What's life like as a commuting pilot to start?

[cdnavater]

While that's great cdn...

Here's an idea...

Interview for AC when joining Jazz. Not Jazz. Why are we interviewing for Jazz to fly AC pax? Why is it such a ridiculous system? lol.

Or maybe when guys apply to Jazz, ask them on the application, "HEY DO U WANT TO ALSO GO TO AC AFTER SPENDING 2 YEARS AT JAZZ"?

If buddy answers yes, then make the interview an AC/JAZZ interview.

Then in the interview results you can tell the guys, hey AC doesn't like your face, but we like you. What do you want to do?

Then a guy can know going into Jazz that they're likely not ending up at AC. Then they may choose a VERY different career path.

This rolling the dice on whether a 787 skipper likes your responses, when the difference between YOU and the INTERVIEWER is nothing other than the fact than when you push back, you have 78 AC pax, and they have 282 AC pax... is seriously mind blowing.

Oh well, won't be solved by a post on avcanada. Just feel for the guys that got screwed by some bs paper pusher that had to justify their jobs by pushing this policy.

In a perfect world that could work, however AC won’t interview until 2000ish hours, many Jazz applicants are below that, besides that your interview will be based on experience and without that what do you have to offer. How would a 750 hour c172 instructor do at an AC interview?

[350driver]

While that's great cdn...

Here's an idea...

Interview for AC when joining Jazz. Not Jazz. Why are we interviewing for Jazz to fly AC pax? Why is it such a ridiculous system? lol.

Or maybe when guys apply to Jazz, ask them on the application, "HEY DO U WANT TO ALSO GO TO AC AFTER SPENDING 2 YEARS AT JAZZ"?

If buddy answers yes, then make the interview an AC/JAZZ interview.

Then in the interview results you can tell the guys, hey AC doesn't like your face, but we like you. What do you want to do?

Then a guy can know going into Jazz that they're likely not ending up at AC. Then they may choose a VERY different career path.

This rolling the dice on whether a 787 skipper likes your responses, when the difference between YOU and the INTERVIEWER is nothing other than the fact than when you push back, you have 78 AC pax, and they have 282 AC pax... is seriously mind blowing.

Oh well, won't be solved by a post on avcanada. Just feel for the guys that got screwed by some bs paper pusher that had to justify their jobs by pushing this policy.

In a perfect world that could work, however AC won’t interview until 2000ish hours, many Jazz applicants are below that, besides that your interview will be based on experience and without that what do you have to offer. How would a 750 hour c172 instructor do at an AC interview?

I mean I love these debates because it allows for conversations about progress.

I like your question.

I guess my only response to this is let's remove all the 2000 hours and 750 hour conversations for a second.

When someone is hired at Jazz to fly AC passengers are they not the same responsible for AC's brand as someone working for mainline?

I would say yes, they are just, if not AT TIMES tougher than an AC career.

One would debate that going to Jazz would only make you more experienced before touching mainline machine. Fair enough.

But if the experience sought at Jazz still leads to people getting hired at AC, then one can draw the conclusion that if you're a 'good guy/gal'

You get hired at Jazz level 'by ac' and once you prove competency standards by way of whatever they want (4 PPC's, 4 Line Checks, Whatever)... you get a course date in order of seniority.

Seems like a simple fix to me.

What do you think cdn?

[altiplano]

I would say yes, they are just, if not AT TIMES tougher than an AC career.

No such thing as an "AC career" - at least for most... it's the totality of it.

Jazz to AC career is a pretty fricking easy career. In the scope of career paths in this country there isn't much "tough" in there.

[cdnavater]

While that's great cdn...

Here's an idea...

Interview for AC when joining Jazz. Not Jazz. Why are we interviewing for Jazz to fly AC pax? Why is it such a ridiculous system? lol.

Or maybe when guys apply to Jazz, ask them on the application, "HEY DO U WANT TO ALSO GO TO AC AFTER SPENDING 2 YEARS AT JAZZ"?

If buddy answers yes, then make the interview an AC/JAZZ interview.

Then in the interview results you can tell the guys, hey AC doesn't like your face, but we like you. What do you want to do?

Then a guy can know going into Jazz that they're likely not ending up at AC. Then they may choose a VERY different career path.

