E2 Loads

[Teeg]

As someone directly affected by the decision, let me provide some context.
The reduction in YHZ last year cut the base by approx 60%. Most people stayed with "side deals" with flt ops to operate in other bases for upwards of 24mos.
We were told that at that time, to create a schedule for that many crew, the base would be allocated approx 1000hrs of flying a month. The reduction reduced to 400 ish hrs. For operational efficiency
What I think was interesting is that crew on reserve were continuing to work, a lot. Maybe it started and ended with a deadhead, but most were flying their MMG.
As per our director of crew resources, the business case for a reduction in hours did not take into account hours flown by YHZ crew tasked to out of base flying.
What Im waiting for is:
1. are base hours being reallocated to YTZ/YOW, approx 1000
2. If it isnt (reduced flying,) how does this affect pretty senior crew potentially bumping other crew in other bases?
With only 4 jets slated for delivery in 2026, even if all displaced crew stayed will they find homes?

Interesting from a business sense, brutal living through it

[goingnowherefast]

Base closures did not involve any flight crew layoffs. Options were provided through a letter to affected crews on moving bases, or accepting voluntary layoff/retirement. Hiring on the flight crew side (potentially cabin crew) is paused for the time being. No route reductions are announced. Essentially as you were for everyone on the line.

Layoffs that took place were background operational staff and managers.

Halifax and Thunder Bay are full of local operators. Does Porter really, honestly expect everyone to commute or move? Or are they expecting high attrition to reduce pilot staffing levels without using the word "layoff".

I think they are expecting people to make a choice. It's incredibly ill timed, and inconvenient for the affected crews. Neither base is easy to commute from, and definitely not to the island, as this only affects Dash 8 crews..If I were in their shoes, I would absolutely be reconsidering continuing with Porter and finding something closer to home.

That said, they do have the option and the jet operates through both former bases.

Looking at it through a magnifying lens; is this the executives punishing crews for voting in ALPA? Possibly.

My take is that this is part of a massive cost cutting measure. To what end, I'm not sure. But we have been running less efficient than desired for a while since bringing on the E2. Bases are expensive to maintain, as you have to route flying through them, enough to accomodate the crews allotted.

Food for thought.

Do the affected pilots get displaced rights onto the e2? Or is it YTZ Q400 or quit?

[cdnavater]

To be fair, didn't LYNX go bankrupt very shortly after their pilot's decided to unionize with ALPA?

In retrospect it does seem a worse than negotiating tactics, base closures are a pretty big deal and probably the bulk of the layoffs

Base closures did not involve any flight crew layoffs. Options were provided through a letter to affected crews on moving bases, or accepting voluntary layoff/retirement. Hiring on the flight crew side (potentially cabin crew) is paused for the time being. No route reductions are announced. Essentially as you were for everyone on the line.

Layoffs that took place were background operational staff and managers.

I had assumed no crew layoffs just displaced with a few “I quit” sprinkled in.
Based on the post from Teeg, it seems like this was inevitable and likely joining ALPA was the last nail in the coffin to make the decision.
The decision could simply be because the current agreement that is locked in until a new one is reached has more favourable language about closing bases than a typical ALPA agreement.
What does the current forced move language include?
Anyhow, one thing is the relationship didn’t need to change but it certainly did, this will most certainly cause some animosity towards management and the level of “screw you” will go up.

[lowoleo22]

Do the affected pilots get displaced rights onto the e2? Or is it YTZ Q400 or quit?

Pilots are being offered YTZ and YOW Q400. No one gets to skip the queue to the E2, you still flow in seniority order. Although no one knows if flow will continue to happen with reduced deliveries in 2026.

[goingnowherefast]

That's pretty awful layoff provisions. No wonder Porter unionized. Everyone else would have displacement rights to any position their seniority could hold.

I don't see it as "skipping the queue". It's more along the lines of "my job doesn't exist anymore, so give me what my seniority can hold". Keep the current queue going, these layoff displacements would be in ADDITION. I would hope that those unaffected by the base closures would be sympathetic and understanding to the situation faced by YHZ and YQT pilots.

[flieslikeachicken]

That's pretty awful layoff provisions. No wonder Porter unionized. Everyone else would have displacement rights to any position their seniority could hold.

I don't see it as "skipping the queue". It's more along the lines of "my job doesn't exist anymore, so give me what my seniority can hold". Keep the current queue going, these layoff displacements would be in ADDITION. I would hope that those unaffected by the base closures would be sympathetic and understanding to the situation faced by YHZ and YQT pilots.

It's still two AOCs, so when you move from the Q to the E2, you are ending your employment at PAI and starting employment at PACL.

Shell games help nobody except those who sell shells.

[flieslikeachicken]

That's pretty awful layoff provisions. No wonder Porter unionized. Everyone else would have displacement rights to any position their seniority could hold.

I don't see it as "skipping the queue". It's more along the lines of "my job doesn't exist anymore, so give me what my seniority can hold". Keep the current queue going, these layoff displacements would be in ADDITION. I would hope that those unaffected by the base closures would be sympathetic and understanding to the situation faced by YHZ and YQT pilots.

It's still two AOCs, so when you move from the Q to the E2, you are ending your employment at PAI and starting employment at PACL.

Shell games help nobody except those who sell shells.

[goingnowherefast]

That's pretty awful layoff provisions. No wonder Porter unionized. Everyone else would have displacement rights to any position their seniority could hold.

I don't see it as "skipping the queue". It's more along the lines of "my job doesn't exist anymore, so give me what my seniority can hold". Keep the current queue going, these layoff displacements would be in ADDITION. I would hope that those unaffected by the base closures would be sympathetic and understanding to the situation faced by YHZ and YQT pilots.

