The FAA Plans To Enforce Merit-Based Hiring Standards

[CpnCrunch]

sexual dimorphism

That was point 2 in BPF's post.

The irony is that in your anti-woke anger, we're not actually disagreeing with you. You just seem to love getting angry about this. I'm guessing you get even more angry about trans people.

[Red_Comet]

No thanks, I'm not interested in co-existing with white nationalists.

Oh believe me, they agree with you. And if you keep at it, you're going to realize why the current western liberal democratic epoch is such a rare period in human history. Have you ever wondered why non-Europeans are even allowed into Western countries? Does your brain have any capacity for rational thinking? Does Saudi Arabia allow anyone to just show up and become a citizen with full legal rights? Does China? Does anywhere?

No, it's only western liberal democracies that are by definition the least racist countries on the planet that allow this. Ironically, those very same immigrants who receive their full equality before the law in a WESTERN country then turn around and accuse their hosts of RACISM! China doesn't have these problems, because they won't let your ungrateful asses in in the first place!

It never gets old seeing this play out in real time. If the west is so racist, WHY ARE YOU HERE? Oh...because it's the only place generous enough to treat EVERYONE as equal before the law regardless of origin. But like ungrateful spoiled kids, you keep pushing for special privileges which goes against the very nature of western liberal democracy. And funnily enough, we are seeing tribal politics take off in Canada, as expected. Tribal politics are why the rest of the world won't let you in, and never manage to build anything worthwhile.

I'm not patient enough to explain this diplomatically, because I love this country and it pains me too much to see it destroyed by tribalism. But like I said, keep banging that DEI drum. "White nationalists" were the norm throughout all human history, and you are guaranteeing a return to that Darwinian jungle by promoting DEI tribalism at every turn.

[Red_Comet]

sexual dimorphism

That was point 2 in BPF's post.

The irony is that in your anti-woke anger, we're not actually disagreeing with you. You just seem to love getting angry about this. I'm guessing you get even more angry about trans people.

Look chief, I'm just basking in the warm nostalgia of a 90s forum flamewar. This is the only piece of Canada I have left.

I could care less what people do to their genitals. I'd prefer not to pay for it, nor have it pushed on my kids, but we can't all have what we want.

AI will make all this nonsense moot, and I will watch your post-AI careers with great interest to see what you Einsteins get up to when your services are no longer required. I am looking forward to some peace and quiet enforced by Elon's army of Optimus bots. I really don't enjoy interacting with morons, contrary to what you may think based on my participation in this retro slum.

[pelmet]

About 90 % of the Canadian airline pilots are white males. White males represent about 32% of the entire Canadian population. So is the fact that 90 % of the pilots are white males due to

1) Only White males are good enough to he pilots, or

2) Only a very small percentage of the 68% of the Canadian population that is not a white male wants to be a pilot, or

3) There are industry hiring biases conscious or unconscious that select for white males.

I don't know the answer but it would seem to me asking the question is not unreasonable. Unfortunately this issue like so many other important ones has now been captured by the culture wars.

Why are so many people incapable of reasoning beyond mindless statistics.

They refuse to accept the reality that women are just not nearly as interested in certain jobs.

They have never once seen a female garbage collector and have probably never seen a female plumber, roofer, pest control person, etc. The reason is obvious yet that can't extrapolate that to other careers. Meanwhile, most of Canada' visible minority population has arrived in the last 20 years and they are almost all not going to be starting out as a career as a pilot. Most arrive poor and that is just the way it is.

My grandfather arrived poor and spent a career cutting cloth in a garment factory. He didn't have money to go to school to become a doctor or a lawyer.

Yet the thought process continues with the It Must be Discrimination lies(or incapable thought process).

So, how about the answer being #4, which was just explained to you.


Speaking of conscious bias....I thought I might post a link straight from the employer of the person that I am responding to.....Looks like those brainwashing courses they are forcing you to sit through are achieving their goal.

https://www.canada.ca/en/privy-council/ ... anada.html

[goldeneagle]

They have never once seen a female garbage collector and have probably never seen a female plumber, roofer, pest control person, etc. The reason is obvious yet that can't extrapolate that to other careers.