This rolling the dice on whether a 787 skipper likes your responses, when the difference between YOU and the INTERVIEWER is nothing other than the fact than when you push back, you have 78 AC pax, and they have 282 AC pax... is seriously mind blowing.

Oh well, won't be solved by a post on avcanada. Just feel for the guys that got screwed by some bs paper pusher that had to justify their jobs by pushing this policy.

In a perfect world that could work, however AC won’t interview until 2000ish hours, many Jazz applicants are below that, besides that your interview will be based on experience and without that what do you have to offer. How would a 750 hour c172 instructor do at an AC interview?

I mean I love these debates because it allows for conversations about progress.

I like your question.

I guess my only response to this is let's remove all the 2000 hours and 750 hour conversations for a second.

When someone is hired at Jazz to fly AC passengers are they not the same responsible for AC's brand as someone working for mainline?

I would say yes, they are just, if not AT TIMES tougher than an AC career.

One would debate that going to Jazz would only make you more experienced before touching mainline machine. Fair enough.

But if the experience sought at Jazz still leads to people getting hired at AC, then one can draw the conclusion that if you're a 'good guy/gal'

You get hired at Jazz level 'by ac' and once you prove competency standards by way of whatever they want (4 PPC's, 4 Line Checks, Whatever)... you get a course date in order of seniority.

Seems like a simple fix to me.

What do you think cdn?

It’s been done, WJE was one interview, no idea if that is still the case and I agree it would be a good way to go, have your career path from Jazz to AC figured out before starting your training at Jazz.
It would take the uncertainty away but that is up to AC and their pilots if that is the way they want to go, I certainly wouldn’t oppose it myself but I don’t have a say in it.

[altiplano]

AC Pilots have zero say on hiring or interviewing at Air Canada. All we have a say on is the seniority list and the deal is to get hired and get a number with your group.

[flieslikeachicken]

It’s been done, WJE was one interview, no idea if that is still the case and I agree it would be a good way to go, have your career path from Jazz to AC figured out before starting your training at Jazz.
It would take the uncertainty away but that is up to AC and their pilots if that is the way they want to go, I certainly wouldn’t oppose it myself but I don’t have a say in it.

• Encore is wholly owned by WestJet whereas Jazz and PAL are not owned by AC.
• Encore pilots are not flowing to WJ, except for a few who have been at the company for 8+ years
• It wasn't negotiated and AC pilots will not want to waste bargaining capital on it.

[Nick678]

AC ignored hiring obligations from Jazz. I would never tell anyone to go to Jazz if your goal is AC. AC burnt that bridge and there’s no trust there anyone.

[cdnavater]

It’s been done, WJE was one interview, no idea if that is still the case and I agree it would be a good way to go, have your career path from Jazz to AC figured out before starting your training at Jazz.
It would take the uncertainty away but that is up to AC and their pilots if that is the way they want to go, I certainly wouldn’t oppose it myself but I don’t have a say in it.

• Encore is wholly owned by WestJet whereas Jazz and PAL are not owned by AC.
• Encore pilots are not flowing to WJ, except for a few who have been at the company for 8+ years
• It wasn't negotiated and AC pilots will not want to waste bargaining capital on it.

I realize that Encore is owned by WJ, all I was saying is that it used to be one interview, the flow is another issue. 8+ years before moving over, that is the industry in a nutshell, you get in a get a seniority number with WJ(old system), you’ll hang on forever rather than start over at the bottom of another list.
I would imagine the Encore list has thinned out somewhat with pilots who gave up waiting for the call that never comes but it would be a tough choice for some to give up!
As for Jazz, the way they have it set up and the trust of AC actually following what they agree to has pilots with any decent experience avoiding it, I don’t blame them!

[careerpilot?]

It’s been done, WJE was one interview, no idea if that is still the case and I agree it would be a good way to go, have your career path from Jazz to AC figured out before starting your training at Jazz.
It would take the uncertainty away but that is up to AC and their pilots if that is the way they want to go, I certainly wouldn’t oppose it myself but I don’t have a say in it.

• Encore is wholly owned by WestJet whereas Jazz and PAL are not owned by AC.
• Encore pilots are not flowing to WJ, except for a few who have been at the company for 8+ years
• It wasn't negotiated and AC pilots will not want to waste bargaining capital on it.

