What's the plan?

[unitatis super omnia]

Be honest you're an ALPA rep aren't you? Given the corny username and the being all butthurt. Great way to motivate the membership.

LOL ya sure man. You got me. Cry harder. Which base are you an MLO?

Explain to me how calling out the farcical communications coming from ALPA is crying?

CPU2000 nailed it: amateur hour. You look like naive fools completely out of your depth. Like the company not respecting this joke of a contract is somehow a surprise. If you really didn't see that coming, it's almost more concerning than just admitting you suck at negotiating.

If you aren't already a fops manager, you might as well put your application in because you both offer nothing but contempt for ALPA. Also, your complete lack of emotional control, zero self awareness and miserable attitude will make you a shoe in.

[TheStig]

Threads like this make you wonder who in their right mind would want to represent the membership. Management treats staff with contempt and you blame elected reps? 90 filed grievances that wouldn't be filed if legal didn't think the language supported them. I would be upset if ALPA wasn't filing grievances.

Bankruptcy, prosperity, ACPA, ALPA, policy changes, elected reps, whatever; the labour landscape is consistently changing but if every time the company ignores the contract the membership responds by blaming the union, guess what? They're going to continue with the same approach to labour relations! It's okay to be critical, but realize that the company wins when we're split into factions.

[FL030]

They hold all the cards EXCEPT when it's time to give strike notice. When you give strike notice that's when the real negotiations start. Everything up to that point is just posturing. It's critical that we give strike notice. That's what the Transat brothers just did to good results. That's where our leadership failed us last time.

[thepoors]

.

[altiplano]

Negots committee guys don't get 90.

Do you think 6 guys is too many to have negots? I almost think it's not enough given the work load going into and during. I have no problem that we put a large group forward to work for us

Elected status reps don't get full displacement from flying and they deal with a ton of bullshit every day. I have no problem with those guys getting displaced to with for us.

Transat had little option other to fold given a strike would have probably put them into bankruptcy. Glad the guys there were able to recognize significant leverage.

Altiplano,

Two questions:

1) Name one ALPA pilot group that has 6 members on the negotiating committee

2) Name one ALPA pilots group going into another round of bargaining with the same team. Especially after a very contentious round.

We all wait for a response because it has never been done before because it is insane.

This is total amateur hour from this group.

I don't know about negots at other groups? Is that more than usual? Seems like a complex task and high workload. What's normal? One risk about too small a group I to would think is that it gets more siloed and isolated. But I'm not an expert on it.

Same team? MEC executive got turned over. But lots of the same status reps are around I think. You want different people, you need to vote different status reps in. Ultimately negots and the executive report to the elected reps and march to their orders.

Last round our MEC ran a good lead up and somehow got caught by the company and blinked. It was a mistake, they chickened out. I think there were lessons learned. I think ALPA learned some lessons about Air Canada. I believe there are people that want to do it differently this time and maybe the sense is that there is less to lose.

Remember that the NC works for MEC and the MEC is the mostly the elected reps, the NC ultimately does what they are told by these people voted by the membership. The membership working max VO, answering their phone, helping the company at every turn, making side deals, stepping over one another, still wearing Air Canada company lanyards, no solidarity, scared of their shadow, not showing up at LMMs, not following the contract, incapable of saying a two letter word NO, all while complaining and dividing because they didn't get this or didn't get that and blaming the people that are actually showing up... Ultimately you need a strong and united membership, the rhetoric here serves only to divide.

I'm not convinced the guys we have are company moles like we had at Old ACPA, they might have screwed up in CA1 and could have gone further but I believe they are working for the membership. I'm certainly not holding that personally against them like I do the TA1 crowd and the ten year crowd and the traitors that gave up even more during covid and tried to thwart ALPA and any turn around for this membership. I'm still actually shocked how quickly we started to turn in '23 and how much we got given our previous track record... Keep going, building...

