What's the plan?

[ThrustIdle]

So this is the MEC that was saying the initial deal was good even with comical quality of life gains and now we can't even get them?!?

They couldn't even negotiate with the company properly while Air Transat got 100% Deadhead & Long Call reserve plus even got lounge passes. Even 100% extra pay on Open Time!

Looks like they decided to go with literally the exact same negots committee for the next round including making that guy the lead negotiator that got that MOA that got voted down at 80%.

So the plan is the definition of insanity? Go with same MEC and negots committee but hope for better results?!

[troisrivieres]

My favorite is sim on my days off. Industry worst training outside of your block.

Not sure how the same group will yield anything different. I guess we shall see...

[thepoors]

I love how the latest communication is "we're shocked and appalled the company is exploiting all the weak contract language we allowed to pass." They aren't being "fair" and "respectful." "We made a bunch of weak handshake agreements on the implementation of the contract and the company is ignoring them even though they promised they would honour them."

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??!! NO SHIT, YOU MASTER NEGOTIATORS

Why was their assumption that AC management is somehow honourable and would play along in good faith like they respect us? What evidence of this were they basing these decisions off of? How has no one learned that unless it's written in black and white, and even then, it will be exploited? When has this company every done anything for its employees out of good will? Seriously? These morons hinged an entire contract on this. And now they play victim like everyone didn't see this coming. Pathetic.

[rudder]

A membership gets the representation that it deserves.

Somebody voted this group in. It might not have been you, but 50%+1 of your flight deck coworkers did in the base representation elections. And now they have the keys to the car like picking the MEC Exec and the NC.

Notwithstanding fancy lanyards and picketing videos, there is a silent majority at AC that seems fine with it. I am sure that the company will be dusting off the same old playbook they have used for decades because it appears to work.

Despite a pilot demographic that is dramatically skewed to recency, there appears to be a continued ‘old guard’ mentality. When has that ever been successful?

[Insanity]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results".

[AllthatJazz]

As a new guy, my feeling is expectations are pretty low with the current union leaders. They seem to behave like a social club with fancy dinners & drinks with no real plan besides the occasional email moaning about being victims.

Not sure who elected these guys in but hopefully somehow there is some change because I don't think the juniors have much faith. I can't believe they get 90 hours guaranteed plus a $2k bonus while line pilots are down to 68 hours. Nuts!

[FL030]

I'm consistently told that we can't seek the assistance of professional negotiators because those don't exist. I strongly disagree with that and suggest we hire one of many available contract mediator individuals or firms that have decades of expert experience negotiating contracts.

[Hangry]

A membership gets the representation that it deserves.

Somebody voted this group in. It might not have been you, but 50%+1 of your flight deck coworkers did in the base representation elections. And now they have the keys to the car like picking the MEC Exec and the NC.

Notwithstanding fancy lanyards and picketing videos, there is a silent majority at AC that seems fine with it. I am sure that the company will be dusting off the same old playbook they have used for decades because it appears to work.

Despite a pilot demographic that is dramatically skewed to recency, there appears to be a continued ‘old guard’ mentality. When has that ever been successful?

This. Nothing will change because the membership has no spine. Very simple really.

[unitatis super omnia]

I love how the latest communication is "we're shocked and appalled the company is exploiting all the weak contract language we allowed to pass." They aren't being "fair" and "respectful." "We made a bunch of weak handshake agreements on the implementation of the contract and the company is ignoring them even though they promised they would honour them."

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??!! NO SHIT, YOU MASTER NEGOTIATORS

Why was their assumption that AC management is somehow honourable and would play along in good faith like they respect us? What evidence of this were they basing these decisions off of? How has no one learned that unless it's written in black and white, and even then, it will be exploited? When has this company every done anything for its employees out of good will? Seriously? These morons hinged an entire contract on this. And now they play victim like everyone didn't see this coming. Pathetic.

3385.jpg (8.61 KiB) Viewed 1015 times

[thepoors]

I love how the latest communication is "we're shocked and appalled the company is exploiting all the weak contract language we allowed to pass." They aren't being "fair" and "respectful." "We made a bunch of weak handshake agreements on the implementation of the contract and the company is ignoring them even though they promised they would honour them."

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??!! NO SHIT, YOU MASTER NEGOTIATORS

Why was their assumption that AC management is somehow honourable and would play along in good faith like they respect us? What evidence of this were they basing these decisions off of? How has no one learned that unless it's written in black and white, and even then, it will be exploited? When has this company every done anything for its employees out of good will? Seriously? These morons hinged an entire contract on this. And now they play victim like everyone didn't see this coming. Pathetic.

3385.jpg

Be honest you're an ALPA rep aren't you? Given the corny username and the being all butthurt. Great way to motivate the membership.

[SNAAP]

I love how the latest communication is "we're shocked and appalled the company is exploiting all the weak contract language we allowed to pass." They aren't being "fair" and "respectful." "We made a bunch of weak handshake agreements on the implementation of the contract and the company is ignoring them even though they promised they would honour them."

