Is this job worth being broke for the next decade?

[lostav8r]

Hi hoping to hear from people who have been in a similar boat, I’m in my 30s and have been working an office job that was paying well until recently, I didn’t plan on staying forever but due to the economy my income has been cut by 40%, I’m almost done flight training but the economy has hit aviation even harder.

Taking a pay cut has really made me stressed about money, I’m realizing that it could be a decade or more to get to a captain job at a 705 and have a block.

Right now the northern operators have told me PIW wait lists are 3 years, that’s just to get into a flying position and you’re making minimum wage the entire time.

If you somehow pass the PPC after not flying for 3 years you’re hoping the regionals will be taking people in 6 or 7 years when you’ve gotten your ATPL.

I’m starting to feel like this is a lost cause especially for someone who is already stressed about money?

[propfeather]

I think you're being pretty pessimistic with these timelines. Going further off the beaten path (outside of Ontario) will reduce your time in a ground position to closer to one year. Is Tindi still giving PPCs and a part time flying schedule to every new hire right off the bat?

It's up to you to decide which sacrifices you're willing to make and for how long. It does pay off for the majority of people.

I don't know you, but it sounds like this may not be the industry for you.

[lostav8r]

I think you're being pretty pessimistic with these timelines. Going further off the beaten path (outside of Ontario) will reduce your time in a ground position to closer to one year. Is Tindi still giving PPCs and a part time flying schedule to every new hire right off the bat?

It's up to you to decide which sacrifices you're willing to make and for how long. It does pay off for the majority of people.

I don't know you, but it sounds like this may not be the industry for you.

I went to the Flying expo a few months back and two years is what the HR people told me from multiple operators around the country, but that was before the Iran war.


I’m feeling like with the ATPL changes it’ll be even harder to get to a regional if you do manage to get to a first job?

[digits_]

I think you're being pretty pessimistic with these timelines. Going further off the beaten path (outside of Ontario) will reduce your time in a ground position to closer to one year. Is Tindi still giving PPCs and a part time flying schedule to every new hire right off the bat?

It's up to you to decide which sacrifices you're willing to make and for how long. It does pay off for the majority of people.

I don't know you, but it sounds like this may not be the industry for you.

I went to the Flying expo a few months back and two years is what the HR people told me from multiple operators around the country, but that was before the Iran war.


I’m feeling like with the ATPL changes it’ll be even harder to get to a regional if you do manage to get to a first job?

The companies that might hire you likely won't attend expos like that.

Financially, flying rarely makes sense if you can get another well paying job. You really only should do it if you live everything about it and can afford to wait a decade or more to make proper money. I don't think it's worth it otherwise. Flying privately might make more sense, but you'll wonder 'what if '. It's an expensive question to answer though.

Or try to find something resembling a part time flying job with another flexible job on the side. Might make it more palatable.

Either way, best of luck!

[Flight94]

I switched careers to aviation at 35. Took 9 years to become a NB captain. I never worked a ramp. I prioritized PIC from the start, and I was willing to move wherever I needed to.

I make more money and work less than at any other time in my life. For me, worth it. But it certainly isn't for everyone. Good luck.

[lostav8r]

I switched careers to aviation at 35. Took 9 years to become a NB captain. I never worked a ramp. I prioritized PIC from the start, and I was willing to move wherever I needed to.

I make more money and work less than at any other time in my life. For me, worth it. But it certainly isn't for everyone. Good luck.

I know it's over a decade later, but any advice for someone starting out?

[flying4dollars]

I'm flying with a lot of new hires that went from college to Jazz/704 operator, spent 3-5 years then came to AC. Even at 10 years to NB captain anywhere in Canada, you can still log PIC on 704/705 operators and make good money before you make it to the majors so it's not like you have to wait 10+ years to make good money.

Only you can determine if the financial metrics of this career work for you. It's certainly not a career for everyone and you have to be willing to make a number of sacrifices that other careers avoid.

[Flight94]

I switched careers to aviation at 35. Took 9 years to become a NB captain. I never worked a ramp. I prioritized PIC from the start, and I was willing to move wherever I needed to.

I make more money and work less than at any other time in my life. For me, worth it. But it certainly isn't for everyone. Good luck.

I know it's over a decade later, but any advice for someone starting out?

I was interested in flying for a particular company, as they flew alot, it was interesting, and it was PIC, but they weren't hiring. I called the ops manager, told him I'm interested in working there and asked if I could come have a look. He said sure, I went, got a tour, had a nice visit, left a resume.

He had a stack of emailed resumes but I was his first call when they had an opening 2 months later. Had a thousand hours PIC a year later, and it was easy to move onwards and upwards after that.

[pelmet]

I think you're being pretty pessimistic with these timelines. Going further off the beaten path (outside of Ontario) will reduce your time in a ground position to closer to one year. Is Tindi still giving PPCs and a part time flying schedule to every new hire right off the bat?

It's up to you to decide which sacrifices you're willing to make and for how long. It does pay off for the majority of people.

