Descend VIA bottom altitude question

[350driver]

Seems pretty obvious you'll be landing east if you're getting expecting runway 08 on the ATIS. Surely after BRUSR you're not going to head towards PGSKN if you're landing west (unless you have a runway change).

In ANY case, 4000 is the bottom altitude REGARDLESS of which approach you are going to get.

Could be technique from flying all over the world when I was a 380 skipper, but even when flying into the USA (esp mountainous terrain), if I had a descent VIA, I would set the bottom altitude of every fix on the way down for a few reasons.

1. Altitude alerter going off (annoyingly) to remind me to set lower as a means to keep me engaged.
2. If I ever got vectored off the STAR or had to turn due to WX I had the last safe IFR altitude selected in my altitude window (not just blindly selecting 4000 with the expectation bias that I will certainly complete this RNAV star down to 4000 [kind of the same mentality of not being committed to the runway until your reversers pop])
3. If an ECAM or NNC came up during descent, I had the last safe altitude for that sector selected, esp if a hold or vector was going to be given/requested.
4. Was a way to reassess approaching each waypoint if the conditions for continuing lower had been met, and if no changes, that answer was usually yes, and the next IFR altitude would be set.

Might seem like tedious and extra work esp on a VNAV PTH or in my case managed descent profile, but on the same argument, lots of guys have been burned blindly setting the lowest altitude and a parameter in the LNAV track/routing changing, while descending down. Usually caught in a radar environment. But I didn't have the luxury of a union behind me if I bust an altitude after commanding a 15 hour flight

Usually a larger issue flying in latin america, india, africa, but never hurts to be safe.

Also being a 380 skipper has nothing to do with my opinion being right or wrong. It's just how I ran the show and it was quite effective after some of those 15 hour ULR flying, in order to constantly reassess situational awareness especially when fatigue was real amongst us 4 up front.

Hope that helps.

Nothing different in the RJ, it is clear 4000’ is the bottom of the STAR and I also set the bottom altitude of the waypoints to A, meet those and B all of the things you said. The NG RJ has a VNAV, the non NG does not but I do the same in either.

Great airmanship in my point of view. I should've said when I was an RJ flight attendant back in the day , I did NOT do that. It was something I learned flying in less protective airspaces. So if you're already doing that, good on you!

[Blackdog0301]

Haha I knew someone would be triggered by it. I should've just said I was a c172 captain then you would've probably accepted the reply better right?

Canadian pilots... seriously some of the best clowns in the world. It's been eye opening coming home to say the least. Some great guys for sure, but a lot of communism (how dare you have it better than me) passive aggressive behavior amongst the beaten dogs on this continent.

Hope it gets better, I'm almost on my way out so I don't really have a motivation in it, but hope to leave it better than I entered it.

The answer is 4000, forget everything else I said.

Oh please. That reply isn't the only time you've tried flexing your credentials on here. It's literally in your username. You can't help but make sure that everyone knows what a big shot you are. I fly with guys like you all the time. It impresses no one. In fact, it makes you look even more self-centered.

Congrats on your approaching retirement, skip. The industry will certainly be a better place, but only after you're gone.

[piedpiper]

Dialing in each crossing when you're on vpath is an interesting approach, and speaks more to your own lack of trust in yourself, aircraft and crew than anything else. I mean unless you're in an RJ doing V/S managed arrivals. If my FO or CA (when I was FO) was doing this on a plane with functional VNAV it would really make me question their abilities and knowledge.


To the question at hand. If you're cleared to descend via the star, 6000. If they give you the transition then 4000.

6000 the last hard crossing that really matters here because the next is an ABOVE and relevant if they close the star on you and clear you for the approach. At which point if you're smart you're still using FMS/PATH until you're a bit closer in and you'd be dialing in lower (minimums or FAF) anyways as you transition to VOR/LOC. Or you’re in FLC or V/S using glide slope guidance to capture the approach.

There are lots of different ways to fly this none of which are inherently wrong as long as YOU know what you're doing and your PM also understands. Except for not trusting your vnav like 350bro.

The 4000A is irrelevant if you don't get a closure as you'll then be on vectors. Headings and altitude. In the USA I find they are very good at telling you to expect vectors.