Had a bathroom renovation done here last year, both the plumber and the electrician on that job were women, tile setter and carpenter were men. Later in the fall we had a heat pump system installed, hvac crew of 4 came out. 2 guys and one gal doing the hvac, and a gal doing the wiring, another electrician. On the other crew, one of the men was the 'red seal' guy, the other two were apprentices working toward a red seal.

If you haven't seen women in those jobs in your area, maybe it's because the apprenticeship programs are not open to them in your area.

FWIW, the garbage truck that comes by here is often being driven by a woman, and if you go up to the transfer station, more than half the crew is women.

[cdnavater]

They have never once seen a female garbage collector and have probably never seen a female plumber, roofer, pest control person, etc. The reason is obvious yet that can't extrapolate that to other careers.

Had a bathroom renovation done here last year, both the plumber and the electrician on that job were women, tile setter and carpenter were men. Later in the fall we had a heat pump system installed, hvac crew of 4 came out. 2 guys and one gal doing the hvac, and a gal doing the wiring, another electrician. On the other crew, one of the men was the 'red seal' guy, the other two were apprentices working toward a red seal.

If you haven't seen women in those jobs in your area, maybe it's because the apprenticeship programs are not open to them in your area.

FWIW, the garbage truck that comes by here is often being driven by a woman, and if you go up to the transfer station, more than half the crew is women.

Haven’t seen it too often but it does happen, I would be willing to bet that there are more female pilots than electricians and plumbers combined but happy to be wrong about that.
After posting I decided to see what I could find and essentially the most recent census data has all three, pilots, plumbers and electricians equally represented at 5% female

[pelmet]

They have never once seen a female garbage collector and have probably never seen a female plumber, roofer, pest control person, etc. The reason is obvious yet that can't extrapolate that to other careers.

Had a bathroom renovation done here last year, both the plumber and the electrician on that job were women, tile setter and carpenter were men. Later in the fall we had a heat pump system installed, hvac crew of 4 came out. 2 guys and one gal doing the hvac, and a gal doing the wiring, another electrician. On the other crew, one of the men was the 'red seal' guy, the other two were apprentices working toward a red seal.

If you haven't seen women in those jobs in your area, maybe it's because the apprenticeship programs are not open to them in your area.

FWIW, the garbage truck that comes by here is often being driven by a woman, and if you go up to the transfer station, more than half the crew is women.

How about that......In golden eagles world, half the trash collectors, HVAC wiring, and electricians appear to be women now. How convenient and predictable. I must be blind to the realities of the world outside of utopia.

Perhaps he can explain this disparity that the DEI types never mention.....

AI search "In the United States, approximately 5,000 to 5,300 fatal work injuries occur annually, with a significant gender disparity where males account for 92%–96% of these deaths. In 2024, there were 5,070 total fatalities, with men representing 96% of the cases and women 8.1% (413), driven by higher-risk occupations.

Key Findings on Workplace Deaths (US)
Total Fatalities (2024): 5,070 (a 4% decrease from 2023).
Male vs. Female Percentage: Males account for consistently over 90% of all fatalities.
Risk Disparity: Men are over 20 times more likely to die at work than women, with fatal injury rates for men being over nine times higher than for women.

Perhaps in his utopia locale, the numbers are reversed. I'll call equality when the numbers even out. And maybe there is a very legitimate reason for that nasty pay disparity they always whine about.

[pelmet]

After posting I decided to see what I could find and essentially the most recent census data has all three, pilots, plumbers and electricians equally represented at 5% female

If we can accept that women are a lot less interested in plumbing without controversy, why all the backlash in stating the same about a piloting career as an explanation?

Because the DEI types want to reserve the glory jobs for themselves and leave the dirty jobs to those unfairly denied a glory career based on gender and race.

Nice to see merit returning to aviation hiring in the US.

[Information_Papa]

I'm just here to say the N word...


"Neighbor"

[lostav8r]

After posting I decided to see what I could find and essentially the most recent census data has all three, pilots, plumbers and electricians equally represented at 5% female

If we can accept that women are a lot less interested in plumbing without controversy, why all the backlash in stating the same about a piloting career as an explanation?

Because the DEI types want to reserve the glory jobs for themselves and leave the dirty jobs to those unfairly denied a glory career based on gender and race.