I don't know you, but it sounds like this may not be the industry for you.

I went to the Flying expo a few months back and two years is what the HR people told me from multiple operators around the country, but that was before the Iran war.


I’m feeling like with the ATPL changes it’ll be even harder to get to a regional if you do manage to get to a first job?

The sooner you get the dock/ground job, the sooner you will be flying. Buffalo this winter could have you flying in the spring.

[lostav8r]

I think you're being pretty pessimistic with these timelines. Going further off the beaten path (outside of Ontario) will reduce your time in a ground position to closer to one year. Is Tindi still giving PPCs and a part time flying schedule to every new hire right off the bat?

It's up to you to decide which sacrifices you're willing to make and for how long. It does pay off for the majority of people.

I don't know you, but it sounds like this may not be the industry for you.

I went to the Flying expo a few months back and two years is what the HR people told me from multiple operators around the country, but that was before the Iran war.


I’m feeling like with the ATPL changes it’ll be even harder to get to a regional if you do manage to get to a first job?

The sooner you get the dock/ground job, the sooner you will be flying. Buffalo this winter could have you flying in the spring.

Ramp waits are 2-3 years from when I spoke to numerous HR people a few months ago at several operators

[pelmet]

I went to the Flying expo a few months back and two years is what the HR people told me from multiple operators around the country, but that was before the Iran war.


I’m feeling like with the ATPL changes it’ll be even harder to get to a regional if you do manage to get to a first job?

The sooner you get the dock/ground job, the sooner you will be flying. Buffalo this winter could have you flying in the spring.

Ramp waits are 2-3 years from when I spoke to numerous HR people a few months ago at several operators

They are testing to see who gives up easily. If you start, expect others ahead of you to give up and you are there at the right time. Places like Buffalo don't want those who give up easily.

[CaptDukeNukem]

Also consider the instructing route. Most schools are looking for instructors. Spend a few years teaching what you’re learning, get actual flight time, spend a couple years getting a ton of circuit time. But at least those hours count to some degree versus the ramp hours spent waiting.

[lostav8r]

Also consider the instructing route. Most schools are looking for instructors. Spend a few years teaching what you’re learning, get actual flight time, spend a couple years getting a ton of circuit time. But at least those hours count to some degree versus the ramp hours spent waiting.

I know several who can't get a job, it seem that schools mostly hire the folks they trained, and it's like a 1 or 2 out of 10 in a class get hired?

[altiplano]

Sounds like a lot of questions and realisations you should have been coming up with before you dropped cash on pursuing a job/career where success is unlikely for most...

If you aren't all in, your chance of success is lower. If you aren't willing to sacrifice, you chance if success is even lower yet. Especially now, the jobs that lead to $350K-$500K airline Captain are competitive to get.

You're also measuring your success wrong at this point and looking too far ahead. Keep 705 airliner captain in your head, but focus on the successes you need to reach long before that wet dream ever happens... sounds like you need to get your IFR done, and get a first job still.

Focus on that, all in, really commit, and do whatever it takes - otherwise all the other steps and milestones will never come... first job, first upgrade, first turbine, first airline, first jet, then first jet command... You've got a lot of steps to make still... focus on that first one.

Oh... and of those 1 or 2 in 10 that get the instructor job, 1 or 2 in 10 will be airline captains... that's what you're up against.

[lostav8r]

Sounds like a lot of questions and realisations you should have been coming up with before you dropped cash on pursuing a job/career where success is unlikely for most...

If you aren't all in, your chance of success is lower. If you aren't willing to sacrifice, you chance if success is even lower yet. Especially now, the jobs that lead to $350K-$500K airline Captain are competitive to get.

You're also measuring your success wrong at this point and looking too far ahead. Keep 705 airliner captain in your head, but focus on the successes you need to reach long before that wet dream ever happens... sounds like you need to get your IFR done, and get a first job still.

Focus on that, all in, really commit, and do whatever it takes - otherwise all the other steps and milestones will never come... first job, first upgrade, first turbine, first airline, first jet, then first jet command... You've got a lot of steps to make still... focus on that first one.

Oh... and of those 1 or 2 in 10 that get the instructor job, 1 or 2 in 10 will be airline captains... that's what you're up against.

Thanks altiplano, failing IFR 2x took all the wind out of my sails, I’ve been doing this for a decade now so the market was a lot better when I started! Giving up is probably the most realistic option overall

[altiplano]

If giving up is what you got from that then maybe that's what you want to hear... The road isn't easy, it's not like sitting in an office, it takes enormous dedication. 10 years ago I don't think it was an easy path to follow either... Better than 20 years ago, but I had very qualified friends that never made the show and were dropping out 10-15 ago and moving on with their lives...

Failing your IFR 2x? WTF? Yeah, if you're tight on cash blowing money on extra rides isn't helping... you have another thread mentioning a couple issues, didn't sound like failure points to me. What's their reason for the failure? Was it the same ACP? Independent or flight school employee? Don't let yourself get taken advantage of.