There’s an FAA circular floating around that covers all of this. I give it to all my FOs because so many Canadians don’t fully understand it.

[Hangry]

To the question at hand. If you're cleared to descend via the star, 6000.

It's the last hard crossing. It's the one that matters. The 4000A is only relevant if they close the star on you and clear your for the approach. At which point if you're smart you're still using FMS/PATH until you're a bit closer in and you'd be dialing in lower (minimums or FAF) anyways as you transition to VOR/LOC. There are lots of different ways to fly this none of which are inherently wrong as long as YOU know what you're doing and your PM also understands. Except for not trusting your vnav like 350bro.

The 4000A is irrelevant if you don't get a closure as you'll then be on vectors.

Completely incorrect. Good grief. If expecting runway 8 it’s at or above 4000. That’s what you would set in a managed or “protected” mode.
The arrival doesn’t end at pgskn.

Edit to add it’s be 4000 or above for any of the east rwys. Obviously

[piedpiper]

To the question at hand. If you're cleared to descend via the star, 6000.

It's the last hard crossing. It's the one that matters. The 4000A is only relevant if they close the star on you and clear your for the approach. At which point if you're smart you're still using FMS/PATH until you're a bit closer in and you'd be dialing in lower (minimums or FAF) anyways as you transition to VOR/LOC. There are lots of different ways to fly this none of which are inherently wrong as long as YOU know what you're doing and your PM also understands. Except for not trusting your vnav like 350bro.

The 4000A is irrelevant if you don't get a closure as you'll then be on vectors.

Completely incorrect. Good grief. If expecting runway 8 it’s at or above 4000. That’s what you would set in a managed or “protected” mode.
The arrival doesn’t end at pgskn.

I was typing on my phone and missed a few points. See my edit. If you are not told what to expect you wouldn’t dial 4000.

Go read the FAQ

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files ... ia_FAQ.pdf

Page 6. Question 3.

“ 3. Q. How do I determine the “Bottom Altitude” of the STAR?

A. It is the last published altitude on the STAR or STAR Runway Transition that you are assigned. ”

[piedpiper]

On open star and the last alt is an ABOVE the vnav is not going to descend properly anyways. It will be in a no man’s land. I have flown 4 different vnav planes now and none of them would work like that. You’d have to take control after 6000. Which is the point I’m trying to make that functionally this entire discussion is largely irrelevant.

My technique in LAX or SNA for example is FLC after the last AT crossing, if there’s a lower ABOVE after. And manage my rate with flaps or brakes to be where I want to be transitioning to final.

In the case of this star I’d treat JAMIL more like an AT vs ABOVE.

[scdriver]

To the question at hand. If you're cleared to descend via the star, 6000.

It's the last hard crossing. It's the one that matters. The 4000A is only relevant if they close the star on you and clear your for the approach. At which point if you're smart you're still using FMS/PATH until you're a bit closer in and you'd be dialing in lower (minimums or FAF) anyways as you transition to VOR/LOC. There are lots of different ways to fly this none of which are inherently wrong as long as YOU know what you're doing and your PM also understands. Except for not trusting your vnav like 350bro.

The 4000A is irrelevant if you don't get a closure as you'll then be on vectors.

Completely incorrect. Good grief. If expecting runway 8 it’s at or above 4000. That’s what you would set in a managed or “protected” mode.
The arrival doesn’t end at pgskn.

I was typing on my phone and missed a few points. See my edit. If you are not told what to expect you wouldn’t dial 4000.

Go read the FAQ

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files ... ia_FAQ.pdf

Page 6. Question 3.

“ 3. Q. How do I determine the “Bottom Altitude” of the STAR?

A. It is the last published altitude on the STAR or STAR Runway Transition that you are assigned. ”

In this case would it not be 4000 whichever way you slice it, since all the transitions are at 4000 for the east runways? The STAR doesn’t just end at PGSKN, and on the next leg to TLMAN you can descend to 4000 anyway, no?

[piedpiper]

That depends what are you cleared? Expecting a certain runway is not a clearance.

Maybe they want you at 6000 and will break you off for vectors early. You can't presume anything.

