Descend VIA bottom altitude question

[JungleRiot]

Recently I was flying in to PHX and was given “descend VIA BRUSR 1” and would be expecting rwy 08 on the ATIS. I initially set 6000 in the MCP window as my bottom altitude, since PGSKN is 6000 hard on the plate. If you look at the transition for rwy 08, JAMIL is 4000 and above. But JAMIL is also a radar fix just before the FAF for 08 and since I haven’t technically been cleared for the approach yet, I argued that 6000 should be the bottom altitude set for descent VIA, not 4000.
Is this correct?
Cheers.

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[Hangry]

Recently I was flying in to PHX and was given “descend VIA BRUSR 1” and would be expecting rwy 08 on the ATIS. I initially set 6000 in the MCP window as my bottom altitude, since PGSKN is 6000 hard on the plate. If you look at the transition for rwy 08, JAMIL is 4000 and above. But JAMIL is also a radar fix just before the FAF for 08 and since I haven’t technically been cleared for the approach yet, I argued that 6000 should be the bottom altitude set for descent VIA, not 4000.
Is this correct?
Cheers.

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Crossing Jamil at 4000 or above is the correct response. Jamil being a radar fix is irrelevant. The approach chart has nothing to do with decending Via clearance.
Set 4000. Says so right on the arrival plate.

[rudder]

A proper US ATC clearance will be “descend via the BRUSR 1 arrival - runway 08 transition”. So your altitude clearance limit is the lowest altitude on the STAR page including the transition. In this case 4000’ with lateral guidance track 108 degrees after JAMIL.

The only other possible clearance phraseology would be “landing west” or “landing east” or “landing north” or “landing south” as opposed to a specific runway if that is referenced as applicable on the particular STAR. You will then find further details or instructions in the comments box. It may instruct you to program a specific runway in the FMS as opposed to what may be referenced in the ATIS.

Good luck.

[Core]

I'm more confused at how JAMIL inbound for 08 is both track of 108⁰ but also straight in at 78⁰ on the loc.

[PostmasterGeneral]

I'm more confused at how JAMIL inbound for 08 is both track of 108⁰ but also straight in at 78⁰ on the loc.

Seriously? Its an approach transition. This stuff is covered in basic IFR.

Set 4000'. The hard 6000' should be coded in the FMS, after which the descent will continue to 4000'.

[airway]

A proper US ATC clearance will be “descend via the BRUSR 1 arrival - runway 08 transition”. So your altitude clearance limit is the lowest altitude on the STAR page including the transition. In this case 4000’ with lateral guidance track 108 degrees after JAMIL.

The only other possible clearance phraseology would be “landing west” or “landing east” or “landing north” or “landing south” as opposed to a specific runway if that is referenced as applicable on the particular STAR. You will then find further details or instructions in the comments box. It may instruct you to program a specific runway in the FMS as opposed to what may be referenced in the ATIS.

Good luck.

Agreed. This was a poor clearance and should have been questioned. It should have included "landing east" or "expect R/W 08" if he wanted you to go down to 4000 ft. Was there any other R/W active on the ATIS? In this case it didn't matter as all the transitions were to 4000 ft, but it does matter for other transitions that don't have the same altitudes for all runways.

[Core]

Hey Postmaster why the attitude? Did you mean to quote the original poster and not me? I wasn't asking about the altitude, I haven't flown to major airports in the US very much, never been to Phoenix, and I'm wondering how JAMIL can appear to have 2 different tracks after it for 08.
According to the STAR plate notes, you'd continue on a track of 108 after JAMIL for RV for 08.
Yet on the approach plate, JAMIL is on the loc, straight in on 078.
These 2 things don't compute for me so perhaps you can explain it if it's so basic. Thank you.

[digits_]

According to the STAR plate notes, you'd continue on a track of 108 after JAMIL for RV for 08.
Yet on the approach plate, JAMIL is on the loc, straight in on 078.

It's likely your STAR will be cancelled before you reach JAMIL. If not,it likely means they can't give you an approach yet and so you fly 108 after JAMIL until you get radar vectors. That way you're not clogging up the approach path. Most likely you'll get your approach clearance before JAMIL.