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??!! NO SHIT, YOU MASTER NEGOTIATORS

Why was their assumption that AC management is somehow honourable and would play along in good faith like they respect us? What evidence of this were they basing these decisions off of? How has no one learned that unless it's written in black and white, and even then, it will be exploited? When has this company every done anything for its employees out of good will? Seriously? These morons hinged an entire contract on this. And now they play victim like everyone didn't see this coming. Pathetic.

3385.jpg

Be honest you're an ALPA rep aren't you? Given the corny username and the being all butthurt. Great way to motivate the membership.

Has to be. They got their 90 hrs & displacement. They aren't too worried about quality of life gains or having no long call reserve. They chilling "working from home" and then come in for paid steak & beers.

[Dry Guy]

A lot of beers apparently.

[Nick678]

90 credits is ridiculous I don’t care whose is picking up the tab on that.

All new contract items need to get “if not implemented by this date”…. “Pilots get additional credits”. Should light a fire.

[Dias]

Instead of wasting time on quality of life items that are impossible to enforce why not go for higher wages?

[altiplano]

90 credits is ridiculous I don’t care whose is picking up the tab on that.

All new contract items need to get “if not implemented by this date”…. “Pilots get additional credits”. Should light a fire.

What is it? 7 positions that get the 90?

It's less than a check pilot... and I'm pretty sure it's a work every day type of position. You don't think they are working for you? Elect different leadership.

I'd stop worrying on that and petty division and focus on getting the people around you on track.

[troisrivieres]

Well it has to be more than that. They just created the largest negotiating committee at least I've ever heard of with all of the same people from the last round. No changes. One guy interviewed but the drunken reps accosted him and basically harassed him because he didnt like the world class TA.

Now they got 6 guys on negots who will need full displacement, plus the 7 from the MEC, plus the reps displacement. Equals a lot of time away from the line which I'm sure is the main goal here. Social club away from the line with lots of beers, wine, and highballs.

This isn't the making of an inspirational team for the next round. I am questioning leaving Transat after what they accomplished last round. Made these former ACPA guys look like fools.

[IKEA_Monkey]

One guy interviewed but the drunken reps accosted him and basically harassed him because he didnt like the world class TA.

That's not what I heard. That individual is one if the most prolific online critics (I wouldnt be surprised if he was one or several of the posters here). But when confronted in person about some of his more derisive posts he couldn't take the heat and quickly folded. You would think someone with such conviction online would have a little more fortitude in person.

In general though I think the anger here is isolated and not well represented. I went to the YYZ roadshow, only 50 or so pilots attended, granted thats more than an average local meeting, its still a poor showing for a base of +2,500. I raised my concern about implementation and after the company's non-answer I was expecting others to keep the pressure on, instead it veared into A350 crew rest and what the new cabin interiors would be like. No outrage from new hires. No real pushback on implementation. Suffice to say, if the anger in this thread were tangible there would have been a lot more heat in that room. Certainly seems the majority is OK with status quo.

[altiplano]

Well it has to be more than that. They just created the largest negotiating committee at least I've ever heard of with all of the same people from the last round. No changes. One guy interviewed but the drunken reps accosted him and basically harassed him because he didnt like the world class TA.

Now they got 6 guys on negots who will need full displacement, plus the 7 from the MEC, plus the reps displacement. Equals a lot of time away from the line which I'm sure is the main goal here. Social club away from the line with lots of beers, wine, and highballs.

This isn't the making of an inspirational team for the next round. I am questioning leaving Transat after what they accomplished last round. Made these former ACPA guys look like fools.

Negots committee guys don't get 90.

Do you think 6 guys is too many to have negots? I almost think it's not enough given the work load going into and during. I have no problem that we put a large group forward to work for us

Elected status reps don't get full displacement from flying and they deal with a ton of bullshit every day. I have no problem with those guys getting displaced to with for us.

Transat had little option other to fold given a strike would have probably put them into bankruptcy. Glad the guys there were able to recognize significant leverage.

[ZackMorris]

I love this ACPA post above.

Before Transat's TA, it was "Transat doesn't have much leverage because they are financial wet noodles".

Now after, it is because they couldn't afford a strike, they got more than Air Canada pilots.

Lets face it. Some of these ACPA types are true world class rationalizers for shit results. It is amazing the crap they come up with. Popcorn for the next round.

[thepoors]

One guy interviewed but the drunken reps accosted him and basically harassed him because he didnt like the world class TA.

That's not what I heard. That individual is one if the most prolific online critics (I wouldnt be surprised if he was one or several of the posters here). But when confronted in person about some of his more derisive posts he couldn't take the heat and quickly folded. You would think someone with such conviction online would have a little more fortitude in person.

In general though I think the anger here is isolated and not well represented. I went to the YYZ roadshow, only 50 or so pilots attended, granted thats more than an average local meeting, its still a poor showing for a base of +2,500. I raised my concern about implementation and after the company's non-answer I was expecting others to keep the pressure on, instead it veared into A350 crew rest and what the new cabin interiors would be like. No outrage from new hires. No real pushback on implementation. Suffice to say, if the anger in this thread were tangible there would have been a lot more heat in that room. Certainly seems the majority is OK with status quo.

