Cabotage

[lostaviator]

Time to open a can of worms - Alberta separation.

To start, you can put me in the “things within our confederation need to be fixed, but separating isn’t the way” category.

That being said, I respect the fact others have different opinions but am honestly quite shocked at the number within our Alberta employee ranks who haven’t thought of what separating would do to their careers.

We appear to have a large pro-separate group amongst us, and when I mention the word “cabotage”, I usually get the “shit, I didn’t think of that” stare.

What would WestJet look like? How many employees would we have? How many pilots? How many routes?

My best guess is we would exist as a very very very small operator serving out and back flights of Alberta.

Like everything else on the table, airline rights would have to be negotiated. I wouldn’t be holding my breath for Canada granting cabotage rights to WestJet/Alberta.

All bases outside of Alberta - closed.

Number of flights - a fraction of what we have now.

Connection/feed into our main hub - gone.

We operate 600-700 flights per day. Half of which originate or terminate in Alberta. Half of our daily flights would be wiped based on that alone. Add in the feeder network, and complexities with connecting through an international airport (since we would be one), I think the number would be much lower. I’d bet on WJ being 25% of its current size.

Just something to think about. Are our careers/loss of employment worth the “savings” (“”’s because I don’t think there actually would be any)?

[JungleRiot]

Literally nothing would chance, only beurocratic nonsense. I'd be looking forward to getting paid in USD.

[lostaviator]

Nothing would change? I want some of what you’re having!

And ok, you’re in the #51 group. How long would WJ last in that market?

[digits_]

We appear to have a large pro-separate group amongst us

Source?

Some loud voices, sure.
A lot of voices? Not sure.

[lostaviator]

We appear to have a large pro-separate group amongst us

Source?

Some loud voices, sure.
A lot of voices? Not sure.

I don’t think we need to have a survey with percentages to discuss what it might mean for our careers. I guess I could have phrased my original post as “larger than I expected based on flight deck chatter ”. I don’t have numbers. Just rough estimate based on the crews I fly with and that would be around 40%.

[safetyfirst123]

I wonder if Westjet would break up into separate OC's? Somehow protect the rest of the operation, Westjet being the current Alberta operation, and the rest forming a new airline? With tighter ties to the US, perhaps wages would go up for those that remain in Alberta. Either way, Alberta separation would be highly unlikely but it's an interesting proposition.

[Me262]

Who cares about WJ??? Your pay would triple and you'd have true legacy airlines to pick and choose if AB becomes the 51st state. Literally no other group of people would win more than pilots.

[Mach1]

It's a good question.

The more interesting part is why no one has or will ever ask the same things when it comes to Quebec separation. They've actually had a referendum about separation and continuously elect an openly separatist government on both the provincial and federal levels. Air Canada's head office is located in Montreal. It is the exact same issue, less the chance of becoming a part of the USA.

[55+]

Undoubtedly NC will shutter CZEG and transfer ATS services to Vancouver and or Winnipeg, there will be quite an airspace realignment.

[propfeather]

Who cares about WJ??? Your pay would triple and you'd have true legacy airlines to pick and choose if AB becomes the 51st state. Literally no other group of people would win more than pilots.

You say that as if it's a sure thing.. In reality it's the best case scenario and certainly possible, but I suspect it would be a very bumpy road to get there.

[digits_]

Who cares about WJ??? Your pay would triple and you'd have true legacy airlines to pick and choose if AB becomes the 51st state. Literally no other group of people would win more than pilots.

You say that as if it's a sure thing.. In reality it's the best case scenario and certainly possible, but I suspect it would be a very bumpy road to get there.

Not to mention that yes for individual pilots it could be a good financial thing, but lots of pilots have families and family members that may not thrive so well under a US social/economical system.

[daedalusx]

Yeah let’s not improve our contract and get the wages and conditions that we deserve … let’s just hope for this pipe dream that will never happen.