Nice to see merit returning to aviation hiring in the US.

Women don’t work in plumbing because they’re too smart! I value plumbers but it’s insane to me driving around all day in traffic just to show up to a customer who is mad they had to book you 3 days ahead or pay $800 for a repair that will last the life of the house.

Once you get past the first few years flying is incredibly lucrative but holy @#$! is it a cringy environment if you’re someone with a modicum of emotional intelligence or aren’t a right wing person!

[fliter]

They refuse to accept the reality that women are just not nearly as interested in certain jobs.

They have never once seen a female garbage collector and have probably never seen a female plumber, roofer, pest control person, etc. The reason is obvious yet that can't extrapolate that to other careers.

Inherent preferences certainly are a thing; however, I am always amused at how people use "garbage collector" as an illustration that women are just not interested in certain jobs. The assumption being that garbage collector is such an undesirable and easily accessible occupation that anyone with any inkling of interest in it would be able to get in just fine, and systemic oppression couldn't possibly be a contributing factor in the lack of representation of certain demographics. I invite those people to google stories of female garbage collectors to realize that it is definitely very much a factor.

Last time this discussion came up, others (maybe even you?) used "horses" as an example of inherent preferences (implying that women are inherently into horses and men aren't) which is hilarious because it's exactly the opposite as riding horses was a predominantly male activity for the longest time, and still is in many parts of the world.

[fliter]

I've also personally spoken to a female plumbing apprentice who quit because she found the professional environment extremely hostile to women. She was sad about having to quit because she really enjoyed the actual job.

[pelmet]

They refuse to accept the reality that women are just not nearly as interested in certain jobs.

They have never once seen a female garbage collector and have probably never seen a female plumber, roofer, pest control person, etc. The reason is obvious yet that can't extrapolate that to other careers.

Inherent preferences certainly are a thing; however, I am always amused at how people use "garbage collector" as an illustration that women are just not interested in certain jobs. The assumption being that garbage collector is such an undesirable and easily accessible occupation that anyone with any inkling of interest in it would be able to get in just fine, and systemic oppression couldn't possibly be a contributing factor in the lack of representation of certain demographics. I invite those people to google stories of female garbage collectors to realize that it is definitely very much a factor.

Last time this discussion came up, others (maybe even you?) used "horses" as an example of inherent preferences (implying that women are inherently into horses and men aren't) which is hilarious because it's exactly the opposite as riding horses was a predominantly male activity for the longest time, and still is in many parts of the world.

Perhaps the idea of massively sweating and freezing outdoors is actually attractive to women along with dumping cans of maggot and fly infested refuse into a stinking garbage truck. Silly me to think that this would not attract more women. In reality, it doesn't attract very many people but men are much more willing to bite the bullet and do the job than women. In other words, a lot more women will outright refuse to do that job than men when push comes to shove, even if the monetary reward is reasonable.

As for the horse subject, I believe that I did mention this once. Why do so many harm their credibility by making emotional(but uninformed) arguments instead of just accepting reality. Maybe read this article to understand better that women are more attracted to horses than men....

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog ... es-so-much

Even the women know that it is true about horse attraction. Why live in denial.

As for the many other parts of the world argument for horses, perhaps give some examples(male dominated Middle East perhaps where a veil must be worn?). As for predominantly male activity for the longest time.....well, when you have a large part of the military and police forces of old being on horses, you will have it dominated by men. Times have changed which nullify arguments based on different eras. Sure...riding bucking broncos and lassoing cattle is likely male dominated. Another job dominated by males. Is that discrimination too?

Bottom line, males and females are frequently much more(or much less) attracted to certain hobbies and careers(or aspects of a particular field). The discrimination angle is just a fraud argument. When see comments on war videos that I watch it is almost all male. When one looks at car and motorcycle enthusiasts, it is mostly men, when one looms at train and plane enthusiasts(I am talking about serious enthusiasts, it is almost all male). Is this all discrimination?

And here is the sad part for women. Many are being encouraged to get their education in fields that they really are not that interested in but are being subtly pushed to do. Then after a decade or so of the career, when they realize that they made a mistake(and don't like their career choice), it is too late to go back and start in a field where they excel and enjoy. So there are male victims of DEI hiring and female victims of agenda driven, politicized people that are out for their own benefit("See what a good person I am because I increased the number of women in this career field").

