Why the ramp Etc. before flying?

marktheone · Post by **marktheone** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 12:16 pm

Butwhy,

If you did some research into this industry before you started you would have found that winding up on the ramp for a bit was pretty much the standard. I'm not for companies exploiting pilots at all but a couple of months is par for the course.

Northern Skies · Post by **Northern Skies** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 8:29 pm

tellyourkidstogetarealjob wrote:Paying dues is one thing; being treated like a toilet so buddy can undercut every other operator in the area to create a mini-empire, then brag at businessman's luncheons about his business acumen is totally different.

Yeah!!!

I couldn't have said it any better.

stuckmike · Post by **stuckmike** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 9:21 pm

um...didn't anyone research their career choice before throwing all their money at it? I mean, if you did, you would see the challenge of the aviation industry. Supply/demand, whatever you feel the problem is but it is a choice, your choice. One you made when you had your first solo or whenever.

It is wrong how some operators treat their employees. But you know what? Leave. It's your choice. Grab a set and be a professional, but if you decide to be a pilot at all cost, prepare to be raped.

Does this make sense?......i don't know, I should never get on here after I hit the Lemon Hart.

Cheers

Anonymous1 · Post by **Anonymous1** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:07 am

I worked the ramp and loadmaster in ZF and loved the job and the pay was great. You have a choice what company you go to, so why not choose one that pays well and actually promotes from within rather than a loser place? I see nothing wrong with someone starting out loading bags and cleaning planes as long as you get some right seat time in at the same time to keep your IFR sharp. Sure, a company could just use you to fly from day one and hire dedicated ramp guys who are non-pilots but then you would have to be paid less to allow for the extra ramp salaries. And then complaining about low pilot wages would be next.
Some of you think that companies are made of money and are all out to rip you off. Why not ask your boss to show you what it actually costs to run an airline and then you'll understand exactly why pilots are also used for ramp work. Or would you be happier only flying for a very high salary and then watching your company go belly up but at least you got your hours in to move on?

40 Set&Indicated · Post by **40 Set&Indicated** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 7:15 am

I'm not sure where people get the attitude that just because a person is a pilot, they should not have to do a little work. Time on the ramp is a good thing for new pilots. It gives a little perspective on things, and causes one to really appreciate the priviliage of being a pilot once the ramp time is done.

I mean, you can tell which pilots are the ones who haven't spent much time on the ramp. They are the assholes who are full of arrogant attitude, always impatient whith rampies, and any delay of any sort. They just sit aroud and watch while you are struggling with your plebian ramp dutys.

Sometimes the job can be damned depresing, there are times when a guy might feel like quiting, I myself came very close several times, but the best thing to do is ride it out, things are guaranteed to get better. If you can't handle the the ramp time, maybe it's best that you aren't in this industry at all. No one deserves to fly just because they can supply 50 grand. Flying is a privilege that should be earned through hard work and dedication, not expected as a god given right.

I'm not saying that rampies should have to spend years on the ramp, or clean shitters, or other do other demeaning tasks not related to aviation, but six months, to a year on the ramp and a little hard work can only benefit a person, and improve on the professional pilot they will become.

gonfly'n · Post by **gonfly'n** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:45 pm

Im in high school and i'v got two ramp jobs, i can't see myself paying big bucks to learn how to fly and then working shit ramp jobs for 8 bucks an hour. I'm thinking more about becoming an Ame and just flying for fun.

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:14 pm

gonfly'n wrote:Im in high school and i'v got two ramp jobs, i can't see myself paying big bucks to learn how to fly and then working shit ramp jobs for 8 bucks an hour. I'm thinking more about becoming an Ame and just flying for fun.

This guy has the right idea.

As Al Swearengen once said, "Pain or damage don't end the world. Or Despair or fucking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back".

sprucemonkey · Post by **sprucemonkey** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:24 am

However this is the new reality and I guess the new guys will eventually get used to being used before they can become pilots....but what is the CPL good for? Oh it is a permit to clean shit houses...stupid me.

Cat

That's too true. Brings back memories OF Myself and "douche" once elbows deep cleaning martysshitter for a shot at flying. Since, we've had the same career advancement up to this point. It sure did suck but at least we were flying in six months time.