[Blackdog0301]

The fact that you are coming onto a public forum to ask a very basic IFR question is concerning. I don't care enough to go looking at your post history to figure out if you are working at a 705, but I truly hope you aren't. If you are truly that clueless on what to do in this scenario, you should be contacting either a Standards Pilot or a Chief Pilot to ask. But I think that you're already embarrassed that you don't know this answer, so you decide to post it here.

[Pratt X 3]

The fact that you are coming onto a public forum to ask a very basic IFR question is concerning. I don't care enough to go looking at your post history to figure out if you are working at a 705, but I truly hope you aren't. If you are truly that clueless on what to do in this scenario, you should be contacting either a Standards Pilot or a Chief Pilot to ask. But I think that you're already embarrassed that you don't know this answer, so you decide to post it here.

Easy there Big Shoots. No need to bully the kid to make yourself feel better about yourself. Better someone asks for clarification then for them to be afraid to speak up. Even when things appear to be black and white, there can be some grey mixed in that should be discussed.

[pelmet]

The fact that you are coming onto a public forum to ask a very basic IFR question is concerning. I don't care enough to go looking at your post history to figure out if you are working at a 705, but I truly hope you aren't. If you are truly that clueless on what to do in this scenario, you should be contacting either a Standards Pilot or a Chief Pilot to ask. But I think that you're already embarrassed that you don't know this answer, so you decide to post it here.

Don't be embarrassed by the jerks that harass you. They have all done stupid stuff and just don't admit it.

4000 is the bottom altitude as it is the lowest altitude on the STAR. Because of chart scaling and waypoints close to each other, an inset has been created for you, so you don't need to use a magnifying glass.

108 degrees is the clearance and it is what it is. It does seem a little odd that JAMIL is on the approach and the STAR clearance is to fly through the approach but that is what it is. I see that the com failure box does say to intercept final approach. If it turns out that it is so busy that you somehow did not get a clearance to intercept final, one might consider doing it anyways, but the clearance is to fly through the loc(situation has probably never happened). You have TCAS, so it is unlikely that there will be a collision. It looks like the arrivals for 7L/R have a diverging course if they have the same issue.

[DanWEC]

4000 is the final altitude on the STAR before it terminates to vectors. That's it. Clear as day, besides being in an enlargement box.
You might be with a Center controller, or even Terminal, that has no mandate or knowledge of runways beyond changing the STAR for flow East or West, and regardless it's the same alt for all rwys on that STAR landing East.

As for the other guy's question about the vectors, yeah it's not picture perfect, but you'll be 1000' above vectored landing traffic, and if they're vectoring, which I assume is pretty unlikely unless IROPS, you'd likely be sent out for a right downwind.

I don't know the wording they'd give you there, every airport has their own little standard procedures, but you'd probably get an "Expect ILS 08 at jamil" or a "Cleared ILS 08 AT or VIA jamil" in advance.
Not sure how FMS's vary, but you may have a discontinuity similar to a DTW, since that STAR does technically end with vectors (The arrow hatched line on the chart) and you'd just close it up when cleared prior.
That being said, I can't remember the last time I was in KPHX.

Safe flights.

[Blackdog0301]

The fact that you are coming onto a public forum to ask a very basic IFR question is concerning. I don't care enough to go looking at your post history to figure out if you are working at a 705, but I truly hope you aren't. If you are truly that clueless on what to do in this scenario, you should be contacting either a Standards Pilot or a Chief Pilot to ask. But I think that you're already embarrassed that you don't know this answer, so you decide to post it here.

Easy there Big Shoots. No need to bully the kid to make yourself feel better about yourself. Better someone asks for clarification then for them to be afraid to speak up. Even when things appear to be black and white, there can be some grey mixed in that should be discussed.

Right, but ask for clarification from someone who knows the SOP's that this person uses. You can't simply tell the guy/girl that they're good to set 4000 into the MCP. What if they're in Open Descent/Level Change/Vertical Speed instead of Managed Descent/VNAV PTH? Well then 6000 is the proper altitude to set until you get another mode selected... Or maybe even a higher altitude depending on where they are on the arrival! This isn't nessesarily a black and white question, and coming onto a forum asking for guidance from users that may or may not even have an instrument rating, or even a pilots license for that matter isn't the best use of resources.