[pelmet]

I've also personally spoken to a female plumbing apprentice who quit because she found the professional environment extremely hostile to women. She was sad about having to quit because she really enjoyed the actual job.

I would call that an irrelevant argument. The more important question would be prior to becoming aware of the hostile professional environment.... what was a male/female ratio in her training class. I bet it was tiny, which proves lack of attraction. Assuming that the same professional environments(or similar) were encountered by women entering other fields that they have come to dominate, one would assume that the hostile environments in those other fields did not change the inevitable outcome. Women still flocked to become doctors, lawyers, air traffic controllers but why not plumbers, trash collectors, or pilots? Not as interested in some cases and not as willing to do so in other cases.

[digits_]

I've also personally spoken to a female plumbing apprentice who quit because she found the professional environment extremely hostile to women. She was sad about having to quit because she really enjoyed the actual job.

I have a feeling a lot of men don't like the culture for certain apprentice jobs either. Not everybody appreciates the 'hazing of the new guy' or 'treat the new guy as your personal servant' attitudes.

There's very little detailed data available to determine if this is a widespread gender related issue or just a generally sucky environment.

[fliter]

Well, I just typed up a response, and the forum ate it

Stand by...

[fliter]

Perhaps the idea of massively sweating and freezing outdoors is actually attractive to women along with dumping cans of maggot and fly infested refuse into a stinking garbage truck. Silly me to think that this would not attract more women. In reality, it doesn't attract very many people but men are much more willing to bite the bullet and do the job than women. In other words, a lot more women will outright refuse to do that job than men when push comes to shove, even if the monetary reward is reasonable.

Perhaps so. Fewer women could be interested in a profession AND there could be systemic barriers for those who are interested. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

As for the horse subject, I believe that I did mention this once. Why do so many harm their credibility by making emotional(but uninformed) arguments instead of just accepting reality. Maybe read this article to understand better that women are more attracted to horses than men....

https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog ... es-so-much

And yet for many years it was men who primarily dealt with horses while women stayed away. Moreover, there are plenty of songs and poems about a man's bond with his horse. My point being that human behaviours and institutions are shaped by a mix of built-in preferences (nature) and social factors (nurture), with social factors playing a very significant role, seeing how we are extremely social animals.

Bottom line, males and females are frequently much more(or much less) attracted to certain hobbies and careers(or aspects of a particular field). The discrimination angle is just a fraud argument. When see comments on war videos that I watch it is almost all male. When one looks at car and motorcycle enthusiasts, it is mostly men, when one looms at train and plane enthusiasts(I am talking about serious enthusiasts, it is almost all male). Is this all discrimination?

I am sure it's not ALL discrimination. However, what percentage of it IS discrimination (or, more broadly, social factors - it's not always overt discrimination). You seem to be certain it is zero - but how can you be so sure? It is, in fact, extremely difficult to separate effects of nature from those of nurture. That's why biology love twin/sibling studies. They love to look at twins reared together vs twins separated in early childhood (same genes, different environment). Or at twins reared together vs non-twin siblings vs adoptees reared together (same environment, different percentage of shared genes). Without such studies we wouldn't even know to what extent things like IQ or various personality traits are "built-in" vs environmentally shaped. So when it comes to the scale of a whole society, you don't have a control group that was raised free from gender norms, so how can you say that all statistical differences between the two sexes are strictly from genetics?

And here is the sad part for women. Many are being encouraged to get their education in fields that they really are not that interested in but are being subtly pushed to do. Then after a decade or so of the career, when they realize that they made a mistake(and don't like their career choice), it is too late to go back and start in a field where they excel and enjoy. So there are male victims of DEI hiring and female victims of agenda driven, politicized people that are out for their own benefit("See what a good person I am because I increased the number of women in this career field").

No doubt people are sometimes pushed into careers that aren't a great match. However, I doubt that most of it is due to DEI. I think it's primarily things like money, prestige or, ironically, traditional gender/cultural/class norms. This last factor pushes in the direction opposite to DEI, and I would be surprised if, on the balance, the DEI push was stronger. Do you have any hard data to support this hunch of yours?