It doesn't really prove you're a hard worker or a good pilot though. Just shows you can take shit and move it around to please some dipshit above you.

scubasteve · Post by **scubasteve** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:17 pm

I can totally see that some time on the ramp or dock would be a learning experience but without flight time, how can the employer see how you are in an airplane? What happens when someone spends a year on the dock and then doesnt live up to expectations in the cockpit? I have nothing against the non flying work if it is appreciatied. I also think you can tell alot about a person by their previous jobs. I think someone who has stayed at a job for an extended period especially one that takes hard work and may not be glamorous has already shown some character. There is a line between employing a pilot on the ramp and having them groom a/c, throw bags, marshal etc and making them scrape gum off of the tarmac or scrub toilets.

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:38 pm

Vortecks...you haven't got a phuquen clue, do you? Really liked your comment about pilots who didn't "work the ramp" being "assholes"! You go, moron!

stef · Post by **stef** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 3:37 am

Proving his point I'd say.

Why is it demeaning? Why are employers viewed as exploiting? They're providing you a job so you can eat while you don't have skills that the work place deems valuable. If you don't like it, you'd better find some other industry. If you find work demeaning, you'd better grow up a little.

And what is everyone's obsession with cleaning lavs. Its work that needs to be done. What do you want? A personal slave to do it for you? Would it be less demeaning for him/her? Suck it up and get it done.

tellyourkidstogetarealjob · Sat Dec 31, 2005 4:19 am

Unless I'm seriously misreading some comments on this thread there's nothing wrong with cleaning lavs. There's also nothing wrong learning the ropes in this industry or any other. I doubt whether brain surgeons go cutting away all by themselves the first day after graduation.

The general mood seems to be against indefinite periods of working at jobs that often don't hone skills that people have paid a lot of money to learn. I'm willing to bet the people who paid by themselves without much parental support are the most resentful.

Being offered a clearly defined "apprenticeship" where the learning of jobs and respect for other trades within the industry is acceptable and not many would argue that. This includes washing aircraft and dumping lav. carts.

However, being strung along with vague promises of good times to come and overly long periods of skill erosion just so the industry can fly people to Europe for the same price they did in 1970 is, in fact, exploitation.

Double Wasp · Post by **Double Wasp** » Sat Dec 31, 2005 5:57 pm

I believe ramp time is good for a new guy. It does teach people good things about flying. Like how to load airplanes, how to tow and push them properly, how to work with engine tents and wing covers. This experience is invaluable when you are out in the field by yourself trying to figure this stuff out. I worked the ramp myself for a while and some of the things I learned there I use every day. It is also handy for employers to see if these people are worth investing in. From their point of view there is no point in wasting money checking out a complete idiot and the ramp is a handy way of finding that out. I do not agree with the whole cleaning crappers because it has absolutely nothing to do with aviation, however it does teach humility not that pilots would ever need that, but ramp time is valuable. I agree with check pilot that ramping, followed by copiloting, is like an apprenticeship. The one thing that gets me riled up is the guys that have the I am owed something attitude. No one held a gun to head and said apply here. Nor did they while you sat there for a year or whatever waiting your turn. So no one owes you a checkout. It is plain and simple with most companies if you deserve it, when it is your turn, you will get one, if you do not you will skipped or let go. There is plenty information out there on how companies treat their employees, use it. But once you are hired and are working there as far as I am concerned you 2 choices either put up with it or quit. Please choose either one and don't whine about it. If it is too hard for ya leave and let someone else have the spot.
Now I wait patiently for the inevetable constructive critizim to follow.
DW

40 Set&Indicated · Post by **40 Set&Indicated** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:17 pm

Doc complains:

Vortecks...you haven't got a phuquen clue, do you? Really liked your comment about pilots who didn't "work the ramp" being "assholes"! You go, moron!

I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was buring pilots for not "working the ramp", I didn't mean that it should be taken that far. What I meant was that it would be nice if they helped with their own planes, though most pilots that I know are the greatest and most helpful guys that there are. I was more refering to the attitude of some, co-pilots. (Though the majority are usually good guys)

tellyourkidstogetarealjob analogizes:

I doubt whether brain surgeons go cutting away all by themselves the first day after graduation.

