Is this job worth being broke for the next decade?

[lostav8r]

Ramp wait time can change and hiring can change very quickly. in 2023 many northern operator in ontario have a sub 1 year wait time, and in 2024 it changed to almost 2 year. 2 and half years seems like a pretty optimistic estimate at my company. If a recession come soon when AI bubble burst next year...... oh well

I heard some companies laid off a lot of their rampies as well, any suggestions on what steps to take for a first job?

Well not really. If you want to get into your first flying just, it's better to get in line now rather than later. It sucks for sure but otherwise... what are you going to do? Instructing isn't any better off, you spend another 15k on getting a instructor rating, 3 year later you still have a find a job and get your turbine time. Right now there is plenty 1500 hour instructor that can't find a right seat in turboprop.

I was sort of going to sit out and hope the industry improves, who knows if in 3 years or whatever the wait is, your operator goes out of business? Right now with the trade war stuff I expect things to get worse till the 2030s?

[IJNShiroyuki]

I heard some companies laid off a lot of their rampies as well, any suggestions on what steps to take for a first job?

Well not really. If you want to get into your first flying just, it's better to get in line now rather than later. It sucks for sure but otherwise... what are you going to do? Instructing isn't any better off, you spend another 15k on getting a instructor rating, 3 year later you still have a find a job and get your turbine time. Right now there is plenty 1500 hour instructor that can't find a right seat in turboprop.

I was sort of going to sit out and hope the industry improves, who knows if in 3 years or whatever the wait is, your operator goes out of business? Right now with the trade war stuff I expect things to get worse till the 2030s?

lol goes out of business in 3 years... right
you truely have no idea on all these northern operator then.

[jpilot77]

Like others have said there’s never a perfect time. You kinda just have to jump with both feet in and swim. This industry has changed a lot from how many of us got our starts (I started my flight training in 03 and you needed 2000 hours to be right seat in a Navajo). But unless you have the drive, desire and the unwillingness to quit it’ll be tough to succeed. I remember seeing one of the new hire bios here at AC a couple years ago. The guy got all of his ratings during the first year of Covid then went to Africa to fly in the bush then came back to Canada and got on with a company here then Encore than AC, all in 4 years. During the first year of COVID it was a bleak outlook for aviation jobs but he went all in. Then when stuff switched on a couple years later he was ready. Basically you have to really decide if you want to go into aviation. From your posts you really do seem like you’re on the fence (nothing wrong with that either it is tough) but to succeed you can’t be.

[altiplano]

Not really used to Flying something with this much momentum so even if I change the power, it takes a while to notice a difference!

My last failure was in May and I had two flights recently, one of them fully hand flown but both had shaky but slightly better approaches

Stop making excuses. You're not the first guy that that hopped out of a Cessna into a twin... We've all done it.

And I don't get it... you failed IFR in May and you've gone out twice more since random practicing... why waste money?

You know exactly what the group 1 ride is, you know what he approaches are going to be, where the hold is, what the failures are... hammer it every day on PC flight sim for a week, then go out and do an ifr practise ride with your instructor, then do it again 2 days later if you need to, then go do your ride 2 days after that. You should be done in 5 or 6 days. Stop taking months between flights and stop making excuses.

If you can't get it done like that at this point then go back to the office.

[lostav8r]

Not really used to Flying something with this much momentum so even if I change the power, it takes a while to notice a difference!

My last failure was in May and I had two flights recently, one of them fully hand flown but both had shaky but slightly better approaches

Stop making excuses. You're not the first guy that that hopped out of a Cessna into a twin... We've all done it.

And I don't get it... you failed IFR in May and you've gone out twice more since random practicing... why waste money?

You know exactly what the group 1 ride is, you know what he approaches are going to be, where the hold is, what the failures are... hammer it every day on PC flight sim for a week, then go out and do an ifr practise ride with your instructor, then do it again 2 days later if you need to, then go do your ride 2 days after that. You should be done in 5 or 6 days. Stop taking months between flights and stop making excuses.

If you can't get it done like that at this point then go back to the office.

I am a dogshit pilot, is what I was getting at with the bad habits example, I booked 10 days of flying over 2 weeks, due to wx and mx I only got 1 day in those 2 weeks!