[altiplano]

@#$! guys... it's Pheonix... You're going to get a visual..

**# of days with cloud ceilings below 3000' ≤15**

[co-joe]

I'm more confused at how JAMIL inbound for 08 is both track of 108⁰ but also straight in at 78⁰ on the loc.

I believe it's because you can use JAMIL to transition to any of the 3 runways, so for instance you could be cleared to descend via the Bruiser 1 Jamil transition 7Right. FOWLE appears to be the only fix that's limited to 7L, whereas either of the other two could potentially be for any of the 3 runways. PHX is dumb, I've done more glideslope intercepts from above there than all the other airports I've flown into combined, and I've done two missed approaches there from absolutely stupid vectors to final. Sometimes the vectors are so bad there I think they're just Fuking with us for the fun or it.

[PostmasterGeneral]

Hey Postmaster why the attitude? Did you mean to quote the original poster and not me? I wasn't asking about the altitude, I haven't flown to major airports in the US very much, never been to Phoenix, and I'm wondering how JAMIL can appear to have 2 different tracks after it for 08.
According to the STAR plate notes, you'd continue on a track of 108 after JAMIL for RV for 08.
Yet on the approach plate, JAMIL is on the loc, straight in on 078.
These 2 things don't compute for me so perhaps you can explain it if it's so basic. Thank you.

Yes, I was responding to you. The inbound track to JAMIL is 108* on the STAR. The outbound has you established on the ILS. It's not a US airport thing, it's common on many many closed STARS and is general IFR knowledge.

[digits_]

Hey Postmaster why the attitude? Did you mean to quote the original poster and not me? I wasn't asking about the altitude, I haven't flown to major airports in the US very much, never been to Phoenix, and I'm wondering how JAMIL can appear to have 2 different tracks after it for 08.
According to the STAR plate notes, you'd continue on a track of 108 after JAMIL for RV for 08.
Yet on the approach plate, JAMIL is on the loc, straight in on 078.
These 2 things don't compute for me so perhaps you can explain it if it's so basic. Thank you.

Yes, I was responding to you. The inbound track to JAMIL is 108* on the STAR. The outbound has you established on the ILS. It's not a US airport thing, it's common on many many closed STARS and is general IFR knowledge.

The outbound on Jamil on the star is also 108. You're not established on the ILS if you follow the STAR.
Not a big deal, but also not surprising that people find this weird.

I wouldn't call this a closed star. It technically ends with radar vectors.

[careerpilot?]

It's open STAR vs closed STAR. Because of the arrows we know this is an open STAR, though some of the confusion may be due to the depiction being slightly different on Jepp plates then we are used to on NavCanada plates. Effectively as others have said, it's an open STAR - if not cleared for the approach, continue tracking outbound on 108 and wait for vectors. If cleared for the approach via JAMIL transition, remove the discontinuity / (VECT) from the FMS flight plan and transition directly onto the approach.

I'm unable to find a reference in the FAA AIM for Open / Closed STARs, but the TC AIM explains well (I know this technically doesn't apply in the US, and STAR descent rules / wording from the TC AIM will be different and incorrect in the US, but to my knowledge the handling of open/closed STARS is identical, even if they don't technically call them open / closed):

9.2.3.10 Closed Standard Terminal Arrival (STAR)
Procedures
A closed STAR procedure provides a continuous path from the
en route structure and automatically joins up with the final
approach course. A closed STAR terminates at the FACF. On a
closed STAR, when an approach clearance is received, the pilot
will continue to comply with all published altitude and speed
restrictions, fly the charted track to the FACF, intercept the final
approach course, and fly the straight-in approach. A closed
STAR procedure is normally used when the inbound track is
within plus or minus 90˚ of the final approach course to the
runway.
ATC always strives to issue approach clearances before aircraft
reach the end of closed STARs, but in very rare cases (such as a
distress call in progress on the frequency, frequency congestion,
or high ATC workload), this may not always be possible. In order
to assure obstacle clearance throughout the STAR and the
approach lateral tracks, if an aircraft were to reach the end of a
closed STAR prior to the issuance of an approach clearance, the
pilot would be expected to safely intercept the final approach
course and fly inbound maintaining the last assigned altitude.
In the extremely remote case in which the aircraft reaches the
end of the final approach track and further clearance has still
not been obtained, the pilot would be expected to track the lateral
position of the missed approach procedure for what would have
been the anticipated approach, and maintain the last assigned
altitude or climb to the anticipated missed approach altitude if
the missed approach altitude is higher.