I also doubt that brain surgens have to clean up shit covered paper off of bathroom floors either.(do they?)

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 4:41 pm

If you want to spend 30K on a CPL, multi-IFR, and a float rating, then you want to work a ramp.......and you think it makes you a better pilot...go for it! But dont EVER call the rest of us "assholes" because we didn't work a ramp for min wage! And if you really think you're a better pilot because you've spent time "treading water" on a ramp/dock somewhere instead of getting into a cockpit......then you dreaming in colour!

AirpranePirot · Post by **AirpranePirot** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:40 pm

Doc wrote:If you want to spend 30K on a CPL, multi-IFR, and a float rating, then you want to work a ramp.......and you think it makes you a better pilot...go for it! But dont EVER call the rest of us "assholes" because we didn't work a ramp for min wage! And if you really think you're a better pilot because you've spent time "treading water" on a ramp/dock somewhere instead of getting into a cockpit......then you dreaming in colour!

He didn't call every pilot who didn't work the ramp assholes. He even explained himself a second time. You're getting incredibly defensive about words you just put into his mouth. Take a deep breath and relax.

As for me, I chose to work the ramp/dock for the same reasons that have already been beaten into the ground over the course of this thread. The experience was invaluable, my coworkers and superiors have more respect for me and I also used the time to prove myself and open up opportunities that may not have been availble had I just gone straight into an airplane. Given the option, I would definitely not change my decision.

desksgo · Post by **desksgo** » Thu Oct 05, 2006 8:49 pm

Doc wrote:If you want to spend 30K on a CPL, multi-IFR, and a float rating, then you want to work a ramp.......and you think it makes you a better pilot...go for it! But dont EVER call the rest of us "assholes" because we didn't work a ramp for min wage! And if you really think you're a better pilot because you've spent time "treading water" on a ramp/dock somewhere instead of getting into a cockpit......then you dreaming in colour!

You guys all deep down know that he is 100% correct. Some will catch a break, shake the right hand, be born into the right family, others will have to gnaw their way into the industry on the ramp. I've never seen a correlation to the way they operate aircraft. Each side has its share of stupid pilots.

Here is a litte ditty that might help you understand:

"Now the world the don't move to the beat of just one drum,
What might be right for you may no be right for some,
A man is born,
he is a man of means,
Then along comes two and they ain't got nothing but the dreams,
but it takes different strokes,
it takes different strokes,
it takes different strokes to rule the world,
Everybody's gots their special kind of story,
Everybody's got a way to shine,
No matter what you got,
Not a lot,
So what,
They'll Have theirs, You'll have yours, and I'll have mine,
And together we'll be fine
But it takes different strokes,
it takes different strokes,
It takes different strokes to rule the world."

ajet32 · Post by **ajet32** » Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:03 am

First of all this is Canada and we enjoy eating our own young and demeaning them as we might have been in the past. If you were to go the European route you could easily spend 2 or 3 times as much learning to fly and then another 30-50,000$ for a self sponsored type rating on Boeing 737NG or Airbus and be flying big iron with 250 - 400 hours total time. I had a coffee in YYC terminal with a Capt and FO from a UK charter outfit flying A330 . The captain was a grizzeled 50 ish guy and the FO was 27 years old and had 1200 hours and a frozen ATPL. I didn't dare ask how much he paid to get his training but be had no PIC other than in training and started on a Shorts 360 with 240 hours. Moved to the big bus with 1000 hours total. His chances for upfrade inside of 10-15 years are non existant. He never worked the ramp or bashed bags and is very knowledgable technically. Is this a better system? If you want big iron and you have a loose 100,000 around wtf go for it. Just my 2 cents worth I came up thru the ramp and the dock and then floats. I had a degree and several years unrelated experience before flying. The same cadet type systems are available in the far east for some. Canada is what it is and yea it sure sucks somedays. If you really want the life style then you can have it here or overseas but it doesn't come without pain.

Why the ramp Etc. before flying?

Ramp