biz jet challenger 650 crashed on takeoff bangor maine

[oldncold]

Bangor maine international closed .650 crashed on take off atc "aware of 8 persons on the plane .

Weather was getting pretty bad and the 650 has a super critical wing. any contaimination ice etc going to severely affect take off . especially if at max gross . ie heading for europe, or west coast of usa . .

[Nauclerus]

Listening to the LiveATC tapes, for de-ice they requested full aircraft type 1, and wings and tail type 4. From the time they left the de-ice bay until they started the takeoff roll was about 10 minutes.

METAR KBGR 260053Z 04009KT 3/4SM R15/6000VP6000FT -SN VV011 M17/M19 A3035
SPECI KBGR 260026Z 04006KT 3/4SM R15/P6000FT -SN VV012 M16/M19 A3039
SPECI KBGR 260008Z 03006KT 3/4SM R15/6000VP6000FT -SN VV015 M16/M19 A3039
METAR KBGR 252353Z 05006KT 1 1/4SM -SN OVC016 M16/M19 A3040

Transport Canada Guidelines define 3/4SM visibility at night with a temperature below -1C as HEAVY SNOW. Generic Type 4 holdover time in MODERATE SNOW at -16C is 2 to 9 minutes. There is no applicable holdover time given for HEAVY SNOW.

https://x.com/IntelPointAlert/status/20 ... 4855020980

[cdnavater]

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/crash-pri ... -9.7060736

“The U.S. Federal Aviation Administration says seven people were killed and a crew member survived with serious injuries when a private business jet crashed in a snowstorm at Maine's Bangor International Airport.”

[Sulako]

Transport Canada Guidelines define 3/4SM visibility at night with a temperature below -1C as HEAVY SNOW. Generic Type 4 holdover time in MODERATE SNOW at -16C is 2 to 9 minutes. There is no applicable holdover time given for HEAVY SNOW.

It's interesting and noteworthy that the FAA HOT guidelines say that 3/4sm visibility in snow at -17C is only moderate snow - they have more relaxed standards than we do. Either way, I'm guessing the cause of the accident was a stall on takeoff due to wing contamination. The 600-series and 800-series of Challenger really hate having contaminated wings, and there is a special icing awareness module taught during initial courses of those types.

I wonder if the crew was suckered in by the METAR saying it was light snow. We train our crews to use page 71 of the 2025/2026 TC HOT guidelines when determining precipitation intensity for deicing purposes and remind them that METAR precip intensity may not be the same as HOT guideline precip intensity once you take visibility into account.

[Dronepiper]

Does anyone know what type of "type 4" fluid they took? Looks like the HOT is significantly different depending on the manufacturer of the fluid.

[co-joe]

Makes sense that this was a big factor. The app I have access to changes from moderate snowfall intensity with a hold over time of 25-50 minutes for Type 4, to heavy intensity with "no holdover guidelines exist" when you switch from daytime to night time, based on that first Metar.

[Nauclerus]

It's interesting and noteworthy that the FAA HOT guidelines say that 3/4sm visibility in snow at -17C is only moderate snow - they have more relaxed standards than we do.

Interesting. The FAA version for the most part seems like a direct copy of the Transport Canada version, except for that table and the Generic type 4 holdover times are also a bit different. The FAA version even uses the same CYVO METAR as an example.

Transport Canada version www.cbaa-acaa.ca/docs/HOT_Tables_2025_2026.pdf

FAA version https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/aviatio ... Tables.pdf

[Canoehead]

Juan sums up the prelim well. These guys were amateurs. I don't believe they even consulted HOT tables. If they did, they had no idea what they were looking at. Horrible decision making and knowledge base. Nevermind the so called flying "skills".

Amateurs.

https://youtu.be/HK2uhj6AABI?si=x8ZcWZ1gDbeiGHXJ

[pelmet]

Juan sums up the prelim well. These guys were amateurs. I don't believe they even consulted HOT tables. If they did, they had no idea what they were looking at. Horrible decision making and knowledge base. Nevermind the so called flying "skills".

Amateurs.

https://youtu.be/HK2uhj6AABI?si=x8ZcWZ1gDbeiGHXJ

Usually, it seems to be not too cold when moderate snow is falling. But on occasion, it turns out to be quite cold and from a holdover table point of view, once the temperature reaches a certain point below freezing, the holdover time just isn't enough and flying operations have to stop, unless some alternative method of compliance is possible. For this particular type IV fluid, the holdover times drop a very large amount at a certain temperature.

Seeing as this was just a refueling flight, it could make sense for a pilot to call ahead to do a more careful analysis of temperature and snow conditions at potential refueling airports and avoid ones that will have holdover times that present difficulties. Sometimes that could involve an extra stop. De-icing planning resembling fuel planning.

[pelmet]

Juan sums up the prelim well. These guys were amateurs. I don't believe they even consulted HOT tables. If they did, they had no idea what they were looking at. Horrible decision making and knowledge base. Nevermind the so called flying "skills".

Amateurs.

https://youtu.be/HK2uhj6AABI?si=x8ZcWZ1gDbeiGHXJ

Usually, it seems to be not too cold when moderate snow is falling. But on occasion, it turns out to be quite cold and from a holdover table point of view, once the temperature reaches a certain point below freezing, the holdover time just isn't enough and flying operations have to stop, unless some alternative method of compliance is possible. For this particular type IV fluid, the holdover times drop a very large amount at a certain temperature.

Seeing as this was just a refueling flight, it could make sense for a pilot to call ahead to do a more careful analysis of temperature and snow conditions at potential refueling airports and avoid ones that will have holdover times that present difficulties. Sometimes that could involve an extra stop. De-icing planning resembling fuel planning.

[Old fella]

Juan sums up the prelim well. These guys were amateurs. I don't believe they even consulted HOT tables. If they did, they had no idea what they were looking at. Horrible decision making and knowledge base. Nevermind the so called flying "skills".

Amateurs.

https://youtu.be/HK2uhj6AABI?si=x8ZcWZ1gDbeiGHXJ

Undoubtedly. Wealthy “ influencers “ heading over to France in a high end boutique law firm’s shiny jet flown by what’s appears to be, an ill prepared flight crew with a debatable skill set to handle such a trip , especially harsh winter operations at BGR.

[Taco Joe]

Juan sums up the prelim well. These guys were amateurs. I don't believe they even consulted HOT tables. If they did, they had no idea what they were looking at. Horrible decision making and knowledge base. Nevermind the so called flying "skills".

Amateurs.

https://youtu.be/HK2uhj6AABI?si=x8ZcWZ1gDbeiGHXJ

I'm on an initial course in the US right now and I'm also the only Canadian in the class. When we did the "cold weather operations" module, no one had a clue what the HOT tables were or that you had to refer to the "prevailing visibility" chart. And these weren't a bunch of fresh new commercial pilots on their first jet; most of them had been flying for decades with military, airline and corporate experience. It was also the first time that I saw a training provider like CAE or FlightSafety actually show the HOT and visibility tables and taught you how to use them. The instructor specifically showed it in response to this crash and it was mind boggling that these guys just had no concept of how de- and anti-icing work.

Hopefully this crash will push more operators to teach this stuff so these things can be prevented.

[digits_]

It's definitely on the pilots if they don't use the holdover times correctly, but to be fair, the table headers don't help much. I remember thinking that people were joking around when telling me that light snow in the table doesn't match light snow in the metar.

It would probably help a lot if the table heading would use different terminology. Something like "snow type A/B/C", forcing people to wonder "wtf is snow type B?" and hopefully triggering some more research.