9.2.3.11 Open Standard Terminal Arrival (STAR)
Procedures
Similar to a closed STAR, an open STAR procedure also provides
a continuous path from the en route structure but does not
automatically join up with the final approach course. Open
STARs are charted with an expectation of vectors and essentially
place aircraft in a downwind to simplify approach sequencing.
A STAR can be linked to an approach once ATC has issued an
approach clearance. Unless ATC issues an approach clearance,
aircraft must continue on the STAR procedure while awaiting
ATC instructions. Once an approach clearance is issued, the
pilot is expected to comply with any remaining STAR charted
altitude and speed restrictions, intercept the final approach
course using the assigned transition (or the assigned vectors),
and conduct a straight-in approach. If an approach clearance is
not received prior to the transition that is expected by the pilot,
the aircraft will maintain the STAR as charted, and ATC will
provide vectors to a point from which the aircraft can fly the
straight-in approach.

I'm open to being corrected if I've missed something - I love these kinds of discussions as it gets me back into the books and thinking through different kinds of scenarios!

[Me262]

I'll always put 6000 here

[scdriver]

I'll always put 6000 here

Why not put 4000 as long as you adhere to the 6000 restriction at PGSKN? You’re just adding more work having to set that further descent separately, and I’m sure you’d be questioned if you were crossing JAMIL at 6.

[Me262]

I'll always put 6000 here

Why not put 4000 as long as you adhere to the 6000 restriction at PGSKN? You’re just adding more work having to set that further descent separately, and I’m sure you’d be questioned if you were crossing JAMIL at 6.

Because you get vectors and new altitude

[350driver]

Seems pretty obvious you'll be landing east if you're getting expecting runway 08 on the ATIS. Surely after BRUSR you're not going to head towards PGSKN if you're landing west (unless you have a runway change).

In ANY case, 4000 is the bottom altitude REGARDLESS of which approach you are going to get.

Could be technique from flying all over the world when I was a 380 skipper, but even when flying into the USA (esp mountainous terrain), if I had a descent VIA, I would set the bottom altitude of every fix on the way down for a few reasons.

1. Altitude alerter going off (annoyingly) to remind me to set lower as a means to keep me engaged.
2. If I ever got vectored off the STAR or had to turn due to WX I had the last safe IFR altitude selected in my altitude window (not just blindly selecting 4000 with the expectation bias that I will certainly complete this RNAV star down to 4000 [kind of the same mentality of not being committed to the runway until your reversers pop])
3. If an ECAM or NNC came up during descent, I had the last safe altitude for that sector selected, esp if a hold or vector was going to be given/requested.
4. Was a way to reassess approaching each waypoint if the conditions for continuing lower had been met, and if no changes, that answer was usually yes, and the next IFR altitude would be set.

Might seem like tedious and extra work esp on a VNAV PTH or in my case managed descent profile, but on the same argument, lots of guys have been burned blindly setting the lowest altitude and a parameter in the LNAV track/routing changing, while descending down. Usually caught in a radar environment. But I didn't have the luxury of a union behind me if I bust an altitude after commanding a 15 hour flight

Usually a larger issue flying in latin america, india, africa, but never hurts to be safe.

Also being a 380 skipper has nothing to do with my opinion being right or wrong. It's just how I ran the show and it was quite effective after some of those 15 hour ULR flying, in order to constantly reassess situational awareness especially when fatigue was real amongst us 4 up front.

Hope that helps.

[cdnavater]

Seems pretty obvious you'll be landing east if you're getting expecting runway 08 on the ATIS. Surely after BRUSR you're not going to head towards PGSKN if you're landing west (unless you have a runway change).

In ANY case, 4000 is the bottom altitude REGARDLESS of which approach you are going to get.