Whatever happened with the drunken rep incident is rumour, and I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle. Although one constant in the story is that an ALPA rep should have a little more discretion than getting wasted to the point of belligerence.

As for there not being enough outrage and dissidence: I think people are reluctant to speak up either against the company or ALPA because they will be treated like pariahs, not taken seriously, or fear reprisals from one or both parties.

Coming out of the last round of negotiations ALPA did not create an environment open to expressing opposition, in fact they did the opposite and shunned anyone opposed to the TA. There is very much an "in" club at ALPA and that means toeing the line. It's not healthy and works against what they should be trying to accomplish. If they only want yes men, we will never achieve meaningful change. The fact that we have the same people at the table insulating themselves from criticism while being responsible for this utter failure of a contract does not bode well for the future.

Does the pilot group by and large lack a spine, as some have pointed out? Yes, but we've known that for a long time and that's what ALPA should be trying to fix, not make worse.

One thing we should be pushing is for the upcoming survey results to be made public. This bs about "showing our hand" to the company is meaningless. The company already knows what our hand is because they keep using the same old playbook and coming out ahead. If the results are public the membership can at least hold ALPA accountable to what we as a whole want from the next contract. At the moment there is way too much closed door politics going on behind the scenes.

[Torontomaplelaughs]

I love this ACPA post above.

Before Transat's TA, it was "Transat doesn't have much leverage because they are financial wet noodles".

Now after, it is because they couldn't afford a strike, they got more than Air Canada pilots.

Lets face it. Some of these ACPA types are true world class rationalizers for shit results. It is amazing the crap they come up with. Popcorn for the next round.

Add that I think the key point is that Air Transat MEC was actually ready to strike and they actually gave notice instead of crumbling to the "the best deal".

The ACA union leadership group recommended a sub par deal, can't even implement it, and now send out an email whining that life is unfair but yet want to send in the same guys next round.

It is insane.

[CPU2000]

Negots committee guys don't get 90.

Do you think 6 guys is too many to have negots? I almost think it's not enough given the work load going into and during. I have no problem that we put a large group forward to work for us

Elected status reps don't get full displacement from flying and they deal with a ton of bullshit every day. I have no problem with those guys getting displaced to with for us.

Transat had little option other to fold given a strike would have probably put them into bankruptcy. Glad the guys there were able to recognize significant leverage.

Altiplano,

Two questions:

1) Name one ALPA pilot group that has 6 members on the negotiating committee

2) Name one ALPA pilots group going into another round of bargaining with the same team. Especially after a very contentious round.

We all wait for a response because it has never been done before because it is insane.

This is total amateur hour from this group.

[BigGreen]

One guy interviewed but the drunken reps accosted him and basically harassed him because he didnt like the world class TA.

That's not what I heard. That individual is one if the most prolific online critics (I wouldnt be surprised if he was one or several of the posters here). But when confronted in person about some of his more derisive posts he couldn't take the heat and quickly folded. You would think someone with such conviction online would have a little more fortitude in person.

In general though I think the anger here is isolated and not well represented. I went to the YYZ roadshow, only 50 or so pilots attended, granted thats more than an average local meeting, its still a poor showing for a base of +2,500. I raised my concern about implementation and after the company's non-answer I was expecting others to keep the pressure on, instead it veared into A350 crew rest and what the new cabin interiors would be like. No outrage from new hires. No real pushback on implementation. Suffice to say, if the anger in this thread were tangible there would have been a lot more heat in that room. Certainly seems the majority is OK with status quo.

Lol..another rep or committee member who is rationalizing the status quo. You can see this conveniently from the comfort of home

Defending drunk harrassment to a member who came to interview. Truly ACPA has returned.

Godspeed for the next round. This group has as much credibility as ACPA, the brand they used to propel themselves into Gucci ALPA spots.

[unitatis super omnia]

I love how the latest communication is "we're shocked and appalled the company is exploiting all the weak contract language we allowed to pass." They aren't being "fair" and "respectful." "We made a bunch of weak handshake agreements on the implementation of the contract and the company is ignoring them even though they promised they would honour them."

ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME??!! NO SHIT, YOU MASTER NEGOTIATORS

Why was their assumption that AC management is somehow honourable and would play along in good faith like they respect us? What evidence of this were they basing these decisions off of? How has no one learned that unless it's written in black and white, and even then, it will be exploited? When has this company every done anything for its employees out of good will? Seriously? These morons hinged an entire contract on this. And now they play victim like everyone didn't see this coming. Pathetic.

3385.jpg

Be honest you're an ALPA rep aren't you? Given the corny username and the being all butthurt. Great way to motivate the membership.

LOL ya sure man. You got me. Cry harder. Which base are you an MLO?

[thepoors]

3385.jpg

Be honest you're an ALPA rep aren't you? Given the corny username and the being all butthurt. Great way to motivate the membership.

LOL ya sure man. You got me. Cry harder. Which base are you an MLO?

Explain to me how calling out the farcical communications coming from ALPA is crying?

CPU2000 nailed it: amateur hour. You look like naive fools completely out of your depth. Like the company not respecting this joke of a contract is somehow a surprise. If you really didn't see that coming, it's almost more concerning than just admitting you suck at negotiating.