What do you expect from these guys going forward? What would make it not "amateur hour"? More grievances? Ultimately can't "make" the company do something, especially with weak membership, and labour law in this country is fucked up against labour...

[apples2apples]

Having the same weak MEC leaders & negotiators going into the next round will yield different results?!

[digits_]

Ultimately can't "make" the company do something, especially with weak membership, and labour law in this country is fucked up against labour...

Not my fight, however never in history have labor laws improved by playing by the -at the time- rules.
Strikes and protests are needed. I doubt alleged contract violations will spark a protest, but it should be enough for a strike, even if that's technically illegal. Nobody is going to send thousands of pilots to jail over a wildcat strike.

Stop respecting the contract if the company doesn't respect their end of it.

Anyway, carry on, best of luck either way!

[Insanity]

Having the same weak MEC leaders & negotiators going into the next round will yield different results?!

Unlikely.

I assume they will keep trying to comparing the new deal to the old 10 yrs industry embarrassing contract while ignoring the current pilot negotiating environment. Maybe throw in some fuel prices to incite some fear.

Anchor to the bad and then slip in another sub par deal without working too hard.

[Bede]

1) Name one ALPA pilot group that has 6 members on the negotiating committee

WestJet. 6 is too many though. 3-4 is ideal.

2) Name one ALPA pilots group going into another round of bargaining with the same team. Especially after a very contentious round.

Pretty much all the US carriers. The learning curve is steep. Mature groups have little turn over. It's the immature groups that fire everyone every time they don't get everything they want. Then they go into the next negotiations with an all new team and again, don't get everything they want. Then the process repeats itself.

[CPU2000]

1) Name one ALPA pilot group that has 6 members on the negotiating committee

WestJet. 6 is too many though. 3-4 is ideal.

2) Name one ALPA pilots group going into another round of bargaining with the same team. Especially after a very contentious round.

Pretty much all the US carriers. The learning curve is steep. Mature groups have little turn over. It's the immature groups that fire everyone every time they don't get everything they want. Then they go into the next negotiations with an all new team and again, don't get everything they want. Then the process repeats itself.

So we agree...6 is too many and some turnover is good.

Neither what we have here with the ACA MEC.

[khedrei]

Threads like this make you wonder who in their right mind would want to represent the membership. Management treats staff with contempt and you blame elected reps? 90 filed grievances that wouldn't be filed if legal didn't think the language supported them. I would be upset if ALPA wasn't filing grievances.

Bankruptcy, prosperity, ACPA, ALPA, policy changes, elected reps, whatever; the labour landscape is consistently changing but if every time the company ignores the contract the membership responds by blaming the union, guess what? They're going to continue with the same approach to labour relations! It's okay to be critical, but realize that the company wins when we're split into factions.

Not sure if understand this correctly so correct me if im wrong...

Are you saying the union filed 90 grievances due to contract violations? In what period of time? A week? Month? Total?

Im not sure if you think thats a lot or not... in my previous industry we literally had thousands outstanding. I think i filed close to 90 in the decade+ that I was there and i gave up for the most part as did most of us because it would simply take up all my free time. Im still getting paid on grievances to this day and I quit 8 years ago.

Perhaps im misunderstanding the context of the post.

[FatPilot]

ACPA , ALPA, even if everything else didnt change, the best part of ALPA is we / you can now recall the reps.
ACPA changed their rules to make that almost impossible. Im Happy we're / you're ALPA.

[yycflyguy]

Threads like this make you wonder who in their right mind would want to represent the membership. Management treats staff with contempt and you blame elected reps? 90 filed grievances that wouldn't be filed if legal didn't think the language supported them. I would be upset if ALPA wasn't filing grievances.

Bankruptcy, prosperity, ACPA, ALPA, policy changes, elected reps, whatever; the labour landscape is consistently changing but if every time the company ignores the contract the membership responds by blaming the union, guess what? They're going to continue with the same approach to labour relations! It's okay to be critical, but realize that the company wins when we're split into factions.