I realize that Encore is owned by WJ, all I was saying is that it used to be one interview, the flow is another issue. 8+ years before moving over, that is the industry in a nutshell, you get in a get a seniority number with WJ(old system), you’ll hang on forever rather than start over at the bottom of another list.
I would imagine the Encore list has thinned out somewhat with pilots who gave up waiting for the call that never comes but it would be a tough choice for some to give up!
As for Jazz, the way they have it set up and the trust of AC actually following what they agree to has pilots with any decent experience avoiding it, I don’t blame them!

Encore is still one interview for flow to mainline, or so I've been told. Seniority no longer transfers, as I believe you know.

Flow timelines are fluid - who knows how it will look in 5 years. I'm trying to go Encore with the plan to wait for flow to mainline, I'm more interested in the stability that brings. But I have the advantage of a military pension to soften the income hit.

[flieslikeachicken]

Encore is still one interview for flow to mainline, or so I've been told. Seniority no longer transfers, as I believe you know.

Flow timelines are fluid - who knows how it will look in 5 years. I'm trying to go Encore with the plan to wait for flow to mainline, I'm more interested in the stability that brings. But I have the advantage of a military pension to soften the income hit.

Seniority transfer is dependant on date of hire. If you were hired prior to January 2023, you are grandfathered and will retain your date of hire in the transfer.

[flying4dollars]

While that's great cdn...

Here's an idea...

Interview for AC when joining Jazz. Not Jazz. Why are we interviewing for Jazz to fly AC pax? Why is it such a ridiculous system? lol.

Or maybe when guys apply to Jazz, ask them on the application, "HEY DO U WANT TO ALSO GO TO AC AFTER SPENDING 2 YEARS AT JAZZ"?

If buddy answers yes, then make the interview an AC/JAZZ interview.

Then in the interview results you can tell the guys, hey AC doesn't like your face, but we like you. What do you want to do?

Then a guy can know going into Jazz that they're likely not ending up at AC. Then they may choose a VERY different career path.

This rolling the dice on whether a 787 skipper likes your responses, when the difference between YOU and the INTERVIEWER is nothing other than the fact than when you push back, you have 78 AC pax, and they have 282 AC pax... is seriously mind blowing.

Oh well, won't be solved by a post on avcanada. Just feel for the guys that got screwed by some bs paper pusher that had to justify their jobs by pushing this policy.

In a perfect world that could work, however AC won’t interview until 2000ish hours, many Jazz applicants are below that, besides that your interview will be based on experience and without that what do you have to offer. How would a 750 hour c172 instructor do at an AC interview?

In all fairness, the cadets at Georgian were interviewed by both Georgian and AC when they were recruited into their cadet program. 4 years later all are now at AC. So it has indeed been done.

[350driver]

While that's great cdn...

Here's an idea...

Interview for AC when joining Jazz. Not Jazz. Why are we interviewing for Jazz to fly AC pax? Why is it such a ridiculous system? lol.

Or maybe when guys apply to Jazz, ask them on the application, "HEY DO U WANT TO ALSO GO TO AC AFTER SPENDING 2 YEARS AT JAZZ"?

If buddy answers yes, then make the interview an AC/JAZZ interview.

Then in the interview results you can tell the guys, hey AC doesn't like your face, but we like you. What do you want to do?

Then a guy can know going into Jazz that they're likely not ending up at AC. Then they may choose a VERY different career path.

This rolling the dice on whether a 787 skipper likes your responses, when the difference between YOU and the INTERVIEWER is nothing other than the fact than when you push back, you have 78 AC pax, and they have 282 AC pax... is seriously mind blowing.

Oh well, won't be solved by a post on avcanada. Just feel for the guys that got screwed by some bs paper pusher that had to justify their jobs by pushing this policy.

In a perfect world that could work, however AC won’t interview until 2000ish hours, many Jazz applicants are below that, besides that your interview will be based on experience and without that what do you have to offer. How would a 750 hour c172 instructor do at an AC interview?

In all fairness, the cadets at Georgian were interviewed by both Georgian and AC when they were recruited into their cadet program. 4 years later all are now at AC. So it has indeed been done.