It's still two AOCs, so when you move from the Q to the E2, you are ending your employment at PAI and starting employment at PACL.

Shell games help nobody except those who sell shells.

Rouge and AC are different AOCs, they have displacement rights back and forth. I'm not buying that argument.

[flieslikeachicken]

Rouge and AC are different AOCs, they have displacement rights back and forth. I'm not buying that argument.

That's a negotiated agreement. Porter does not have a negotiated contract, and even if it did, recent events show that they would ignore it if it didn't suit them.

[flyinhigh]

Rouge and AC are different AOCs, they have displacement rights back and forth. I'm not buying that argument.

That's a negotiated agreement. Porter does not have a negotiated contract, and even if it did, recent events show that they would ignore it if it didn't suit them.

Umm, dude Rouge and AC are ONE LIST. ONE LIST (common employer as determined by the CIRB). Thus, seniority number is everything just like at POE.

[goingnowherefast]

Rouge and AC are different AOCs, they have displacement rights back and forth. I'm not buying that argument.

That's a negotiated agreement. Porter does not have a negotiated contract, and even if it did, recent events show that they would ignore it if it didn't suit them.

Umm, dude Rouge and AC are ONE LIST. ONE LIST (common employer as determined by the CIRB). Thus, seniority number is everything just like at POE.

His point was that Porter management shows that they believe compliance as optional when inconvenient. It might be the same arrangement as AC and Rouge, but none of that matters if management ignores what's inconvenient. I'm assuming ALPA is fighting this one. It's a sword that cuts twice, since POE pilots are in the pre-contract phase. Any non-compliance with the "frozen" work rules can be seen as changing the work rules during the freeze period and in violation of CIRB rules.

It's too bad. Porter always had the reputation of trying to protect their own and be better than AC. It created their own brand of kool-aid that encouraged loyalty and belief in the brand. Seemed like a great management attitude to ensure a cooperative and productive relationship with a union. Apparently not. Recent events show Porter is no better than any other faceless corporation. @#$! the employees if it saves a dime.

[cdnavater]

That's a negotiated agreement. Porter does not have a negotiated contract, and even if it did, recent events show that they would ignore it if it didn't suit them.

Umm, dude Rouge and AC are ONE LIST. ONE LIST (common employer as determined by the CIRB). Thus, seniority number is everything just like at POE.

His point was that Porter management shows that they believe compliance as optional when inconvenient. It might be the same arrangement as AC and Rouge, but none of that matters if management ignores what's inconvenient. I'm assuming ALPA is fighting this one. It's a sword that cuts twice, since POE pilots are in the pre-contract phase. Any non-compliance with the "frozen" work rules can be seen as changing the work rules during the freeze period and in violation of CIRB rules.

It's too bad. Porter always had the reputation of trying to protect their own and be better than AC. It created their own brand of kool-aid that encouraged loyalty and belief in the brand. Seemed like a great management attitude to ensure a cooperative and productive relationship with a union. Apparently not. Recent events show Porter is no better than any other faceless corporation. @#$! the employees if it saves a dime.

The thing is, other than pay it sure seemed like the work rules were lacking any QOL, plenty of stories about over worked and crappy schedules, other issues like no accommodations for initial training. Porter literally set the bar for pay but there is a reason for a successful union drive and it isn’t because they were super generous with work life balance!

[Hangry]

That's a negotiated agreement. Porter does not have a negotiated contract, and even if it did, recent events show that they would ignore it if it didn't suit them.

Umm, dude Rouge and AC are ONE LIST. ONE LIST (common employer as determined by the CIRB). Thus, seniority number is everything just like at POE.

His point was that Porter management shows that they believe compliance as optional when inconvenient. It might be the same arrangement as AC and Rouge, but none of that matters if management ignores what's inconvenient. I'm assuming ALPA is fighting this one. It's a sword that cuts twice, since POE pilots are in the pre-contract phase. Any non-compliance with the "frozen" work rules can be seen as changing the work rules during the freeze period and in violation of CIRB rules.

It's too bad. Porter always had the reputation of trying to protect their own and be better than AC. It created their own brand of kool-aid that encouraged loyalty and belief in the brand. Seemed like a great management attitude to ensure a cooperative and productive relationship with a union. Apparently not. Recent events show Porter is no better than any other faceless corporation. @#$! the employees if it saves a dime.

Porter pilots just learned the lesson of every other mature pilot group on planet earth. It’s juvenile to think mothercorp cares about you ever. It’s business. Unionization is necessary even if the outcomes aren’t exactly what you want.

Koolaid mentality is pathetic.

Edit…. I’m talking about civilized places where unionization is possible.

[cjp]

Halifax and Thunder Bay are full of local operators. Does Porter really, honestly expect everyone to commute or move? Or are they expecting high attrition to reduce pilot staffing levels without using the word "layoff".

I think they are expecting people to make a choice. It's incredibly ill timed, and inconvenient for the affected crews. Neither base is easy to commute from, and definitely not to the island, as this only affects Dash 8 crews..If I were in their shoes, I would absolutely be reconsidering continuing with Porter and finding something closer to home.

That said, they do have the option and the jet operates through both former bases.

Looking at it through a magnifying lens; is this the executives punishing crews for voting in ALPA? Possibly.

My take is that this is part of a massive cost cutting measure. To what end, I'm not sure. But we have been running less efficient than desired for a while since bringing on the E2. Bases are expensive to maintain, as you have to route flying through them, enough to accomodate the crews allotted.

Food for thought.

Do the affected pilots get displaced rights onto the e2? Or is it YTZ Q400 or quit?

Unsure. I would imagine they can bid anywhere their seniority holds, E2 or Q400. Considering those bases are ridiculously senior, they could slide onto the E2 in short order if they wished. Logistics of this are outside my knowledge area.