Does anyone know what the MEC is actually trying to get out of the ULP?

[Nick678]

Truedude sure has gone quiet.

Can’t really blame him, this was not an ideal outcome but after some reflection I’ve come away with a new view.
First, I didn’t see anyone else put their hand up for chair, with the one late and sardonic email which would not have been taken seriously, it really came down to Claude or Gil for that position.
I’m going to go with an optimistic outlook based on what Gil said he wants to do coupled with the rest of the names are new and after speaking directly with one of them on his intentions to hold Gil to account I’ll wait and see if there is a change in the tone.
I believe this will put to rest the s.35 talk and AC will continue their long history of doing what ever they want regardless of what they agree to, perhaps a grievance will go somewhere but that will not likely get anything for pilots at AC who have flowed but not when they were supposed to, they will be left out of any remedy.

The original grievance filed captured the first 298 pilots to flow to Air Canada. I have a hard time believing anyone at Jazz will be seen as an affected member by an arbitrator.

[truedude]

Truedude sure has gone quiet.

Can’t really blame him, this was not an ideal outcome but after some reflection I’ve come away with a new view.
First, I didn’t see anyone else put their hand up for chair, with the one late and sardonic email which would not have been taken seriously, it really came down to Claude or Gil for that position.
I’m going to go with an optimistic outlook based on what Gil said he wants to do coupled with the rest of the names are new and after speaking directly with one of them on his intentions to hold Gil to account I’ll wait and see if there is a change in the tone.
I believe this will put to rest the s.35 talk and AC will continue their long history of doing what ever they want regardless of what they agree to, perhaps a grievance will go somewhere but that will not likely get anything for pilots at AC who have flowed but not when they were supposed to, they will be left out of any remedy.

The original grievance filed captured the first 298 pilots to flow to Air Canada. I have a hard time believing anyone at Jazz will be seen as an affected member by an arbitrator.

It is a clear breach of contract.

[CaptDukeNukem]

I believe this will put to rest the s.35 talk

I do think you're correct.

I usually try to stay magnanimous. Had I been wrong (which sometimes I am) I was more than willing to eat crow and apologize for being wrong. However, given that all my posts were met with ad hominem attacks from Truedude, I think it's appropriate to revisit his shitposts and see who's predictions about this whole thing came true.

Truedude on the ULP dismissed by the CIRB:

Yes, we will be getting something.

And I have read the ACA submission, it is utterly ridiculous, filled with very little legal arguments, but rather a lot of whining, including a bunch of pages wasted on talking about CALPA.

We have a case, the CIRB has said are complaints have merrit, and when they rule at the end of the month, I suspect ACA will better understand the gravity of the situation. Or at least be unable to spin nonsense.

This isn't even remotely over. Our executive has already clearly indicated their intent to pursue common employer if this was the result. Which means they planned for it. And given the CIRB giving us a pretty clear message that is the avenue to be taken, we will absolutely take it.

Truedude on integrating into the AC seniority list:

That's why the easiest solution is to filter everyone back to when they should have been hired, based on the requirement to hire AC had agreed to.

If Jazz pilots have a strong common employer case, DOH would be a logical ask.

You don't know that. No one does. AC pilots have standing for a reason, it means the outcome could impact them, and thus they have a voice at the table. If they were just discussing compensation, AC pilots would have no reason to be involved.

So everyone hired took employment knowing fully many of those spots should have been Jazz pilots.

And have you even considered the worst case scenario of DOH list merger... Jazz has 900 active pilots, give or take... about 600 of them have ATPLs, the rest don't. So merge the 600 guys with ATPLs, DOH, the rest BOTL. And off those 600, 200 retire in the next 5 years or so. So you are left with 400 pilots shuffled into a list of 5800 pilots, over a period of years.

Truedude on the single employer application that was never filed:

It is the way they interfered, and yes it does meet the criteria for a section 35, particularly if you look at the reasons why the Rouge application failed. They couldn't show AC management directly interfering in contract talks, whereas we can.

And again, the application this time wont be the same as last time, as we have a mountain of evidence that AC directly interfered in our negotiations. The only people who don't want want to believe we have a strong case, are those that stand to be impacted.

Yes, they are. I know that one for a fact.