[lostav8r]

If giving up is what you got from that then maybe that's what you want to hear... The road isn't easy, it's not like sitting in an office, it takes enormous dedication. 10 years ago I don't think it was an easy path to follow either... Better than 20 years ago, but I had very qualified friends that never made the show and were dropping out 10-15 ago and moving on with their lives...

Failing your IFR 2x? WTF? Yeah, if you're tight on cash blowing money on extra rides isn't helping... you have another thread mentioning a couple issues, didn't sound like failure points to me. What's their reason for the failure? Was it the same ACP? Independent or flight school employee? Don't let yourself get taken advantage of.

I didn’t trust I could rewrite my (soon to expire inrat) so did the flight test too soon and I partialed the test (I have trouble staying within the dot on the cdi/glideslope when I hand fly) I didn’t have time to properly prepare for the 2nd attempt.

The examiner was more than fair and doesn’t work for the school

[altiplano]

"when you hand fly" - that's all you should be doing at your level, I can't believe they would allow AP use for initial IFR training.

Chasing g/s with pitch will do it... pitch for speed, power for slope... How far out are you now from your last failure? You know what you're problem is, are you going to go get it done?

[lostav8r]

"when you hand fly" - that's all you should be doing at your level, I can't believe they would allow AP use for initial IFR training.

Chasing g/s with pitch will do it... pitch for speed, power for slope... How far out are you now from your last failure? You know what you're problem is, are you going to go get it done?

Not really used to Flying something with this much momentum so even if I change the power, it takes a while to notice a difference!

My last failure was in May and I had two flights recently, one of them fully hand flown but both had shaky but slightly better approaches

[nohojob]

I started to fly at 35.
25 years later, I think it was worth it.

The start was not a walk in the park though

[pelmet]

I started early at 19. Was working for a small airline when I was 18. Still remember how excited I was to be on a twin turboprop loading it(somehow, that did wear off).

But I was obsessed with aircraft and spent years loading and cleI g aircraft and finally got that first job. Things progressed quickly after that, although there were slow periods.

Now it seems they want instant gratification.

If you don’t have the obsession and drive, you should avoid the industry. And that goes for all industries.

[rudder]

I started early at 19. Was working for a small airline when I was 18. Still remember how excited I was to be on a twin turboprop loading it(somehow, that did wear off).

But I was obsessed with aircraft and spent years loading and cleI g aircraft and finally got that first job. Things progressed quickly after that, although there were slow periods.

Now it seems they want instant gratification.

If you don’t have the obsession and drive, you should avoid the industry. And that goes for all industries.

The ‘how we did it path’ is very different for those born in 50’s/60’s vs 70’s/80’s vs 90’s/millennials. There are pilots whose resumes regularly included ‘layoff’. That is hardly the case anymore (COVID era excepted).

If I have learned anything after having spent decades in aviation, it is that the path changes over time. But the personal attributes of commitment, perseverance, focus, prioritization, motivation, and discipline are usually present in successful aviation professionals. And a little good luck.

Some will say that it is easier now than it was in the past. But if you factor in the relative cost, I am not sure that is true. Just because you don’t have to stand on top of a fuel truck in Sandy Lake at -30c doesn’t mean that it is easy. It’s just different.

Commercial aviation will always be subject to the vagaries of the economic cycle and the goals or competency of airline CEO’s. Pilots are just along for the ride.

I still think that it is a worthy vocation for someone starting out. But be prepared for change as the growth of technology in aviation is exponential.

[IJNShiroyuki]

Ramp wait time can change and hiring can change very quickly. in 2023 many northern operator in ontario have a sub 1 year wait time, and in 2024 it changed to almost 2 year. 2 and half years seems like a pretty optimistic estimate at my company. If a recession come soon when AI bubble burst next year...... oh well

[lostav8r]

Ramp wait time can change and hiring can change very quickly. in 2023 many northern operator in ontario have a sub 1 year wait time, and in 2024 it changed to almost 2 year. 2 and half years seems like a pretty optimistic estimate at my company. If a recession come soon when AI bubble burst next year...... oh well

I heard some companies laid off a lot of their rampies as well, any suggestions on what steps to take for a first job?

[IJNShiroyuki]

Ramp wait time can change and hiring can change very quickly. in 2023 many northern operator in ontario have a sub 1 year wait time, and in 2024 it changed to almost 2 year. 2 and half years seems like a pretty optimistic estimate at my company. If a recession come soon when AI bubble burst next year...... oh well

I heard some companies laid off a lot of their rampies as well, any suggestions on what steps to take for a first job?

Well not really. If you want to get into your first flying just, it's better to get in line now rather than later. It sucks for sure but otherwise... what are you going to do? Instructing isn't any better off, you spend another 15k on getting a instructor rating, 3 year later you still have a find a job and get your turbine time. Right now there is plenty 1500 hour instructor that can't find a right seat in turboprop.