This fairy tale involves
Miracle #1 Complete Alberta sovereignty in a time where the Feds are getting 1M new Canadian every year and that demographic will not vote in favour of this project neither will their kids and dependents. Also, imagine thinking the Feds would actually play fair and not pull dirty tricks like in the 90s in Quebec.
Miracle #2 Somehow AB becomes 51th state with the same state rights as Texas …. Or more likely, we become the northern Venezuela or Puerto Rico - and the suffer the rape and pillaging of our resources to Big Oil ? Nono it’ll be like Oprah and every one gets an American citizenship / right to work and WestJet’s merges with Delta and we all get parachuted in with our seniority and years of service intact and we triple our earnings … ok let’s call that miracle #3

Is that really our best chance at improving our work conditions ?

Just because you watch alt-lite / alt right podcasts and your social media is filled with people that repeat the same talking points doesn’t mean shit in the real world. I remember when all these people thought we were going to get PP a majority conservative government last round and he ended humiliatingly losing his own district.

Also take a look at Brexit … it happened and arguably UK is in worst shape with immigration, economy and crime today than in 2016

[Eric Janson]

Also take a look at Brexit … it happened and arguably UK is in worst shape with immigration, economy and crime today than in 2016

BREXIT was the correct decision.

I remember watching smug Richard Quest on CNN when it looked like a no vote. His expression when he realised it was a yes vote made my day.

The problem is that it wasn't supposed to happen.

The Politicians and the 'Elites' in the UK didn't want BREXIT and have been sabotaging it ever since. There are calls for a new vote.

The current state of the UK (imminent social collapse) is largely due to the useless leaders that somehow get elected.

As for Alberta separation. I'm not opposed - but it will require strong leadership which I'm not seeing.

I have my doubts about this ever becoming reality. Jmho.

[daedalusx]

Also take a look at Brexit … it happened and arguably UK is in worst shape with immigration, economy and crime today than in 2016

BREXIT was the correct decision.

I remember watching smug Richard Quest on CNN when it looked like a no vote. His expression when he realised it was a yes vote made my day.

The problem is that it wasn't supposed to happen.

The Politicians and the 'Elites' in the UK didn't want BREXIT and have been sabotaging it ever since. There are calls for a new vote.

The current state of the UK (imminent social collapse) is largely due to the useless leaders that somehow get elected.

As for Alberta separation. I'm not opposed - but it will require strong leadership which I'm not seeing.

I have my doubts about this ever becoming reality. Jmho.

Brexit was absolutely the right decision back in 2016. Don’t get me wrong. My point is that it didn’t solve anything and in the very very very unlikely event that Alberta secedes… it will also be sabotaged …

UK is completely ungovernable and it doesn’t matter who runs the show, conservative or labour… just look at how many prime ministers they’ve been through in the last 5 years

[Mach1]

There are structural issues with confederation. If you don't see that, I'm not going to go into the detail to explain it and prove it to you... you can do your own research.

Since confederation, central Canada has treated the west more like territories or colonies than provinces. That's the short version.

Since there is no motivation nor any will to address issues within Canada by central Canada that originate or exist outside of central Canada, how do you propose change is initiated? Because the historical answer has been, "do what we tell you." That has to end or the nation has to end. Power must be redistributed to more accurately reflect the populations and regional interests/issues that occur thousands of miles away from Ottawa.

If something doesn't work, you fix it. If you can't fix it (or won't fix it), then you need to replace it.

[Tanker299]

Alberta will never separate in any pilots currently posting on this forums working career. If Quebec could not do it, this redneck led movement won’t either.

The balance of power concentrated in the East needs to change. Alberta has the least amount per person at about 135,000 per seat, B.C. Is not far behind. Most provinces sit around 80,000-100,000 except PEI with 45,000.

[flyingcanuck]

Literally nothing would chance, only beurocratic nonsense. I'd be looking forward to getting paid in USD.

Ill have what this guy is having pls

[Mach1]

If Quebec could not do it, this redneck led movement won’t either.

Look at how much Quebec has gotten for themselves through the threat of separation. The playbook has been written and it's successful. No one needs to rewrite the manual.

[SPR]

Alberta will never separate in any pilots currently posting on this forums working career. If Quebec could not do it, this redneck led movement won’t either.

The balance of power concentrated in the East needs to change. Alberta has the least amount per person at about 135,000 per seat, B.C. Is not far behind. Most provinces sit around 80,000-100,000 except PEI with 45,000.