[airway]

Completely incorrect. Good grief. If expecting runway 8 it’s at or above 4000. That’s what you would set in a managed or “protected” mode.
The arrival doesn’t end at pgskn.

I was typing on my phone and missed a few points. See my edit. If you are not told what to expect you wouldn’t dial 4000.

Go read the FAQ

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files ... ia_FAQ.pdf

Page 6. Question 3.

“ 3. Q. How do I determine the “Bottom Altitude” of the STAR?

A. It is the last published altitude on the STAR or STAR Runway Transition that you are assigned. ”

In this case would it not be 4000 whichever way you slice it, since all the transitions are at 4000 for the east runways? The STAR doesn’t just end at PGSKN, and on the next leg to TLMAN you can descend to 4000 anyway, no?

If you are not "assigned" a "STAR Runway Transition" you can only go down to 6000 ft in this case. If you are "assigned" a "STAR Runway Transition" you can go down to 4000 ft. Can we at least agree on that?

The question is what is your definition of "assigned".

To me, it needs to be a statement from ATC saying something like "landing east" or "expect R/W 08". I suppose if they put something in the ATIS saying something like "All arrivals expect RW 08" that might be OK, but if the ATIS just mentions the active R/W, I would not say you are "assigned" that R/W, especially if there is more than active R/W. What if they are planning on switching runways, and haven't changed the ATIS yet.



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[digits_]

If you are not "assigned" a "STAR Runway Transition" you can only go down to 6000 ft in this case. If you are "assigned" a "STAR Runway Transition" you can go down to 4000 ft. Can we at least agree on that?

The question is what is your definition of "assigned".

To me, it needs to be a statement from ATC saying something like "landing east" or "expect R/W 08". I suppose if they put something in the ATIS saying something like "All arrivals expect RW 08" that might be OK, but if the ATIS just mentions the active R/W, I would not say you are "assigned" that R/W, especially if there is more than active R/W. What if they are planning on switching runways, and haven't changed the ATIS yet.

Why 6000? It's a crossing altitude of a random waypoint. If you truly only have the STAR information without any runway or further clearance, you can only be certain to make it to BRUSR, as there's a split there depending on the runways in use. The minimum altitude past PGSKN is 4000 ft, so you can go to 4000 ft on your way to TLMN.

[airway]

"Digits wrote: If you truly only have the STAR information without any runway or further clearance, you can only be certain to make it to BRUSR"

True, but the OP was assuming that he was expecting/assigned R/W 08 because it was the active R/W on the ATIS.


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[scdriver]

I was typing on my phone and missed a few points. See my edit. If you are not told what to expect you wouldn’t dial 4000.

Go read the FAQ

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files ... ia_FAQ.pdf

Page 6. Question 3.

“ 3. Q. How do I determine the “Bottom Altitude” of the STAR?

A. It is the last published altitude on the STAR or STAR Runway Transition that you are assigned. ”

In this case would it not be 4000 whichever way you slice it, since all the transitions are at 4000 for the east runways? The STAR doesn’t just end at PGSKN, and on the next leg to TLMAN you can descend to 4000 anyway, no?

If you are not "assigned" a "STAR Runway Transition" you can only go down to 6000 ft in this case. If you are "assigned" a "STAR Runway Transition" you can go down to 4000 ft. Can we at least agree on that?

The question is what is your definition of "assigned".

To me, it needs to be a statement from ATC saying something like "landing east" or "expect R/W 08". I suppose if they put something in the ATIS saying something like "All arrivals expect RW 08" that might be OK, but if the ATIS just mentions the active R/W, I would not say you are "assigned" that R/W, especially if there is more than active R/W. What if they are planning on switching runways, and haven't changed the ATIS yet.



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Sure just because a runway is advertised as the active doesn’t automatically mean a certain transition should be flown - agreed. But the 6000 @ PGSKN crossing restriction wouldn’t be a clearance limit if a transition wasn’t assigned prior to that point. The transitions begin after the next waypoint, and on the leg to that waypoint you can descend to 4000. So to me that says you can descend to 4000 after meeting the 6000 crossing restriction at PGSKN. Obviously in normal operations you would get a further clearance for a certain transition or vectors or whatever, but a good discussion anyway.