Flair Pilots Better Starting & Top End Pay Now?!

[CGFCK]

Ahhh yes. The Yes voting MEC Members working hard on behalf of the membership by taking care of themselves.

[cdnavater]

I am quite literally confused on what I am supposed to do.

I am supposed to volunteer my time so my elected reps can use my dues to pay for their ALPA days when they are supposed to be doing union work to better working conditions but instead turn around and do Volunteer Overtime?

So I am supposed to spend my free time doing union work while the guys who are supposed to be doing union work on ALPA time are doing VOLUNTEER OT?

What am I missing here.

Seems outrageous.

Seems like they learned it from the JAZ MEC. YUL based reps being the worst offenders.

You can’t fix stupid. But you can reign it in.

The ALPA WAWCON that your reps have comes from the membership. If there is abuse - draw the line or replace the ‘rep’ that thinks his/her extra income opportunities are a more important use of time than representing the pilots.

And, the Jazz MEC just voted to undo the cap and return to the prior policy(rev 31), wish I could say I was surprised!
“Maximum Credit Limit Adjustments: The MEC voted to undo a previous restriction and return to our prior policy (REV 31), which caps volunteer flight limits at 120/125 credits. The council agreed that ALPA volunteers shouldn’t be structurally disadvantaged from picking up WDOs or FLICA adds simply because they help the union. This Policy will be reviewed by the Policy Manual Review Committee (PMRC) and recommendations will be brought forward at the next Regular MEC Meeting.”

[rudder]

I am quite literally confused on what I am supposed to do.

I am supposed to volunteer my time so my elected reps can use my dues to pay for their ALPA days when they are supposed to be doing union work to better working conditions but instead turn around and do Volunteer Overtime?

So I am supposed to spend my free time doing union work while the guys who are supposed to be doing union work on ALPA time are doing VOLUNTEER OT?

What am I missing here.

Seems outrageous.

Seems like they learned it from the JAZ MEC. YUL based reps being the worst offenders.

You can’t fix stupid. But you can reign it in.

The ALPA WAWCON that your reps have comes from the membership. If there is abuse - draw the line or replace the ‘rep’ that thinks his/her extra income opportunities are a more important use of time than representing the pilots.

And, the Jazz MEC just voted to undo the cap and return to the prior policy(rev 31), wish I could say I was surprised!
“Maximum Credit Limit Adjustments: The MEC voted to undo a previous restriction and return to our prior policy (REV 31), which caps volunteer flight limits at 120/125 credits. The council agreed that ALPA volunteers shouldn’t be structurally disadvantaged from picking up WDOs or FLICA adds simply because they help the union. This Policy will be reviewed by the Policy Manual Review Committee (PMRC) and recommendations will be brought forward at the next Regular MEC Meeting.”

Well, the status reps that voted for this were elected by the membership.

Up to the members to decide if this is what they want. There is a reason that the ALPA By-Laws have recall provisions. It is to ensure accountability.

ALPA By-Laws do not permit a floor motion at a meeting to direct Local Council action. The JAZ MEC (and in particular the MEC CHMN) are well aware of that. But that does not mean that the topic cannot be discussed and member sentiments clearly expressed. Recall is the ultimate hammer.

Due to time free from duty, representatives on ALPA time (extra days off) have a distinct advantage over line pilots to add overtime without the CARS FTDT limitations that affect their members. To suggest or pretend otherwise is totally disingenuous and an insult to the membership.

Want to get paid over 125 credits? Return to the line and give it a try.

[ClearedDirect]

Due to time free from duty, representatives on ALPA time (extra days off) have a distinct advantage over line pilots to add overtime without the CARS FTDT limitations that affect their members. To suggest or pretend otherwise is totally disingenuous and an insult to the membership.

Want to get paid over 125 credits? Return to the line and give it a try.

1000%

The YVR & YUL reps in question are a disgrace.

[AllthatJazz]

Kinda new here but saw the Jazz shenanigans...

So the same people that think it is ok to do volunteer overtime while being given ALPA hours to do union work are the same guys responsible for negotiating?

And they think it is a great idea to go with the exact same negotiating committee despite poor results?

[Bede]

Lol Bede...

Tell us you don't know shit without saying you don't know shit.

The root of the problem for us juniors is Percent of Captain Pay. PCP... YOU KNOW ME?!