This right here!

[altiplano]

It was a one time trial program... and not repeated, maybe for a reason, not standard ops.

[350driver]

It was a one time trial program... and not repeated, maybe for a reason, not standard ops.

That's like stopping cooking because you burned your hand one day.

GGN guys are probably amongst the better guys I've flown with. Same with sky regional guys. Typically top notch.

[Snipergang]

Yep I’m one of those guys at Encore with no seniority transfer to mainline if that day ever comes even lol, I’m stuck deciding to stay with Encore or go to AC. From people who have left encore to go to ac I’ve heard the grass isn’t greener. We do have it pretty good but if we want any sort of career progression, it won’t be with WestJet.

[Avcanada123]

Yep I’m one of those guys at Encore with no seniority transfer to mainline if that day ever comes even lol, I’m stuck deciding to stay with Encore or go to AC. From people who have left encore to go to ac I’ve heard the grass isn’t greener. We do have it pretty good but if we want any sort of career progression, it won’t be with WestJet.

After 5 years at AC you could potentially have good seniority at a junior position such as RP. It'll pay the same as Encore if not a tiny bit better and now you also have upwards mobility for 20 years down the line

[piedpiper]

It was a one time trial program... and not repeated, maybe for a reason, not standard ops.

Correct. From the sounds of it as well AC was not happy with the whole program hence why they decided to get rid of it.

[piedpiper]

It was a one time trial program... and not repeated, maybe for a reason, not standard ops.

That's like stopping cooking because you burned your hand one day.

GGN guys are probably amongst the better guys I've flown with. Same with sky regional guys. Typically top notch.

Sorry but I somewhat disagree. Many GGN pilots I've flown with are great, but at the same time I'd say a lot of the ones I've worked with who were less than stellar came from GGN usually as FOs. I won't say names.

[flieslikeachicken]

Yep I’m one of those guys at Encore with no seniority transfer to mainline if that day ever comes even lol, I’m stuck deciding to stay with Encore or go to AC. From people who have left encore to go to ac I’ve heard the grass isn’t greener. We do have it pretty good but if we want any sort of career progression, it won’t be with WestJet.

What are you talking about?

Reasons why AC is better:

• running water on board
• downtown layovers
• hot destinations
• company paid health benefits
• company paid pension

[Avcanada123]

Yep I’m one of those guys at Encore with no seniority transfer to mainline if that day ever comes even lol, I’m stuck deciding to stay with Encore or go to AC. From people who have left encore to go to ac I’ve heard the grass isn’t greener. We do have it pretty good but if we want any sort of career progression, it won’t be with WestJet.

What are you talking about?

Reasons why AC is better:

• running water on board
• downtown layovers
• hot destinations
• company paid health benefits
• company paid pension

Just so we are clear at best the company does 10% and 8% you for the pension. That's best case scenario when you finally get maxed.

The company does pay 100% for heath benefits

[piedpiper]

Yep I’m one of those guys at Encore with no seniority transfer to mainline if that day ever comes even lol, I’m stuck deciding to stay with Encore or go to AC. From people who have left encore to go to ac I’ve heard the grass isn’t greener. We do have it pretty good but if we want any sort of career progression, it won’t be with WestJet.

What are you talking about?

Reasons why AC is better:

• running water on board
• downtown layovers
• hot destinations
• company paid health benefits
• company paid pension

Just so we are clear at best the company does 10% and 8% you for the pension. That's best case scenario when you finally get maxed.

The company does pay 100% for heath benefits

It's actually 11/7 now.

[350driver]

It was a one time trial program... and not repeated, maybe for a reason, not standard ops.

Correct. From the sounds of it as well AC was not happy with the whole program hence why they decided to get rid of it.

What a concept eh, you're shitty for AC but we are okay with you flying our paint and brand under GGN/Sky Regional/Jazz, but we don't want you at AC.

If that's seriously the train of thought then I am honestly speechless. How is a guy 'good' and 'safe' for one ac facade but not the other?

Smells like bs to me.

[altiplano]

There's nothing abnormal about an airline having tier 2/3 regional feeders and not interviewing and hiring everyone into mainline that works at the regional. Pretty normal ops for all major airlines on this continent.