Jazz will 100% be filing one.

A s.35 is almost a certainty at this point, regardless of who is in charge of the Jazz MEC, it is best you come to terms with that.

What are you going to say when it is filed? Because it is coming, I am not sure why you think otherwise. The paper work, from my understanding, has already been drafted and is ready to be filed.

Truedude on a class action lawsuit against ALPA:

Just watch! And refusal to do so would mean Jazz pilots could file a failure to represent suit against ALPA.

No union can legally sign away protected rights of workers it represents, nor can they refuse to file claims for those workers based on signed agreements. To believe that, you are really out of touch with reality, and the Canadian legal system.

And a class action suit can be filed against ALPA for DFR behavior. The board has made it pretty clear here, that that is the avenue we should be pursuing. And we will.

It would be a class action for failure to represent appropriately. And it wouldn't be the first filed in Canada.

ALPA international has said and done nothing that limits our ability to file a s.35. And if our lawyers say there is a case and they interfere in us filing it, then thay absolutely represents a DFR. As a member of westjet ALPA, you should be very familiar those by now.

Truedude on suing Air Canada:

And a civil suit would be agaisnt AC as we have a signed agreement from them to us. But not sure the viability of that.

Truedude getting frustrated:

And I would be more worried about a DFR coming to WJA for your that secret agreement the WJA made with Westjet and you both refuse to turn over.

You guys at WJ got beaten hard during your merger, on part because you ignored your lawyers. And now you have your own ULP for secret deals you made with WJ which likely screwed over Sunwing guys. Agreements you still refuse to turn over. And you guys signed despite I believe being advised against doing so by your lawyers. So good luck with that...

Bede is a tool. They were a disaster during the merger, made arguments nobody could understand, and generally lost. Now they are facing a DFR, along with a ULP for an agreement they signed in secret with Westjet that neither party wants to reveal. Their chair and vice chair resigned shortly after the DFR was filed. He is the worst person to listen too.

And Rudder is retired, yet still can't get off avcanada.

Wow, I am living rent free in that head of yours.... That alone has made all this worth it.

I’m with you here. Bede spent hours quoting up this post for sure. I love a good back hand slash to a post but we’ve all spewed nonsense at some point. I suspect ChatGPT, and/or Trump, or possibly the McCains French fry kid with the glasses from the 90s influenced his pilot decision making.

[cdnavater]

Truedude sure has gone quiet.

Can’t really blame him, this was not an ideal outcome but after some reflection I’ve come away with a new view.
First, I didn’t see anyone else put their hand up for chair, with the one late and sardonic email which would not have been taken seriously, it really came down to Claude or Gil for that position.
I’m going to go with an optimistic outlook based on what Gil said he wants to do coupled with the rest of the names are new and after speaking directly with one of them on his intentions to hold Gil to account I’ll wait and see if there is a change in the tone.
I believe this will put to rest the s.35 talk and AC will continue their long history of doing what ever they want regardless of what they agree to, perhaps a grievance will go somewhere but that will not likely get anything for pilots at AC who have flowed but not when they were supposed to, they will be left out of any remedy.

The original grievance filed captured the first 298 pilots to flow to Air Canada. I have a hard time believing anyone at Jazz will be seen as an affected member by an arbitrator.

The problem with this attitude is that you can’t see anything other than the flow, think of how the flow came to be, the events leading up to it and how that affected long tenured Jazz Pilots.
However, there is more than one grievance to be filed and they are likely to be dealt with separately, the one I’m more concerned about the original MOU 7 and how it became what we voted on!
I’m also thinking that a grievance about the exclusivity that was agreed to and was violated with the PAL flying. Obviously a big mistake was not capturing that in the contract but it was done in good faith and should be dealt with, not sure if a grievance can deal with something not in the CA.
We will see if Gil can get anything done his way, supposedly he would prefer to negotiate rather than litigation, I won’t hold my breath, AC only comes to the table if they have to.