This is why ALPA majors have fixed this.

Until you fix that, you will get boomer Captains getting 4 times the raise.

And if you think a 20 something year old pilot is going to have a career of a Boomer, I'd tune in on what is happening with AI and the middle class. Holy shit Bede you need to get to your fishing boat!

I've said on the record that FO pay should be a top priority for all Canadian airlines. However, if you think that a junior pilot should get a 50% raise while a senior pilot should see 10%, because they both work out to ~$40/hr, then I question your ability to understand how you're compensated over your lifetime. (You know, that part where you spend most of your career at the top rate.)

[BigGreen]

Lol Bede...

Tell us you don't know shit without saying you don't know shit.

The root of the problem for us juniors is Percent of Captain Pay. PCP... YOU KNOW ME?!

This is why ALPA majors have fixed this.

Until you fix that, you will get boomer Captains getting 4 times the raise.

And if you think a 20 something year old pilot is going to have a career of a Boomer, I'd tune in on what is happening with AI and the middle class. Holy shit Bede you need to get to your fishing boat!

I've said on the record that FO pay should be a top priority for all Canadian airlines. However, if you think that a junior pilot should get a 50% raise while a senior pilot should see 10%, because they both work out to ~$40/hr, then I question your ability to understand how you're compensated over your lifetime. (You know, that part where you spend most of your career at the top rate.)

The best part about this is that:

At $80k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 28-31 cents in tax.

At $350k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 53-54 cents in tax

So most of the large increase didn't even go to the Senior pilot, it went to the government.

I can't believe with all that leverage they didnt fix Percent of Captain pay. And then I see the same "union" guys whoring themselves for volunteer OT instead of doing union work. My dues going to them is just hard to handle.

They should all resign.

[Bede]

The best part about this is that:

At $80k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 28-31 cents in tax.

At $350k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 53-54 cents in tax

So most of the large increase didn't even go to the Senior pilot, it went to the government.

That's true. As is the argument that the time value of money favours earlier pay. It's still offset though by the future earning though.

Remember, a pay raise for the top guys is still a pay raise for you- you just need to wait for it.

I am also a proponent of FO pay as a percentage of captain pay. BUT, this mathematically guarantees that a captain earning x% more wages will see an x% increase above a junior pilot.

[flieslikeachicken]

Add that

The best part about this is that:

At $80k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 28-31 cents in tax.

At $350k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 53-54 cents in tax

So most of the large increase didn't even go to the Senior pilot, it went to the government.

I can't believe with all that leverage they didnt fix Percent of Captain pay. And then I see the same "union" guys whoring themselves for volunteer OT instead of doing union work. My dues going to them is just hard to handle.

They should all resign.

Add that extra dollar to the per diem rate.

[PositiveRate27]

So I took a look at beyond my own base and see the YVR FO Rep is nearly #1 for the ENTIRE base too. And he is a Captain?! So he represents the Jr FOs by ignoring them doing VO?

This is insane. This among a thousand plus pilots.

ALPA MEC Reps behaving like pigs at a trough when they get their 90 hrs or whatever and then do VO.

Disgraceful behavior.

LEC Status reps like the YVR one in question are not paid 90hrs, they are given a certain amount of ALPA days per month off the monthly DBM. I’ve done union work in the past and I can assure you the amount of time committed to it far exceeds the displacement days that are allotted.

With that said, some will still find a moral issue with it and that is their right. Just wanted to clarify that most (if not all) of the ALPA reps doing VO are NOT doing VO on top of a 90hr guarantee. Only an extremely small amount of MEC executives get the 90hr displacement.

[altiplano]

Looked it up... "up to 8 ALPA business days" for each of the 10 status reps. Can be redistributed by ALPA as required to other ALPA reps or volunteers on each base too.

Not sure how many "up to" means is typical, but it's paid by the company not member dues.

I don't think doing OT is a good look for anyone that is a unionist, but looking at blocks, it's not guys on full duty release doing it. Looks like these guys all still have blocks they are flying every month which is a heck of a lot better than previous ACPA reps that had full release and were disconnected from the line.

[gqra]

The best part about this is that:

At $80k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 28-31 cents in tax.

At $350k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 53-54 cents in tax

So most of the large increase didn't even go to the Senior pilot, it went to the government.