Let alone conditionally hiring unlicensed wannabes with $150K to get fast tracked.

[350driver]

There's nothing abnormal about an airline having tier 2/3 regional feeders and not interviewing and hiring everyone into mainline that works at the regional. Pretty normal ops for all major airlines on this continent.

Let alone conditionally hiring unlicensed wannabes with $150K to get fast tracked.

Also nothing abnormal about Canadian pilots getting screwed left right and center. Doesn't make it okay does it?

You're climbing up a bad debate altiplano. It's bullshit, and you know it.

It's interesting to observe cause on so many topics you seem to be pro pilot, yet on this topic you're okay normalizing the bs it actually is.

I don't personally have a dog in the fight. I'm one of those 20 year dxb guys who came home, got a quick upgrade, and am outdoing every single one of you guys who had to endure that 10 year contract in terms of the life I got to live and the money I came home with and the family that remained intact as a result of my choices. (Standing by to see who is triggered by this). You shouldn't be. We just made different choices. But I'm just glad I made mine to leave in 2000's

The only thing that would've worked better for me is if ESOP was the way it could've been back in 2002, and I had interviewed instead of leaving and turned my 98 cent stock into 50 in 2019. Other than that, I'm glad I left and came back when I did.

Doubt anyone is experiencing the same career with the state of the ME it is today. So I definitely got lucky with timing of everything.

But all of this to say that I find it a shame watching guys on the line normalize what in actuality is nonsense.

I'm done talking about this. If anyone else has a better point of view, I'd love to hear it. Maybe I haven't considered something in my stance. But so far it just smells like bs.

[cdnavater]

There's nothing abnormal about an airline having tier 2/3 regional feeders and not interviewing and hiring everyone into mainline that works at the regional. Pretty normal ops for all major airlines on this continent.

Let alone conditionally hiring unlicensed wannabes with $150K to get fast tracked.

Also nothing abnormal about Canadian pilots getting screwed left right and center. Doesn't make it okay does it?

You're climbing up a bad debate altiplano. It's bullshit, and you know it.

It's interesting to observe cause on so many topics you seem to be pro pilot, yet on this topic you're okay normalizing the bs it actually is.

I don't personally have a dog in the fight. I'm one of those 20 year dxb guys who came home, got a quick upgrade, and am outdoing every single one of you guys who had to endure that 10 year contract in terms of the life I got to live and the money I came home with and the family that remained intact as a result of my choices. (Standing by to see who is triggered by this). You shouldn't be. We just made different choices. But I'm just glad I made mine to leave in 2000's

The only thing that would've worked better for me is if ESOP was the way it could've been back in 2002, and I had interviewed instead of leaving and turned my 98 cent stock into 50 in 2019. Other than that, I'm glad I left and came back when I did.

Doubt anyone is experiencing the same career with the state of the ME it is today. So I definitely got lucky with timing of everything.

But all of this to say that I find it a shame watching guys on the line normalize what in actuality is nonsense.

I'm done talking about this. If anyone else has a better point of view, I'd love to hear it. Maybe I haven't considered something in my stance. But so far it just smells like bs.

I’ll say the part you are missing is not pro pilot, the main purpose of the regional is to lower the costs, it’s why they continually award contracts to other tier 2 operators and why we spend so much bargaining capital trying to stop that.
Jazz was at one point the highest paid regional job on the planet, AC didn’t like that so they created competition and the downward spiral began, why this was allowed to happen is another topic but just to say, any pilot with experience applying to the regionals now is not doing so because they want to, it’s more likely they are not getting called elsewhere.
I’ll also say the hiring is not as picky as it used to be, I have used the term “the wrong stuff” on many occasion, so unfortunately in this instance if AC were to participate in the hiring process and say it’s one interview, hired at Jazz or PAL or the next iteration, we might get some better pilots but we also won’t have any leverage to make gains! Pilots will step on their grandmother to get ahead and would look at the shit pay as part of the dues to pay.
Honestly, I’ve seen some pilots go to AC from Jazz that has me questioning what it is they are looking for, while others who weren’t hired who are top notch.
However, stand by and hold on, we are in for a bumpy ride and Jazz may not be hiring anyone for a bit, no one will be!