think hotel shuttle bus. It would be pretty easy to prove your hotel shuttle bus isn’t making any money. That doesn’t mean your shuttle bus is on the verge of bankruptcy.

They were run as a separate business though, correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Air Transat the same thing, operating for Transat vacations.
I’m not trying to dispute that Sunwing vacations had 2 billion in assets or made money but it would be pretty easy to wipe out 100 million in profits with an airline that took on a bunch of debt dragging it down.
Fact is there is a cost to carrying guests to vacations and that cost is part of the all inclusive price, if that cost exceeds the “allowance” for the price, there is going to be a problem.
I’m basically saying that Sunwing the airline may have exceeded the usefulness and bankrupting it may have been an option for clearing the debt. If Sunwing vacations were on the hook for the debt and not Sunwing the airline, then maybe you have a case.
Also, I can’t find any financial information on how much the deal was worth, they were both private, so maybe not public but unions have access to the information for open and apparent negotiations, this was obviously passed on to the arbitrator who agreed that there was trouble.

Regarding the arbitrator comments, in page 33 of the FA IPSL document, he was quoting the Order in Council who noted “in the absence of the acquisition, Sunwing’s ongoing viability in the market would be in jeopardy” and “a major consideration in the Minister’s recommendation is that the Acquisition would prevent the imminent threat to Sunwing’s financial viability and possible exit from the market”. In the whole document, Sunwing is used for Sunwing Airlines.
Reading the document, the arbitrator discarded the financial situation of the companies as relevant to create a integrated seniority list. So it looks like he simply quoted the OIC and the Minister.

Regarding the rest, I think that’s what everybody thinks: the minute Sunwing Airlines becomes a company, they can go bankrupt even if Sunwing Travel has a good financial health. That’s even why they are a separate company, to limit liability on the group. The hotel shuttle cannot go bankrupt until they become a separate company, then they need to be viable because they won’t be allowed to live under money perfusion.

[boeingboy]

I’m curious, what evidence was presented to convince an arbitrator if the above numbers are accurate?
Where did you get those numbers, actual financial reports?

Sunwing airlines was never intended to make money. It was all about costing the vacation company less money. In the best of times it never made a cent. It was ran as an expense. Think hotel shuttle bus. It would be pretty easy to prove your hotel shuttle bus isn’t making any money. That doesn’t mean your shuttle bus is on the verge of bankruptcy.

They were run as a separate business though, correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Air Transat the same thing, operating for Transat vacations.
I’m not trying to dispute that Sunwing vacations had 2 billion in assets or made money but it would be pretty easy to wipe out 100 million in profits with an airline that took on a bunch of debt dragging it down.
Fact is there is a cost to carrying guests to vacations and that cost is part of the all inclusive price, if that cost exceeds the “allowance” for the price, there is going to be a problem.
I’m basically saying that Sunwing the airline may have exceeded the usefulness and bankrupting it may have been an option for clearing the debt. If Sunwing vacations were on the hook for the debt and not Sunwing the airline, then maybe you have a case.
Also, I can’t find any financial information on how much the deal was worth, they were both private, so maybe not public but unions have access to the information for open and apparent negotiations, this was obviously passed on to the arbitrator who agreed that there was trouble.

Took on a bunch of debt? - I assume your talking about COVID? $125 million the first year and $75 million the second year.....then made $70 million in the first 6 months after covid. By that reasoning - Westjet and Air Canada should have been gone long ago to say nothing about Air Transats problems. Im sure each division is run separately internally but it was never supposed to make money. Kaplan was only running off the airlines numbers - which in that case - was going broke the day it first started flying. The deal was widely reported as $300 million - a lot of that was stock though. I'd love to know just how much.

[phenix]

Sunwing airlines was never intended to make money. It was all about costing the vacation company less money. In the best of times it never made a cent. It was ran as an expense. Think hotel shuttle bus. It would be pretty easy to prove your hotel shuttle bus isn’t making any money. That doesn’t mean your shuttle bus is on the verge of bankruptcy.

They were run as a separate business though, correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Air Transat the same thing, operating for Transat vacations.
I’m not trying to dispute that Sunwing vacations had 2 billion in assets or made money but it would be pretty easy to wipe out 100 million in profits with an airline that took on a bunch of debt dragging it down.
Fact is there is a cost to carrying guests to vacations and that cost is part of the all inclusive price, if that cost exceeds the “allowance” for the price, there is going to be a problem.
I’m basically saying that Sunwing the airline may have exceeded the usefulness and bankrupting it may have been an option for clearing the debt. If Sunwing vacations were on the hook for the debt and not Sunwing the airline, then maybe you have a case.
Also, I can’t find any financial information on how much the deal was worth, they were both private, so maybe not public but unions have access to the information for open and apparent negotiations, this was obviously passed on to the arbitrator who agreed that there was trouble.