[Nick678]

Can’t really blame him, this was not an ideal outcome but after some reflection I’ve come away with a new view.
First, I didn’t see anyone else put their hand up for chair, with the one late and sardonic email which would not have been taken seriously, it really came down to Claude or Gil for that position.
I’m going to go with an optimistic outlook based on what Gil said he wants to do coupled with the rest of the names are new and after speaking directly with one of them on his intentions to hold Gil to account I’ll wait and see if there is a change in the tone.
I believe this will put to rest the s.35 talk and AC will continue their long history of doing what ever they want regardless of what they agree to, perhaps a grievance will go somewhere but that will not likely get anything for pilots at AC who have flowed but not when they were supposed to, they will be left out of any remedy.

The original grievance filed captured the first 298 pilots to flow to Air Canada. I have a hard time believing anyone at Jazz will be seen as an affected member by an arbitrator.

The problem with this attitude is that you can’t see anything other than the flow, think of how the flow came to be, the events leading up to it and how that affected long tenured Jazz Pilots.
However, there is more than one grievance to be filed and they are likely to be dealt with separately, the one I’m more concerned about the original MOU 7 and how it became what we voted on!
I’m also thinking that a grievance about the exclusivity that was agreed to and was violated with the PAL flying. Obviously a big mistake was not capturing that in the contract but it was done in good faith and should be dealt with, not sure if a grievance can deal with something not in the CA.
We will see if Gil can get anything done his way, supposedly he would prefer to negotiate rather than litigation, I won’t hold my breath, AC only comes to the table if they have to.

I don’t believe arbitrators deal with the history or hurt feelings of any disputes. They just look at the facts of the violation. The last grievance I recall include those temp bases, YVR pilots received compensation and the more impacted yyc pilots received nothing. While these grievances are more significant I can’t see them being dealt with differently.

I always assumed Claude wouldn’t last outside of the MEC, has he gone to management yet? Or STD/GDIP?

[cdnavater]

The original grievance filed captured the first 298 pilots to flow to Air Canada. I have a hard time believing anyone at Jazz will be seen as an affected member by an arbitrator.

The problem with this attitude is that you can’t see anything other than the flow, think of how the flow came to be, the events leading up to it and how that affected long tenured Jazz Pilots.
However, there is more than one grievance to be filed and they are likely to be dealt with separately, the one I’m more concerned about the original MOU 7 and how it became what we voted on!
I’m also thinking that a grievance about the exclusivity that was agreed to and was violated with the PAL flying. Obviously a big mistake was not capturing that in the contract but it was done in good faith and should be dealt with, not sure if a grievance can deal with something not in the CA.
We will see if Gil can get anything done his way, supposedly he would prefer to negotiate rather than litigation, I won’t hold my breath, AC only comes to the table if they have to.

I don’t believe arbitrators deal with the history or hurt feelings of any disputes. They just look at the facts of the violation. The last grievance I recall include those temp bases, YVR pilots received compensation and the more impacted yyc pilots received nothing. While these grievances are more significant I can’t see them being dealt with differently.

I always assumed Claude wouldn’t last outside of the MEC, has he gone to management yet? Or STD/GDIP?

Yes, it will be curious to see what happens, he has been on full flight release for so long that adjusting to that would be extremely onerous, I know he does come through for recurrent training from time to time so he will need some indoc likely to get back.
I don’t really like your insinuation that he’ll go on disability to avoid reality, that’s a shitty thing to do and he is not that guy, hopefully I’m not wrong.
The other, I can’t see a management position for him, we don’t have any real negotiating to do, cost neutral has no need for a former rep to be on the other side of the table!
I see a possibility of him getting an ERP and who knows maybe he already applied and that is why he withdrew from the elections.

[Nick678]

The problem with this attitude is that you can’t see anything other than the flow, think of how the flow came to be, the events leading up to it and how that affected long tenured Jazz Pilots.
However, there is more than one grievance to be filed and they are likely to be dealt with separately, the one I’m more concerned about the original MOU 7 and how it became what we voted on!
I’m also thinking that a grievance about the exclusivity that was agreed to and was violated with the PAL flying. Obviously a big mistake was not capturing that in the contract but it was done in good faith and should be dealt with, not sure if a grievance can deal with something not in the CA.
We will see if Gil can get anything done his way, supposedly he would prefer to negotiate rather than litigation, I won’t hold my breath, AC only comes to the table if they have to.