Not sure if understand this correctly so correct me if im wrong...

Are you saying the union filed 90 grievances due to contract violations? In what period of time? A week? Month? Total?

Im not sure if you think thats a lot or not... in my previous industry we literally had thousands outstanding. I think i filed close to 90 in the decade+ that I was there and i gave up for the most part as did most of us because it would simply take up all my free time. Im still getting paid on grievances to this day and I quit 8 years ago.

Perhaps im misunderstanding the context of the post.

Since contract implementation. It’s 90 topics (articles) of what has been violated with numerous individual grievances within each violation.

If you had thousands, I’d suggest you didn’t have a contract at all.

[khedrei]

Threads like this make you wonder who in their right mind would want to represent the membership. Management treats staff with contempt and you blame elected reps? 90 filed grievances that wouldn't be filed if legal didn't think the language supported them. I would be upset if ALPA wasn't filing grievances.

Bankruptcy, prosperity, ACPA, ALPA, policy changes, elected reps, whatever; the labour landscape is consistently changing but if every time the company ignores the contract the membership responds by blaming the union, guess what? They're going to continue with the same approach to labour relations! It's okay to be critical, but realize that the company wins when we're split into factions.

Not sure if understand this correctly so correct me if im wrong...

Are you saying the union filed 90 grievances due to contract violations? In what period of time? A week? Month? Total?

Im not sure if you think thats a lot or not... in my previous industry we literally had thousands outstanding. I think i filed close to 90 in the decade+ that I was there and i gave up for the most part as did most of us because it would simply take up all my free time. Im still getting paid on grievances to this day and I quit 8 years ago.

Perhaps im misunderstanding the context of the post.

Since contract implementation. It’s 90 topics (articles) of what has been violated with numerous individual grievances within each violation.

If you had thousands, I’d suggest you didn’t have a contract at all.

Thanks for the clarification. That makes a bit more sense. We did not have thousands of topics violated but we did have thousands of individual grievances.

I can assure you that we had a contract. That's why I am still getting paid. Many would argue that it wasn't very good, but in the end it had more to do with the fact that the company was WAY more hostile and belligerent than AC. They simply didn't care about the agreement and their method of dealing with the union was to overload them in hopes of bankrupting them and to kill morale, and scare the members into not submitting grievances or just taking away hope that anything will ever get solved.

[yycflyguy]

the company was WAY more hostile and belligerent than AC.

[Bede]

Thanks for the clarification. That makes a bit more sense. We did not have thousands of topics violated but we did have thousands of individual grievances.

I can assure you that we had a contract. That's why I am still getting paid. Many would argue that it wasn't very good, but in the end it had more to do with the fact that the company was WAY more hostile and belligerent than AC. They simply didn't care about the agreement and their method of dealing with the union was to overload them in hopes of bankrupting them and to kill morale, and scare the members into not submitting grievances or just taking away hope that anything will ever get solved.

Did you work for a railroad?

[khedrei]

Thanks for the clarification. That makes a bit more sense. We did not have thousands of topics violated but we did have thousands of individual grievances.

I can assure you that we had a contract. That's why I am still getting paid. Many would argue that it wasn't very good, but in the end it had more to do with the fact that the company was WAY more hostile and belligerent than AC. They simply didn't care about the agreement and their method of dealing with the union was to overload them in hopes of bankrupting them and to kill morale, and scare the members into not submitting grievances or just taking away hope that anything will ever get solved.

Did you work for a railroad?

I did. Almost 13 years, some during the Hunter Harrison days. Miserable life. Best decision ever to leave.

[Bede]

I did. Almost 13 years, some during the Hunter Harrison days. Miserable life. Best decision ever to leave.

It sounded like it. lol (The labour relations people at WestJet all came from CP. They brought the attitude with them.)