Took on a bunch of debt? - I assume your talking about COVID? $125 million the first year and $75 million the second year.....then made $70 million in the first 6 months after covid. By that reasoning - Westjet and Air Canada should have been gone long ago to say nothing about Air Transats problems. Im sure each division is run separately internally but it was never supposed to make money. Kaplan was only running off the airlines numbers - which in that case - was going broke the day it first started flying. The deal was widely reported as $300 million - a lot of that was stock though. I'd love to know just how much.

The debt is the LEEFF loan that Sunwing took during Covid. Sunwing borrowed 227m from the government, plus 100.3m Air Voucher Travel facility loan (APPR claims). As part of Sunwing acquisition, WestJet was required to pay the outstanding debt, meaning 262m with fees and interests, plus the 100.3m which will be paid at maturity in 2028.
Kaplan stated that pre Covid, the financial health of Sunwing was stable, so I doubt he stated that Sunwing was in a hazardous financial situation post Covid simply because he didn’t understand how a charter company attached to a tour operator works

[onspeed]

Sunwing was limited on how much it could grow its business model with the European deployments and bringing back wet / dry leases in the winter. They wanted into a larger airline that they could integrate with to continue to grow the revenue stream for their hotels. Thats all this merger was about for Sunwing, access to more year round lift. Everything else we read about was them trying to pressure the government and competition bureau not to stall / cancel the deal.

Any airline, including WJ and AC who were basically shuttered for 1.5 years were going to be in financial stress as a result. If Onex hadn't added Sunwing it would have been a challenging few winters now with the downturn in US flying.

[safetyfirst123]

It would have been interesting to see Westjet's winter program this year without the Sunwing flying. Another point is that Westjet loves to claim that they were the only major airline not to get government loans during COVID. That is true, but they were negotiating for loans during that time, so it's not like they were swimming in cash. Also, ONEX bought Westjet just before COVID, and they have deep pockets. If it weren't for the ONEX purchase, it's likely that Westjet would have had to dig into LEEFF loans just like all other major airlines.

[phenix]

It would have been interesting to see Westjet's winter program this year without the Sunwing flying. Another point is that Westjet loves to claim that they were the only major airline not to get government loans during COVID. That is true, but they were negotiating for loans during that time, so it's not like they were swimming in cash. Also, ONEX bought Westjet just before COVID, and they have deep pockets. If it weren't for the ONEX purchase, it's likely that Westjet would have had to dig into LEEFF loans just like all other major airlines.

It’s a common mistake to think that because you’re owned by a large group, they will start sending money your way if you’re in trouble. Maybe that’s why some SWGers thought that Sunwing couldn’t go down. I remember some Lynx employees thinking money would flow after Indigo became shareholder. Reality is ONEX is here to make money, and will dump WestJet the minute there won’t be enough yield to extract from them. Lots of company owned by PE funds went bankrupt in the last 20 years, they don’t get too emotional about it.

Westjet doesn't have a winter program, it’s a year round company. Winter is not what keeps the lights on. Winter season probably would have been very similar to the last few years, maybe a little bit less US flying, compensated by more South or domestic flying like they did this summer. Reality is WestJet has hired about 50 pilots in 2024+2025+2026, there are 100 pilots less than a year ago, no new planes, and YYZ has been reduced. So maybe the Sunwing flying is a blessing and we need so many more pilots and planes for it, but it doesn’t exactly look like so.

[Handover]

Still people are tired of the bitching... especially from an airline that was about to go bankrupt.

You’re kidding, right? The all-bases group chat is a nonstop stream of complaints about absolutely everything. Apparently that’s fine when it’s coming from legacy WestJet pilots, but everyone else is expected to smile politely and be grateful - while working under a broken collective agreement and a “this is how we’ve always done it” mindset.

[eyebrow737]

This “Sunwing was doomed and WestJet saved them” line keeps resurfacing, and at this point it reads less like insight and more like self-soothing.

Sunwing was acquired, not dragged out under CCAA. No bankruptcy, no creditor protection, no hard evidence that failure was inevitable. Acquisitions happen because the target has value. Pretending it was charity is either ignorance or revisionism.

So why keep repeating it? Because it conveniently carries an implied message: be grateful, don’t complain, know your place. That’s not analysis. That’s emotional leverage dressed up as wisdom.

WestJet pilots didn’t personally rescue anyone, and Sunwing pilots didn’t incur some lifelong debt of gratitude because a corporate transaction worked for shareholders. Suggesting otherwise confuses employment with feudal loyalty.

When someone keeps leaning on a “we saved you” narrative, it’s usually because the actual position won’t hold up on its own. What’s being defended here isn’t facts or logic. It’s ego, and a fairly fragile one at that.