Jet stream down

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Re: Jet stream down

Post by Old fella »

Nauclerus wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2026 7:35 pm From the report ...

"The captain was hired by Northwestern Air Lease on 01 December 2022. He obtained his type rating on the Jetstream series 3200 on 22 December 2022. In addition to his Jetstream series 3200 type rating, the captain also held ratings on the Jetstream 3100, Convair 580, Lockheed L-188 Electra, Lockheed L-1011 TriStar, Canadair Regional Jet, and Boeing 737-600, -700, and -800 series aircraft. The captain also held a flight engineer licence with ratings on the Douglas DC-8, the Lockheed L-188 Electra, and the Lockheed L-1011 TriStar."

Odd career progression. Sounds like maybe they started off as an AME/Flight Engineer then progressed to a pilot position. DC-8 and L-1011 sounds like Worldways ? Typed on the B737-600/700/800 sounds like Westjet ? How did they end up in a crappy Jetsteam job flying in the north in the winter after all that ? Has this person's name ever been released in the media yet ? Why the secrecy !?
Somebody posted here he was “ old school type” who started his career before the mid ‘80s , well that is 40-45 yrs ago. Would certainly put him in the mid 60s yrs of age.

I think many can read between the lines on this sad crash.
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by ‘Bob’ »

As shortages of experienced pilots takes hold (it’s not going away because it is systemic), a lot of pilots like these are coming out of the woodwork.

They “tick the boxes” for regulatory or experience levels (ATPL, TT, MPIC, etc) but their actual experience is dated, not current, irrelevant, or incomplete.

And they often have the inevitable cognitive decline that comes with age, the inability to be taught and effectively retain new information, and the authority to steepen the cockpit gradient which has been inoculated out of most of Gen X and subsequent generations through an entire career emphasis on CRM.

What I’d like to know and probably never will is what he based the speed he needed to be on? Has any dry snow in -20 conditions ever survived an 80 knot call and look out the window in anyone’s experience?

Also a Type IV spray is awful on a medium turboprop and generally produces a “what the @#$!” reaction to the uninitiated. If the plane is performing better than that, I know it’s clean enough to fly.
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by phillyfan »

Was there not a young kid upfront too? Was he just a passenger?
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by Pratt X 3 »

Pardon my very limited bush experience, but is it considered normal ops to fly fast after take-off to blow any residual snow off the wings? Wouldn't the ability to get off the ground mean that the wings are providing enough lift at lower speeds so you managed to cheat death? Swept-wing jets can get squirrly just after lift-off with a contaminated wing (see CRJ/Challenger icing accidents) so extra speed can sometimes save the day but if you are taking the chance that the snow will blow off on the take-off roll, you'd probably want to make sure it did before getting airborne.
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by digits_ »

Pratt X 3 wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2026 11:32 am Pardon my very limited bush experience, but is it considered normal ops to fly fast after take-off to blow any residual snow off the wings? Wouldn't the ability to get off the ground mean that the wings are providing enough lift at lower speeds so you managed to cheat death? Swept-wing jets can get squirrly just after lift-off with a contaminated wing (see CRJ/Challenger icing accidents) so extra speed can sometimes save the day but if you are taking the chance that the snow will blow off on the take-off roll, you'd probably want to make sure it did before getting airborne.
Not really for this particular situation, but it's very common and quite above board to fly a bit faster before raising the gear to make sure the snow you accumulated on taxi blows off and doesn't freeze the brakes on certain King Air models.

Even if you have deiced with certian home made procedures, I wouldn't fault someone for rotating at a bit of a higher speed assuming there's enough runway available. That's perhaps more of a grey area.

I am curious if the PIC really wanted to fly faster to blow the snow off the wings, or if it was to have a bigger stall safety margin due to a fear of ice sticking to some parts of the wing. The latter would make more sense logically, but that would once again be more important at rotation than when you actually make it airborne.

It might be a case of copying a procedure applicable to another type without fully understanding it (snow on gear) and then applying it to a different situation where it doesn't make much sense.
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by pelmet »

Pratt X 3 wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2026 11:32 am Pardon my very limited bush experience, but is it considered normal ops to fly fast after take-off to blow any residual snow off the wings? Wouldn't the ability to get off the ground mean that the wings are providing enough lift at lower speeds so you managed to cheat death? Swept-wing jets can get squirrly just after lift-off with a contaminated wing (see CRJ/Challenger icing accidents) so extra speed can sometimes save the day but if you are taking the chance that the snow will blow off on the take-off roll, you'd probably want to make sure it did before getting airborne.
A couple of guys tried it in a 748 almost 20 years ago while everyone else was de-icing. Heard they were recorded talking about snow blowing off during the roll. Didn't work out so well.
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by Justjohn »

‘Bob’ wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2026 10:38 am As shortages of experienced pilots takes hold (it’s not going away because it is systemic), a lot of pilots like these are coming out of the woodwork.

They “tick the boxes” for regulatory or experience levels (ATPL, TT, MPIC, etc) but their actual experience is dated, not current, irrelevant, or incomplete.

And they often have the inevitable cognitive decline that comes with age, the inability to be taught and effectively retain new information, and the authority to steepen the cockpit gradient which has been inoculated out of most of Gen X and subsequent generations through an entire career emphasis on CRM.

What I’d like to know and probably never will is what he based the speed he needed to be on? Has any dry snow in -20 conditions ever survived an 80 knot call and look out the window in anyone’s experience?