That's true. As is the argument that the time value of money favours earlier pay. It's still offset though by the future earning though.

Remember, a pay raise for the top guys is still a pay raise for you- you just need to wait for it.

I am also a proponent of FO pay as a percentage of captain pay. BUT, this mathematically guarantees that a captain earning x% more wages will see an x% increase above a junior pilot.

The problem is that the wage is not commensurate with the job requirements. AC is not hiring 18 year olds with no living expenses. A lot of qualified people are not interested in starting over in their careers regarding pay and qol.

For all the "Well then dont apply" people. Ok AC will just run out of applicants and get an LMIA like encore tried? We should be conscious of how we want the profession to be in the future. Overall. Not just my own pay in 12 years.

[khedrei]

The best part about this is that:

At $80k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 28-31 cents in tax.

At $350k:
Every extra $1 earned might cost about 53-54 cents in tax

So most of the large increase didn't even go to the Senior pilot, it went to the government.

That's true. As is the argument that the time value of money favours earlier pay. It's still offset though by the future earning though.

Remember, a pay raise for the top guys is still a pay raise for you- you just need to wait for it.

I am also a proponent of FO pay as a percentage of captain pay. BUT, this mathematically guarantees that a captain earning x% more wages will see an x% increase above a junior pilot.

The problem is that the wage is not commensurate with the job requirements. AC is not hiring 18 year olds with no living expenses. A lot of qualified people are not interested in starting over in their careers regarding pay and qol.

For all the "Well then dont apply" people. Ok AC will just run out of applicants and get an LMIA like encore tried? We should be conscious of how we want the profession to be in the future. Overall. Not just my own pay in 12 years.

AC will never run out of applicants and try to get LMIA. Even in a worst case scenario, the applicants will just get worse as pilots leave other carriers. AC knows this, thats why they will always have the leverage that they do to keep the starting FO pay close to the bottom of the barrel.

[Man_in_the_sky]

That's true. As is the argument that the time value of money favours earlier pay. It's still offset though by the future earning though.

Remember, a pay raise for the top guys is still a pay raise for you- you just need to wait for it.

I am also a proponent of FO pay as a percentage of captain pay. BUT, this mathematically guarantees that a captain earning x% more wages will see an x% increase above a junior pilot.

The problem is that the wage is not commensurate with the job requirements. AC is not hiring 18 year olds with no living expenses. A lot of qualified people are not interested in starting over in their careers regarding pay and qol.

For all the "Well then dont apply" people. Ok AC will just run out of applicants and get an LMIA like encore tried? We should be conscious of how we want the profession to be in the future. Overall. Not just my own pay in 12 years.

AC will never run out of applicants and try to get LMIA. Even in a worst case scenario, the applicants will just get worse as pilots leave other carriers. AC knows this, thats why they will always have the leverage that they do to keep the starting FO pay close to the bottom of the barrel.

I think everyone would be okay to have a 1st step that's lower. but as soon as you hit step 2, you should be on the same formula than everyone else.

the first year, you only fly also 75% of the year, you're in training the first 3 month.

[crystalpizza]

The problem is that the wage is not commensurate with the job requirements. AC is not hiring 18 year olds with no living expenses. A lot of qualified people are not interested in starting over in their careers regarding pay and qol.

For all the "Well then dont apply" people. Ok AC will just run out of applicants and get an LMIA like encore tried? We should be conscious of how we want the profession to be in the future. Overall. Not just my own pay in 12 years.

AC will never run out of applicants and try to get LMIA. Even in a worst case scenario, the applicants will just get worse as pilots leave other carriers. AC knows this, thats why they will always have the leverage that they do to keep the starting FO pay close to the bottom of the barrel.

I think everyone would be okay to have a 1st step that's lower. but as soon as you hit step 2, you should be on the same formula than everyone else.

the first year, you only fly also 75% of the year, you're in training the first 3 month.

At AC, not quite. For pay purposes your YOS date is considered to be the date of your first line check or 90 days after DOH whichever is earlier. Most people don't see their next pay step until the 4th or so month after their DOH. It's another one of the more unexpectedly annoying contract issues for juniors here.

[altiplano]

It's maximum 90 days for pay progression date.