I'm fine at the procedural stuff mostly, I just need to figure out how to not be dogshit at keeping tolerances and not getting nervous when the examiner or instructor rush me, or something unexpected happens

Well not really. If you want to get into your first flying just, it's better to get in line now rather than later. It sucks for sure but otherwise... what are you going to do? Instructing isn't any better off, you spend another 15k on getting a instructor rating, 3 year later you still have a find a job and get your turbine time. Right now there is plenty 1500 hour instructor that can't find a right seat in turboprop.

I was sort of going to sit out and hope the industry improves, who knows if in 3 years or whatever the wait is, your operator goes out of business? Right now with the trade war stuff I expect things to get worse till the 2030s?

lol goes out of business in 3 years... right
you truely have no idea on all these northern operator then.

It was just am example, I've heard some have over hired and laid off a bunch of people there for 1+ years already

[BTD]

Not really used to Flying something with this much momentum so even if I change the power, it takes a while to notice a difference!

My last failure was in May and I had two flights recently, one of them fully hand flown but both had shaky but slightly better approaches

Stop making excuses. You're not the first guy that that hopped out of a Cessna into a twin... We've all done it.

And I don't get it... you failed IFR in May and you've gone out twice more since random practicing... why waste money?

You know exactly what the group 1 ride is, you know what he approaches are going to be, where the hold is, what the failures are... hammer it every day on PC flight sim for a week, then go out and do an ifr practise ride with your instructor, then do it again 2 days later if you need to, then go do your ride 2 days after that. You should be done in 5 or 6 days. Stop taking months between flights and stop making excuses.

If you can't get it done like that at this point then go back to the office.

Altiplano hit it on the head with the bold part. Especially the underlined. One of my favourite quotes:

“don’t practice until you can do it right, practice until you can’t do it wrong”

Get so good on PC sims and your practice flights that you are begging for the toughest examiner they’ve got, just so that your buddies get the easier examiners.

A bit of tough love now. Quit whining. Nobody cares and nobody is coming to help you. It’s up to you, not your instructor, not your examiner, and not us nobody’s on the internet. You are not special and neither am I. Thousands have walked the path before and thousands more have given up.

So what you have failed before, so what the place you just got hired may go bankrupt. At least you weren’t living in Nepal last week. Life sucks and then you die. You decide your path.

Best of luck whatever you choose.

[altiplano]

Quit whining. Nobody cares and nobody is coming to help you. It’s up to you, not your instructor, not your examiner, and not us nobody’s on the internet. You are not special and neither am I. Thousands have walked the path before and thousands more have given up.

So what you have failed before, so what the place you just got hired may go bankrupt. At least you weren’t living in Nepal last week. Life sucks and then you die. You decide your path.

That's it. Put up or shut up.

[pelmet]

Joe is waiting. His driveway needs shoveling(YZF doesn’t get too much snow and it is fluffy) and his lawn needs mowing. And those old beasts need to be loaded and taken care of, followed by a lot of other tasks. And he doesn’t like whiners.

But he is waiting and needs ground crew. And the reward can be amazing. What are you doing to convince him?

I stripped paint, cleaned interiors, polished exteriors, loaded baggage, dumped lavs, humped freight, pushed back everything from J31 to 747, catering, de-icing, etc, etc. and some of it extended to after I started flying turbines.

Joe is waiting.

[lostav8r]

Joe is waiting. His driveway needs shoveling(YZF doesn’t get too much snow and it is fluffy) and his lawn needs mowing. And those old beasts need to be loaded and taken care of, followed by a lot of other tasks. And he doesn’t like whiners.

But he is waiting and needs ground crew. And the reward can be amazing. What are you doing to convince him?

I stripped paint, cleaned interiors, polished exteriors, loaded baggage, dumped lavs, humped freight, pushed back everything from J31 to 747, catering, de-icing, etc, etc. and some of it extended to after I started flying turbines.

Joe is waiting.

Doesn’t mikey run the business now?

[co-joe]

I would never talk someone into a career in aviation in Canada.

[IJNShiroyuki]

Not really used to Flying something with this much momentum so even if I change the power, it takes a while to notice a difference!

My last failure was in May and I had two flights recently, one of them fully hand flown but both had shaky but slightly better approaches

Stop making excuses. You're not the first guy that that hopped out of a Cessna into a twin... We've all done it.

And I don't get it... you failed IFR in May and you've gone out twice more since random practicing... why waste money?