Also a Type IV spray is awful on a medium turboprop and generally produces a “what the @#$!” reaction to the uninitiated. If the plane is performing better than that, I know it’s clean enough to fly.


Hey Bob, who the heck are you and yes, stronger language IS implied.

The captain in question spent most of his career in the Middle East. Nearing age 65 COVID happened. His retirement wasn’t yet set up. As I’m sure you’re aware you can’t skipper a 705 airplane engaged in international travel beyond 65. This was his softer landing after COVID.

May we all equally be judged by either our finest or worst moments but you sir are taking one accident report and a whole lot of speculation and spinning a a yarn about someone YOU don’t know.

Be humble
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by Dias »

Pratt X 3 wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2026 11:32 am Pardon my very limited bush experience, but is it considered normal ops to fly fast after take-off to blow any residual snow off the wings? Wouldn't the ability to get off the ground mean that the wings are providing enough lift at lower speeds so you managed to cheat death? Swept-wing jets can get squirrly just after lift-off with a contaminated wing (see CRJ/Challenger icing accidents) so extra speed can sometimes save the day but if you are taking the chance that the snow will blow off on the take-off roll, you'd probably want to make sure it did before getting airborne.
No, you're right. It makes zero sense. In a blackhole situation it's extra nonsensical.
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Last edited by Dias on Sun Mar 15, 2026 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by cncpc »

Justjohn wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2026 2:51 pm
Hey Bob, who the heck are you and yes, stronger language IS implied.

The captain in question spent most of his career in the Middle East. Nearing age 65 COVID happened. His retirement wasn’t yet set up. As I’m sure you’re aware you can’t skipper a 705 airplane engaged in international travel beyond 65. This was his softer landing after COVID.

May we all equally be judged by either our finest or worst moments but you sir are taking one accident report and a whole lot of speculation and spinning a a yarn about someone YOU don’t know.

Be humble
Well said, John.
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by goingnowherefast »

Pratt X 3 wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2026 11:32 am Pardon my very limited bush experience, but is it considered normal ops to fly fast after take-off to blow any residual snow off the wings? Wouldn't the ability to get off the ground mean that the wings are providing enough lift at lower speeds so you managed to cheat death? Swept-wing jets can get squirrly just after lift-off with a contaminated wing (see CRJ/Challenger icing accidents) so extra speed can sometimes save the day but if you are taking the chance that the snow will blow off on the take-off roll, you'd probably want to make sure it did before getting airborne.
The plane might get airborne, but unable to climb out of ground effect. Lots of icing crashes are into the trees off the end of the runway. Fond-du-Lac and Dryden immediately come to mind.

If it doesn't blow off by blowing on it, then spray it off. What speed does the breath come out of one's mouth, 10kt? It'll be gone by power set, and definitely Vr
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by Dias »

Repost
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by cncpc »

digits_ wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2026 12:27 pm
I am curious if the PIC really wanted to fly faster to blow the snow off the wings, or if it was to have a bigger stall safety margin due to a fear of ice sticking to some parts of the wing. The latter would make more sense logically, but that would once again be more important at rotation than when you actually make it airborne.
This. For sure.

This accident did not happen in a vacuum. If there is an inquest, these facts will come out.

NWAL was on its last legs financially. The ownership did not have the in house capacity to create a business plan that recognized the need for fleet replacement and would be capable of attracting investment to finance that. It was run by a pilot and pilot engineer. Their perspective was rooted in the past, their only management decision was to cannibalize their own operational fleet down to four aircraft. Their only strength was they had a monopoly on their routes. They had spent 8 years under the spell of some blow in, with no knowledge of aviation whatsoever, and a fantastical story of his own prowess in business. This accident was inevitable, with multiple causal chains possible.

The causal chain here traces back to the lack of financial ability to finance even repairs to the deice truck.

Within two hours of the accident I received a text from a friend in Smith. "They've finally crashed. All dead". I called her to find out what she was talking about. I found out, and was shocked, although I had predicted that event. She did tell me one thing. She said she had been outside at 6:30 that morning and it was snowing. The snow was in big flakes and wet on touching the skin, she said. Even at 20 below, that can happen in an inversion if the bottom cold layer is not deep. Our friend PDW has said there was an inversion at that time.

Diavik was a major revenue source for the company. The captain would have known that. I expect that in the tactile test, he determined that he would have some ice on the wings, not just on the leading edges. The normal solution to that, the deice truck, was not available. To cancel the crew change, for a reason tracing back to financial incapacity to ensure a proper result for a predictable safety challenge, might have lost the contract.

So the quote from Digits is spot on. That makes more sense. But that decision was not necessarily fatal. The decision to pair the captain and first officer was. It manifested in the lad calling the hung gear, and then directing the captain to slow down. Neither of those things would have been in his training or in any SOP. It is an example of his belief that he knew more than the captain, and of his marginal abilities as a first officer. Those were known to flight ops. Flight ops expected them to work out their incompatibility themselves. That beggars belief.

In fairness, it is not certain that the captain did reduce power. There is no verbal on that, and the statement that he did seems to be based on a couple of prop speed flickers.
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Re: Jet stream down

Post by digits_ »

cncpc wrote: Mon Mar 16, 2026 12:07 am It manifested in the lad calling the hung gear, and then directing the captain to slow down. Neither of those things would have been in his training or in any SOP.
Does NWAL not have a 'gear up and locked' or similar call in their SOPs when the gear cycle is complete?
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