[fliter]

I've also personally spoken to a female plumbing apprentice who quit because she found the professional environment extremely hostile to women. She was sad about having to quit because she really enjoyed the actual job.

I would call that an irrelevant argument. The more important question would be prior to becoming aware of the hostile professional environment.... what was a male/female ratio in her training class. I bet it was tiny, which proves lack of attraction. Assuming that the same professional environments(or similar) were encountered by women entering other fields that they have come to dominate, one would assume that the hostile environments in those other fields did not change the inevitable outcome. Women still flocked to become doctors, lawyers, air traffic controllers but why not plumbers, trash collectors, or pilots? Not as interested in some cases and not as willing to do so in other cases.

First of all, the tiny ratio could be due to girls not even realizing this career field is open to them. Gender norms and influences get ingrained very early on. Secondly, as stated earlier, both things could be true: women could be less interested in plumbing then men AND women who are interested are being discouraged from entering the field. Right now, let's say, 5% of plumbers are female. It's possible that, if social pressures pushing women out of the profession were gone, 20% of plumbers would be female. So, while women may be on average indeed less interested in becoming plumbers, and relatively few of them would choose the profession if the barriers were removed, still you might end up with several times the current numbers.

As to why some male-dominated professions became more female and others did not, it could certainly in part be due to inherent preferences. But it could also be due to different degrees and types of hostility encountered by women in those environments, as different fields have different cultural norms. This is like asking why some countries have managed a complete economic transformation in the last few decades, becoming economic powerhouses, while others are still struggling, despite starting at the same point and being influenced by the same economic factors. Or why two countries started out authoritarian but one managed to overthrow their dictator and become a democracy while another didn't. These things are too complicated to be reduced to just one factor.

[fliter]

There's very little detailed data available to determine if this is a widespread gender related issue or just a generally sucky environment.

Bingo!

That's actually exactly what I am trying to say.

I don't agree with pushing for equal representation for all demographics; it is ridiculous to suggest that inherent preference plays no role in career selection.

I also don't agree that the differences in sex ratios in different professions that we are seeing right now are all due to inherent preference, and social pressures/barriers are no longer an issue for any occupation. We simply don't have the data to say this with any kind of certainty.

Unfortunately, like with so many things, it seems to no longer be possible to have any nuance when discussing this topic. People just want to know if you are in the "woke" camp or the "alt-right" camp. Extreme polarization of society kills meaningful discourse.

[fliter]

In reality, it doesn't attract very many people but men are much more willing to bite the bullet and do the job than women. In other words, a lot more women will outright refuse to do that job than men when push comes to shove, even if the monetary reward is reasonable.

Again, I think you are not very familiar with garbage collection and are using it as some kind of generic "undesirable, will hire anyone" type job. It's actually not. Garbage collection is typically unionized and the workers make decent money for a job requiring no education. So what is your source for saying it doesn't attract many people? Municipalities seem to have no issues staffing waste management departments.

It's probably not many people's dream job the way pilot is, but I would argue that's true for the vast majority of jobs.

[fliter]

Duplicate post, apologies

[fliter]

How about that......In golden eagles world, half the trash collectors, HVAC wiring, and electricians appear to be women now. How convenient and predictable. I must be blind to the realities of the world outside of utopia.

This is not utopia, but it could actually be an example of how local culture at a particular workplace/field becomes enough of an influence to override the opposing influences of a broader society/industry influences. Which is evidence in favours of social influences having a huge impact on human behaviour.

[oldnbold]

1) Only White males are good enough to he pilots, or

It's not about race or sex. That's actually the whole problem people have with DEI. It's about picking the best candidates for the job without race or gender changing the decision to someone "good enough". Hire the best person for the job. It's just that simple! Not radical at all, though some are people are really trying make it seem that way. Often that best person is a woman or person of colour. I've certainly flown with many of them! I always felt bad that they are subject to people wondering if they got that seat because of how great they are or because of how they look.

DEI is racism and sexism.

[pelmet]

Perhaps so. Fewer women could be interested in a profession AND there could be systemic barriers for those who are interested. Those two things are not mutually exclusive.

Could be this, could be that. A person could come up with all kinds of "coulds" with no actual evidence to back any of it up. I call DEI actual evidence of systemic barriers......to those who are never mentioned in it.