You know exactly what the group 1 ride is, you know what he approaches are going to be, where the hold is, what the failures are... hammer it every day on PC flight sim for a week, then go out and do an ifr practise ride with your instructor, then do it again 2 days later if you need to, then go do your ride 2 days after that. You should be done in 5 or 6 days. Stop taking months between flights and stop making excuses.

If you can't get it done like that at this point then go back to the office.

I am a dogshit pilot, is what I was getting at with the bad habits example, I booked 10 days of flying over 2 weeks, due to wx and mx I only got 1 day in those 2 weeks!

I'm fine at the procedural stuff mostly, I just need to figure out how to not be dogshit at keeping tolerances and not getting nervous when the examiner or instructor rush me, or something unexpected happens

I was sort of going to sit out and hope the industry improves, who knows if in 3 years or whatever the wait is, your operator goes out of business? Right now with the trade war stuff I expect things to get worse till the 2030s?

lol goes out of business in 3 years... right
you truely have no idea on all these northern operator then.

It was just am example, I've heard some have over hired and laid off a bunch of people there for 1+ years already

In a recession you will go into personal brankruptcy before any of these northern operators go out of business. In case you don't know what "essential air service" mean.

I hate many people's attitude that young pilot have to pay their due. But you clearly aren't prepared to put in the efford to get into this industry, Better quit now.

[‘Bob’]

In a recession you will go into personal brankruptcy before any of these northern operators go out of business. In case you don't know what "essential air service" mean.

Yeah. The NEED and the CONTRACT still exist.

But not necessarily the operator.. for a whole pile of reasons.

Another operator comes in and under bids.

Your operator has an incident or accident and has its AOC suspended.

Your operator has an incident or accident and the customer goes to another operator.

Your operator is run by a bunch of children or crooks and they strip assets and stiff creditors until they cut and run.


Go on.. apply to places like Peace Air, NT Air, Air Mikisew, Wabusk, haha! Keep trying!

[lostav8r]

Stop making excuses. You're not the first guy that that hopped out of a Cessna into a twin... We've all done it.

And I don't get it... you failed IFR in May and you've gone out twice more since random practicing... why waste money?

You know exactly what the group 1 ride is, you know what he approaches are going to be, where the hold is, what the failures are... hammer it every day on PC flight sim for a week, then go out and do an ifr practise ride with your instructor, then do it again 2 days later if you need to, then go do your ride 2 days after that. You should be done in 5 or 6 days. Stop taking months between flights and stop making excuses.

If you can't get it done like that at this point then go back to the office.

I am a dogshit pilot, is what I was getting at with the bad habits example, I booked 10 days of flying over 2 weeks, due to wx and mx I only got 1 day in those 2 weeks!

I'm fine at the procedural stuff mostly, I just need to figure out how to not be dogshit at keeping tolerances and not getting nervous when the examiner or instructor rush me, or something unexpected happens

lol goes out of business in 3 years... right
you truely have no idea on all these northern operator then.

It was just am example, I've heard some have over hired and laid off a bunch of people there for 1+ years already

In a recession you will go into personal brankruptcy before any of these northern operators go out of business. In case you don't know what "essential air service" mean.

I hate many people's attitude that young pilot have to pay their due. But you clearly aren't prepared to put in the efford to get into this industry, Better quit now.

I hate how everyone gets caught up on the example and not the concept. You may well get screwed when a good person in management leaves, maybe porter or flair or whoever go bust and suddenly we have a glut of 3000+ hour guys looking for jobs, and the low end of the industry doesn't move.

[digits_]

I hate how everyone gets caught up on the example and not the concept. You may well get screwed when a good person in management leaves, maybe porter or flair or whoever go bust and suddenly we have a glut of 3000+ hour guys looking for jobs, and the low end of the industry doesn't move.

All true, but respectfully, isn't it a bit late to ask those questions now when you're attempting to finish your multi ifr?

[lostav8r]

I hate how everyone gets caught up on the example and not the concept. You may well get screwed when a good person in management leaves, maybe porter or flair or whoever go bust and suddenly we have a glut of 3000+ hour guys looking for jobs, and the low end of the industry doesn't move.

All true, but respectfully, isn't it a bit late to ask those questions now when you're attempting to finish your multi ifr?

I learned the number 1 lesson in aviation, don't trust anyone who offers to help!