A Pilot’s pay progression date will be the earlier of:
The day following the successful completion of their initial line check: or
90 days from the start of their Pilot Indoctrination Training course; or
The day following the successful completion of the initial line check of a Pilot who is junior to them.

[CGFCK]

Looked it up... "up to 8 ALPA business days" for each of the 10 status reps. Can be redistributed by ALPA as required to other ALPA reps or volunteers on each base too.

Not sure how many "up to" means is typical, but it's paid by the company not member dues.

I don't think doing OT is a good look for anyone that is a unionist, but looking at blocks, it's not guys on full duty release doing it. Looks like these guys all still have blocks they are flying every month which is a heck of a lot better than previous ACPA reps that had full release and were disconnected from the line.

Talked to a non corrupt Rep (need to pick & choose these days) and he said the YVR /YUL reps do "start credit" so they get the hours for the month. 8 days X 5 hrs = 40 hrs paid to start. Then fill up their block with a few days of flying. This gives them 25 days off to do VO trips & sim seat fills. Really great leadership

[altiplano]

Looks like it's 4:25 per day in the contract, not 5:00. I don't think you can work on Union release days either... hmm... and I see guys working many more than 5 days?

I'm not sure it sounds totally accurate from whoever you're speaking with about it...

[CGFCK]

Looks like it's 4:25 per day in the contract, not 5:00. I don't think you can work on Union release days either... hmm... and I see guys working many more than 5 days?

I'm not sure it sounds totally accurate from whoever you're speaking with about it...

I was told they just take the hours and then get the credit without blocking any days off.

I think youre right about the 4:25. So 8 days X 4:25 without lifting a finger to start the month.

Take a look at the YVR FO Rep. 120 hrs in June. Just milking it.

[Mr. North]

"Without lifting a finger"

Absolutely! Imagine coaching pilots through endless additional training meetings, the parade of disciplinary meetings, fielding every "CS is screwing me" call at all hours, all while trying to hold the company to account. Never mind the bottomless inbox and the DARTs. The family dinner or kids' baseball practice cut short by another phone call. The long planned day off surrendered to yet another disciplinary hearing or whatever else that "just can't wait". The wife asking, again, if the phone could maybe stay in the other room. All without lifting a finger, apparently. Easiest job in the airline. A real gravy train. Some dude on AvCanada said so, and they would know.

[Daniel Cooper]

AC will never run out of applicants and try to get LMIA. Even in a worst case scenario, the applicants will just get worse as pilots leave other carriers. AC knows this, thats why they will always have the leverage that they do to keep the starting FO pay close to the bottom of the barrel.

They already kind of have it. Our government started Express Entry immigration for foreign pilots earlier this year.

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-re ... ories.html

[rudder]

Looks like it's 4:25 per day in the contract, not 5:00. I don't think you can work on Union release days either... hmm... and I see guys working many more than 5 days?

I'm not sure it sounds totally accurate from whoever you're speaking with about it...

I was told they just take the hours and then get the credit without blocking any days off.

I think youre right about the 4:25. So 8 days X 4:25 without lifting a finger to start the month.

Take a look at the YVR FO Rep. 120 hrs in June. Just milking it.

Also known as …… The JAZ MEC Plan.

[Protonpilot]

I think youre right about the 4:25. So 8 days X 4:25 without lifting a finger to start the month.

"...without lifting a finger..."

Geez...

Can I guess, spoken by someone who's never volunteered for a union committee or taken on an elected position?

[daedalusx]

The entire darts system should be replaced by a Claude/Chatgpt pro subscription

[CGFCK]

"Without lifting a finger"

Absolutely! Imagine coaching pilots through endless additional training meetings, the parade of disciplinary meetings, fielding every "CS is screwing me" call at all hours, all while trying to hold the company to account. Never mind the bottomless inbox and the DARTs. The family dinner or kids' baseball practice cut short by another phone call. The long planned day off surrendered to yet another disciplinary hearing or whatever else that "just can't wait". The wife asking, again, if the phone could maybe stay in the other room. All without lifting a finger, apparently. Easiest job in the airline. A real gravy train. Some dude on AvCanada said so, and they would know.

My point is that it is start credit. So he got those hours without lifting a finger besides clicking "start credit".

Obviously he has to do the union work. Which apparently isnt much with his ability to do 120 hours of Overtime.