I don’t believe arbitrators deal with the history or hurt feelings of any disputes. They just look at the facts of the violation. The last grievance I recall include those temp bases, YVR pilots received compensation and the more impacted yyc pilots received nothing. While these grievances are more significant I can’t see them being dealt with differently.

I always assumed Claude wouldn’t last outside of the MEC, has he gone to management yet? Or STD/GDIP?

Yes, it will be curious to see what happens, he has been on full flight release for so long that adjusting to that would be extremely onerous, I know he does come through for recurrent training from time to time so he will need some indoc likely to get back.
I don’t really like your insinuation that he’ll go on disability to avoid reality, that’s a shitty thing to do and he is not that guy, hopefully I’m not wrong.
The other, I can’t see a management position for him, we don’t have any real negotiating to do, cost neutral has no need for a former rep to be on the other side of the table!
I see a possibility of him getting an ERP and who knows maybe he already applied and that is why he withdrew from the elections.

The assumption of his transition to GDIP was based on the last time I saw him.

[cdnavater]

I don’t believe arbitrators deal with the history or hurt feelings of any disputes. They just look at the facts of the violation. The last grievance I recall include those temp bases, YVR pilots received compensation and the more impacted yyc pilots received nothing. While these grievances are more significant I can’t see them being dealt with differently.

I always assumed Claude wouldn’t last outside of the MEC, has he gone to management yet? Or STD/GDIP?

Yes, it will be curious to see what happens, he has been on full flight release for so long that adjusting to that would be extremely onerous, I know he does come through for recurrent training from time to time so he will need some indoc likely to get back.
I don’t really like your insinuation that he’ll go on disability to avoid reality, that’s a shitty thing to do and he is not that guy, hopefully I’m not wrong.
The other, I can’t see a management position for him, we don’t have any real negotiating to do, cost neutral has no need for a former rep to be on the other side of the table!
I see a possibility of him getting an ERP and who knows maybe he already applied and that is why he withdrew from the elections.

The assumption of his transition to GDIP was based on the last time I saw him.

Oh, ok, I can read between the lines on that.

[piedpiper]

The problem with this attitude is that you can’t see anything other than the flow, think of how the flow came to be, the events leading up to it and how that affected long tenured Jazz Pilots.
However, there is more than one grievance to be filed and they are likely to be dealt with separately, the one I’m more concerned about the original MOU 7 and how it became what we voted on!
I’m also thinking that a grievance about the exclusivity that was agreed to and was violated with the PAL flying. Obviously a big mistake was not capturing that in the contract but it was done in good faith and should be dealt with, not sure if a grievance can deal with something not in the CA.
We will see if Gil can get anything done his way, supposedly he would prefer to negotiate rather than litigation, I won’t hold my breath, AC only comes to the table if they have to.

I don’t believe arbitrators deal with the history or hurt feelings of any disputes. They just look at the facts of the violation. The last grievance I recall include those temp bases, YVR pilots received compensation and the more impacted yyc pilots received nothing. While these grievances are more significant I can’t see them being dealt with differently.

I always assumed Claude wouldn’t last outside of the MEC, has he gone to management yet? Or STD/GDIP?

Yes, it will be curious to see what happens, he has been on full flight release for so long that adjusting to that would be extremely onerous, I know he does come through for recurrent training from time to time so he will need some indoc likely to get back.
I don’t really like your insinuation that he’ll go on disability to avoid reality, that’s a shitty thing to do and he is not that guy, hopefully I’m not wrong.
The other, I can’t see a management position for him, we don’t have any real negotiating to do, cost neutral has no need for a former rep to be on the other side of the table!
I see a possibility of him getting an ERP and who knows maybe he already applied and that is why he withdrew from the elections.

Why would he need indoc? He is a line pilot and flys quite often does he not? At least he did when I was at Jazz while he was MEC Chair.

[hithere]

He did not fly much in recent years. Less than 10 hours in 2025 I heard. But he did stay current as far as sim PPC etc. Last I heard was going into the training department

[Cypresshill]

Going into the training department? Probably because he may not have a valid medical. If true, at least it’s not std/ltd.

Training department is starting to have quite a few TPs with no medical for various reasons. You don’t need a RAIC either apparently.

[piedpiper]

Going into the training department? Probably because he may not have a valid medical. If true, at least it’s not std/ltd.