[‘Bob’]

Trust but verify.

Aviation has probably one of the largest concentrations of bullshit in the world around it outside of Hollywood, tech, finance, and politics.

Flight schools over sell their services making you believe that the pilot shortage is here and that you’re only two years away from pay dirt at Air Canada.

Pilots who are benefactors of nepotism are examples of it as their debt free training and allowances let them go and start anywhere with no concerns or even buy their build up time and then brag about how easy it was and how much money they make.

Companies will boost themselves up and talk about expansion and how you’re getting in on the ground floor as a rampie but bad business or owner/management’s opinions or prejudices will keep you on the ground until you leave.

The truth is that unless you are really lucky in this industry.. you have to be ruthlessly tenacious. And it’s not for everyone.

There is a pilot shortage. It’s ATPL with over 3000 hours and significant industry experience. The ones that the airlines are trying desperately to court (with anything except money and lifestyle). The ones that 703/704 is desperately trying to keep.

And the reason why there’s a shortage of that level of pilot is because most give up before ever getting there.

Take that with a grain of salt. It might be you. It might not be. You might walk into an amazing career. You might never go anywhere.

[Donald]

Joe is waiting. His driveway needs shoveling(YZF doesn’t get too much snow and it is fluffy) and his lawn needs mowing. And those old beasts need to be loaded and taken care of, followed by a lot of other tasks. And he doesn’t like whiners.

But he is waiting and needs ground crew. And the reward can be amazing. What are you doing to convince him?

I stripped paint, cleaned interiors, polished exteriors, loaded baggage, dumped lavs, humped freight, pushed back everything from J31 to 747, catering, de-icing, etc, etc. and some of it extended to after I started flying turbines.

Joe is waiting.

Hahahahahahahaha

[lostav8r]

Joe is waiting. His driveway needs shoveling(YZF doesn’t get too much snow and it is fluffy) and his lawn needs mowing. And those old beasts need to be loaded and taken care of, followed by a lot of other tasks. And he doesn’t like whiners.

But he is waiting and needs ground crew. And the reward can be amazing. What are you doing to convince him?

I stripped paint, cleaned interiors, polished exteriors, loaded baggage, dumped lavs, humped freight, pushed back everything from J31 to 747, catering, de-icing, etc, etc. and some of it extended to after I started flying turbines.

Joe is waiting.

Hahahahahahahaha

Can't believe how childish a man of his age acted on camera!

[pelmet]

Joe is waiting. His driveway needs shoveling(YZF doesn’t get too much snow and it is fluffy) and his lawn needs mowing. And those old beasts need to be loaded and taken care of, followed by a lot of other tasks. And he doesn’t like whiners.

But he is waiting and needs ground crew. And the reward can be amazing. What are you doing to convince him?

I stripped paint, cleaned interiors, polished exteriors, loaded baggage, dumped lavs, humped freight, pushed back everything from J31 to 747, catering, de-icing, etc, etc. and some of it extended to after I started flying turbines.

Joe is waiting.

Hahahahahahahaha

Can't believe how childish a man of his age acted on camera!

Only watched a few of the shows. Any details or links to show us what you are talking about.

By the way, you might notice that there is the occasional post on this forum from Eric Jansen. He flies Airbus A340's to the Antarctic(among other cool adventures). He says that he got his start at Buffalo and learned a lot.

[lostav8r]

Hahahahahahahaha

Can't believe how childish a man of his age acted on camera!

Only watched a few of the shows. Any details or links to show us what you are talking about.

By the way, you might notice that there is the occasional post on this forum from Eric Jansen. He flies Airbus A340's to the Antarctic(among other cool adventures). He says that he got his start at Buffalo and learned a lot.

The one where he starts yelling at the transport Canada guy for his training plan not being in compliance and saying "my taxes pay your salary"
The 2nd one I might misremember but he didn't like something and said he wanted to cancel the water bomber sale and throw away everyones hard work for a tantrum, firing people but not actually meaning it. He fired mikey 3 times lmao!

[pelmet]

Can't believe how childish a man of his age acted on camera!

Only watched a few of the shows. Any details or links to show us what you are talking about.

By the way, you might notice that there is the occasional post on this forum from Eric Jansen. He flies Airbus A340's to the Antarctic(among other cool adventures). He says that he got his start at Buffalo and learned a lot.