This is incorrect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populatio ... /territory Alberta's is 115206. BC's is higher at 116299, and ONTARIO has the highest average population per riding at 116589. Quebec is only marginally smaller than Alberta at 108997, which is above the national average, while the other western provinces are significantly better represented at 95868 for Manitoba, and only 80893 for Saskatchewan.

[Tanker299]

[quote=Tanker299 post_id=<a href="tel:1357963">1357963</a> time=<a href="tel:1783569932">1783569932</a> user_id=30409]
Alberta will never separate in any pilots currently posting on this forums working career. If Quebec could not do it, this redneck led movement won’t either.

The balance of power concentrated in the East needs to change. Alberta has the least amount per person at about 135,000 per seat, B.C. Is not far behind. Most provinces sit around 80,000-100,000 except PEI with 45,000.

This is incorrect: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Populatio ... /territory Alberta's is 115206. BC's is higher at 116299, and ONTARIO has the highest average population per riding at 116589. Quebec is only marginally smaller than Alberta at 108997, which is above the national average, while the other western provinces are significantly better represented at 95868 for Manitoba, and only 80893 for Saskatchewan.

Depends on where you get your population stats from. Wikipedia is about the last place I would get information from. It has a small group of people who think they are in the know and protect their little corner of the internet. Go look up the biggest city by land area and you will see how they say because Ville in French means city and they don’t use a different word blah blah that the biggest cities in Canada are places that are towns of 2,000 people or some dumb number when they are just municipalities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... da_by_area

Alberta has 37 seats. My simple research shows a population of 5,057,077 people in the berta. That divided by the above is 136,677.75676.

[SPR]

Depends on where you get your population stats from. Wikipedia is about the last place I would get information from. It has a small group of people who think they are in the know and protect their little corner of the internet. Go look up the biggest city by land area and you will see how they say because Ville in French means city and they don’t use a different word blah blah that the biggest cities in Canada are places that are towns of 2,000 people or some dumb number when they are just municipalities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... da_by_area

Alberta has 37 seats. My simple research shows a population of 5,057,077 people in the berta. That divided by the above is 136,677.75676.

The population stats come from the Library of Parliament. You can do the math yourself, if you'd like, but I thought that using the Wikipedia article would provide a convenient shorthand.

The re-drawing of federal ridings occurred in 2022 following the 2021 census. The numbers capture a moment in time following that event, so of course they don't reflect real-time populations, and they certainly won't reflect unprecedented growth over the last year. Redistributions happen every ten years, and if the current trends continue Alberta will gain a significant number of MPs, but it's ridiculous to expect that the system should constantly adjust for migration that took place since that census. Do you expect riding boundaries to fluctuate continuously as people move around the country?

[digits_]

Depends on where you get your population stats from. Wikipedia is about the last place I would get information from. It has a small group of people who think they are in the know and protect their little corner of the internet. Go look up the biggest city by land area and you will see how they say because Ville in French means city and they don’t use a different word blah blah that the biggest cities in Canada are places that are towns of 2,000 people or some dumb number when they are just municipalities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... da_by_area

It's a list of cities and towns. It says so in the bloody title. The table header is literally labelled 'Municipality'. It explains what definition of town it uses...

Perhaps read the article before complaining about it?

[seriousflyer]

Who cares about WJ??? Your pay would triple and you'd have true legacy airlines to pick and choose if AB becomes the 51st state. Literally no other group of people would win more than pilots.

You're on glue.

[Tanker299]

Depends on where you get your population stats from. Wikipedia is about the last place I would get information from. It has a small group of people who think they are in the know and protect their little corner of the internet. Go look up the biggest city by land area and you will see how they say because Ville in French means city and they don’t use a different word blah blah that the biggest cities in Canada are places that are towns of 2,000 people or some dumb number when they are just municipalities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_t ... da_by_area

It's a list of cities and towns. It says so in the bloody title. The table header is literally labelled 'Municipality'. It explains what definition of town it uses...

Perhaps read the article before complaining about it?

I edited it so it was more accurate. It was interesting how many times people tried to remove the loose use of Ville. The whole point is Wiki is not the best place to source information.