And yet for many years it was men who primarily dealt with horses while women stayed away. Moreover, there are plenty of songs and poems about a man's bond with his horse. My point being that human behaviours and institutions are shaped by a mix of built-in preferences (nature) and social factors (nurture), with social factors playing a very significant role, seeing how we are extremely social animals.

It was men in the past for the same reason that it was all men that were doctors in the past. But now, I hear that female doctors(under age 40) exceed male doctors. What changed? Society changed and now we get an accurate picture of what females want and what they don't want. They want certain high paying careers(as seen in the link below) at a much greater rate than others(such as piloting).

https://www.businessinsider.com/pink-co ... men-2015-2

Songs and poems are irrelevant to reality. The reality is that in the modern era, women are by far more attracted to horses while males are far more attracted to things like motorcycles. To quote the Ph.d in the psychology article....

"in most areas that have anything to do with horses, women are much more common than men. In both the USA and Great Britain, over 90% of horse owners are women. Three out of 4 students enrolled in riding schools in Europe are women. The first woman to be an horse veterinarian wasn't until 1957 and now 4 out of 5 of equine veterinary graduates are women." which simply shows that in the modern era where equality was achieved, women now have a choice outside the home and they choose horses way ore than men. Just like in aviation careers, they choose ATC way ore than piloting. Why, because way less want a piloting career.

I am sure it's not ALL discrimination. However, what percentage of it IS discrimination (or, more broadly, social factors - it's not always overt discrimination).

I deleted the long, meaningless stuff about twins that you posted(it appears that with a large number of posts, there may be an attempt to overwhelm the discussion).

I would say the social factors are discriminatory against men such as when United Airlines says that they are targeting 50% women or similar. The social reality is that there are literally thousands of programs to hire women where they are under-represented but near zero programs to hire men in fields where men are under-represented.

Here is a quote from a site that is big on DEI with a quote justifying it. "Despite her concerns, statistics reveal that white males make up 88.3% of the aviation profession. However, efforts to consciously hire diverse pilots aim to dismantle this barrier without compromising training standards, fostering a more inclusive environment for individuals of all genders and racial backgrounds."

What does that prove? That the DEI idea is to "consciously hire diverse pilots" while the non-bigots aim to consciously hire the best(with a willingness that all hires could be black women or all hires could be white males, depending on who is the best).

[pelmet]

I've also personally spoken to a female plumbing apprentice who quit because she found the professional environment extremely hostile to women. She was sad about having to quit because she really enjoyed the actual job.

I would call that an irrelevant argument. The more important question would be prior to becoming aware of the hostile professional environment.... what was a male/female ratio in her training class. I bet it was tiny, which proves lack of attraction. Assuming that the same professional environments(or similar) were encountered by women entering other fields that they have come to dominate, one would assume that the hostile environments in those other fields did not change the inevitable outcome. Women still flocked to become doctors, lawyers, air traffic controllers but why not plumbers, trash collectors, or pilots? Not as interested in some cases and not as willing to do so in other cases.

First of all, the tiny ratio could be due to girls not even realizing this career field is open to them. Gender norms and influences get ingrained very early on.

Females know that every career is open to them now. Can we stop the intentional lies? Do you honestly think that somehow, there were only career fairs in the last 30 years that were only for men to get into aviation. In fact, it is the exact opposite with Women In Aviation all over the place. If anything, it is the exact opposite.

Gender norms are biological. They happen prior to birth. They are also what has created successful civilization over the millennia. The clothes that you in particular wear and don't wear every day are gender norms. It is not discrimination.

It is amazing how the DEI types come up with endless excuses instead of actually asking some females in lower paying jobs that they know as to why they did not choose a career as a mechanic working in grease, a career in stinky plumbing, or a better paying job in trash collecting. Perhaps a large percentage will tell you that there is no damn way they would ever consider such a thing, despite the extra money.

Try it and see the reaction and get back to us with real world answers. Then you will understand that there is a different thought process.

By the way....a good article by a woman interviewing a woman as to the reason a higher percentage of women leave high paying careers(which results in lower male/female ratios). It is not the evil discrimination lie, it is the reality of different goals in life...

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20 ... -interview

Can we stop the DEI discrimination lies now?