The one where he starts yelling at the transport Canada guy for his training plan not being in compliance and saying "my taxes pay your salary"
The 2nd one I might misremember but he didn't like something and said he wanted to cancel the water bomber sale and throw away everyones hard work for a tantrum, firing people but not actually meaning it. He fired mikey 3 times lmao!

Oh well, Eric is flying an A340 and you are flying a desk after a pay cut and dreaming of an aviation career. What are your plans, aside from whining.

[lostav8r]

Only watched a few of the shows. Any details or links to show us what you are talking about.

By the way, you might notice that there is the occasional post on this forum from Eric Jansen. He flies Airbus A340's to the Antarctic(among other cool adventures). He says that he got his start at Buffalo and learned a lot.

The one where he starts yelling at the transport Canada guy for his training plan not being in compliance and saying "my taxes pay your salary"
The 2nd one I might misremember but he didn't like something and said he wanted to cancel the water bomber sale and throw away everyones hard work for a tantrum, firing people but not actually meaning it. He fired mikey 3 times lmao!

Oh well, Eric is flying an A340 and you are flying a desk after a pay cut and dreaming of an aviation career. What are your plans, aside from whining.

I don’t see your point? Success is measured in more than what job you’re doing?


You can have your dream job to be a terrible person (Joe)

[pelmet]

The one where he starts yelling at the transport Canada guy for his training plan not being in compliance and saying "my taxes pay your salary"
The 2nd one I might misremember but he didn't like something and said he wanted to cancel the water bomber sale and throw away everyones hard work for a tantrum, firing people but not actually meaning it. He fired mikey 3 times lmao!

Oh well, Eric is flying an A340 and you are flying a desk after a pay cut and dreaming of an aviation career. What are your plans, aside from whining.

I don’t see your point? Success is measured in more than what job you’re doing?


You can have your dream job to be a terrible person (Joe)

The point is.....Joe may be a character but he offered a great opportunity to someone willing to do the job(instead of complaining about it) and now does exactly what you likely dream of doing. So, go get the dock job(or instructor) if you want to move ahead. I worked two aviation non-flying jobs(maintenance helper and baggage handler) before getting that first flying job. It shows a commitment to aviation compared to those who just want to try it for a while.

The nice thing about an instructor job is that you may be able to do a flexible schedule and keep your other job. And if the commercial route doesn't work, you will have more flying experience and perhaps be a fairly experienced pilot if you buy or rent an aircraft in the future.

[lostav8r]

Oh well, Eric is flying an A340 and you are flying a desk after a pay cut and dreaming of an aviation career. What are your plans, aside from whining.

I don’t see your point? Success is measured in more than what job you’re doing?


You can have your dream job to be a terrible person (Joe)

The point is.....Joe may be a character but he offered a great opportunity to someone willing to do the job(instead of complaining about it) and now does exactly what you likely dream of doing. So, go get the dock job(or instructor) if you want to move ahead. I worked two aviation non-flying jobs(maintenance helper and baggage handler) before getting that first flying job. It shows a commitment to aviation compared to those who just want to try it for a while.

The nice thing about an instructor job is that you may be able to do a flexible schedule and keep your other job. And if the commercial route doesn't work, you will have more flying experience and perhaps be a fairly experienced pilot if you buy or rent an aircraft in the future.

Thanks Pelmet, you'd be surprised how picky even in the good times schools were for instructors. Unless you were a Class 1 there was no part time sadly.

[pelmet]

I don’t see your point? Success is measured in more than what job you’re doing?


You can have your dream job to be a terrible person (Joe)

The point is.....Joe may be a character but he offered a great opportunity to someone willing to do the job(instead of complaining about it) and now does exactly what you likely dream of doing. So, go get the dock job(or instructor) if you want to move ahead. I worked two aviation non-flying jobs(maintenance helper and baggage handler) before getting that first flying job. It shows a commitment to aviation compared to those who just want to try it for a while.

The nice thing about an instructor job is that you may be able to do a flexible schedule and keep your other job. And if the commercial route doesn't work, you will have more flying experience and perhaps be a fairly experienced pilot if you buy or rent an aircraft in the future.

Thanks Pelmet, you'd be surprised how picky even in the good times schools were for instructors. Unless you were a Class 1 there was no part time sadly.

My recommendation for you is that you give up on any plans for an aviation career. Save your money.