Could be technique from flying all over the world when I was a 380 skipper, but even when flying into the USA (esp mountainous terrain), if I had a descent VIA, I would set the bottom altitude of every fix on the way down for a few reasons.

1. Altitude alerter going off (annoyingly) to remind me to set lower as a means to keep me engaged.
2. If I ever got vectored off the STAR or had to turn due to WX I had the last safe IFR altitude selected in my altitude window (not just blindly selecting 4000 with the expectation bias that I will certainly complete this RNAV star down to 4000 [kind of the same mentality of not being committed to the runway until your reversers pop])
3. If an ECAM or NNC came up during descent, I had the last safe altitude for that sector selected, esp if a hold or vector was going to be given/requested.
4. Was a way to reassess approaching each waypoint if the conditions for continuing lower had been met, and if no changes, that answer was usually yes, and the next IFR altitude would be set.

Might seem like tedious and extra work esp on a VNAV PTH or in my case managed descent profile, but on the same argument, lots of guys have been burned blindly setting the lowest altitude and a parameter in the LNAV track/routing changing, while descending down. Usually caught in a radar environment. But I didn't have the luxury of a union behind me if I bust an altitude after commanding a 15 hour flight

Usually a larger issue flying in latin america, india, africa, but never hurts to be safe.

Also being a 380 skipper has nothing to do with my opinion being right or wrong. It's just how I ran the show and it was quite effective after some of those 15 hour ULR flying, in order to constantly reassess situational awareness especially when fatigue was real amongst us 4 up front.

Hope that helps.

Nothing different in the RJ, it is clear 4000’ is the bottom of the STAR and I also set the bottom altitude of the waypoints to A, meet those and B all of the things you said. The NG RJ has a VNAV, the non NG does not but I do the same in either.

[Blackdog0301]

Seems pretty obvious you'll be landing east if you're getting expecting runway 08 on the ATIS. Surely after BRUSR you're not going to head towards PGSKN if you're landing west (unless you have a runway change).

In ANY case, 4000 is the bottom altitude REGARDLESS of which approach you are going to get.

Could be technique from flying all over the world when I was a 380 skipper, but even when flying into the USA (esp mountainous terrain), if I had a descent VIA, I would set the bottom altitude of every fix on the way down for a few reasons.

1. Altitude alerter going off (annoyingly) to remind me to set lower as a means to keep me engaged.
2. If I ever got vectored off the STAR or had to turn due to WX I had the last safe IFR altitude selected in my altitude window (not just blindly selecting 4000 with the expectation bias that I will certainly complete this RNAV star down to 4000 [kind of the same mentality of not being committed to the runway until your reversers pop])
3. If an ECAM or NNC came up during descent, I had the last safe altitude for that sector selected, esp if a hold or vector was going to be given/requested.
4. Was a way to reassess approaching each waypoint if the conditions for continuing lower had been met, and if no changes, that answer was usually yes, and the next IFR altitude would be set.

Might seem like tedious and extra work esp on a VNAV PTH or in my case managed descent profile, but on the same argument, lots of guys have been burned blindly setting the lowest altitude and a parameter in the LNAV track/routing changing, while descending down. Usually caught in a radar environment. But I didn't have the luxury of a union behind me if I bust an altitude after commanding a 15 hour flight

Usually a larger issue flying in latin america, india, africa, but never hurts to be safe.

Also being a 380 skipper has nothing to do with my opinion being right or wrong. It's just how I ran the show and it was quite effective after some of those 15 hour ULR flying, in order to constantly reassess situational awareness especially when fatigue was real amongst us 4 up front.

Hope that helps.

What kind of plane were you flying again? I didn't quite catch that. And you said you were a CAPTAIN?!?! You're so cool. I wish I were like you.

[350driver]

Haha I knew someone would be triggered by it. I should've just said I was a c172 captain then you would've probably accepted the reply better right?

Canadian pilots... seriously some of the best clowns in the world. It's been eye opening coming home to say the least. Some great guys for sure, but a lot of communism (how dare you have it better than me) passive aggressive behavior amongst the beaten dogs on this continent.

Hope it gets better, I'm almost on my way out so I don't really have a motivation in it, but hope to leave it better than I entered it.

The answer is 4000, forget everything else I said.