Training department is starting to have quite a few TPs with no medical for various reasons. You don’t need a RAIC either apparently.

Interesting, because all the AC buildings where the Jazz sims are now being relocated to are RAIC access only unless you're a contractor. RAIC is a condition of full time employment at Jazz and at AC. If they are making special considerations for some, that would be interesting to know.

[Cypresshill]

No doubt it will be interesting to see how they handle the individual that seems too special to hold to the standards everyone else is held to, and is raic-less since quite some time.

Hadn’t contemplated the scenario you have brought up with all the sims moving to RAIC access-only AC areas. Also highly probable AC has no idea of this “deal” that was made ( in secrecy it seems) years ago, yet.

[piedpiper]

Yeah isn't there some current SIM instructor that had a run in with the law and lost their RAIC?

I guess I can see why they might be able to access the CAE side in YYZ. But they won't be able to get into the AC side there, or in Vancouver. Everything is very tightly controlled now, with RAIC scan in and out across all AC real estate.

It's funny how at Jazz it seems cast offs go to the training department, whereas at AC it's actually a pretty tightly controlled position. They don't just hand it out to anyone who has issues with RAIC of health problems.

[Cypresshill]

To answer your first question: yes there is. They’re a union rep who always, always voted in favour of the previous chairman….wonder why lol. Servitude, I mean gratitude most likely lol.

I wouldn’t go so far as to say cast offs populate the training depart. There’s a couple jerks in there for sure but probably no more than anywhere else.

I just don’t understand why such precedents would be desirable (no medical, no raic) for the company. No medical? Excellent benefits when you’re off. But hey, do they have enough spots for everyone who wants to do this? (Rhetorical)

No raic? ( only one in this situation I think) Who is overriding the standard decision makers (TC) on this? Seems like opening yourself up to potential problems/liabilities of all kinds, as a company. Also, pilot having issues getting a raic at Jazz now has a precedent to point to.

Or maybe they’re about to be a “contractor” or the next office manager lol.

[Nick678]

Anyways, what’s the going with the new Chair in regards this shit show?

[Canoehead]

I guess I can see why they might be able to access the CAE side in YYZ. But they won't be able to get into the AC side there, or in Vancouver. Everything is very tightly controlled now, with RAIC scan in and out across all AC real estate

There will not be any issues with any Jazz instructors accessing the AC side.

It's funny how at Jazz it seems cast offs go to the training department, whereas at AC it's actually a pretty tightly controlled position. They don't just hand it out to anyone who has issues with RAIC of health problems.

What is a cast off? And define tightly controlled position? Do you know what the process is at Jazz?

Just curious.

[cdnavater]

Yeah isn't there some current SIM instructor that had a run in with the law and lost their RAIC?

I guess I can see why they might be able to access the CAE side in YYZ. But they won't be able to get into the AC side there, or in Vancouver. Everything is very tightly controlled now, with RAIC scan in and out across all AC real estate.

It's funny how at Jazz it seems cast offs go to the training department, whereas at AC it's actually a pretty tightly controlled position. They don't just hand it out to anyone who has issues with RAIC of health problems.

FYI, any non medical instructors were in the department before and came back when it was all hands on deck, with exception to two that I can think of on the RJ, those two were brought in but only taught in the IPT until they had a medical reinstated. They were brought in when we were also using retired Jazz pilots as contract instructors, who were also previous instructors before they retired.

[Avcanada123]

Anyways, what’s the going with the new Chair in regards this shit show?

Still no update on the ULP? Wasn't there a meeting end of February?

[cdnavater]

Anyways, what’s the going with the new Chair in regards this shit show?

Still no update on the ULP? Wasn't there a meeting end of February?

As far as I’m concerned the ULP is dead, essentially the last information was that the ULP was not the appropriate avenue for the issues, so not in our favour. Suggested avenues for remedy were grievance and common employer, which the MEC at that time were reviewing and talking to lawyers and would advise after that review.
We now have a new MEC who stated that their preference would be a negotiation, to which I say, good luck, that had produced nothing throughout the process so I’m not sure how they think something will magically change! Oh well, expect nothing for the wrongs of the past and therefore nothing to deter AC and Jazz from future violations, the game is definitely rigged!