WJ Offer

[C560guy]

Hello folks,

I am considering WestJet but am genuinely curious/concerned about the upgrade times. I have read previous threads and am not looking for people to bash in the comments but am wondering if anyone has an idea of what the upgrade times are looking like and if they are forecasted to continue increasing? I have interviewed with AC as well and am trying to decide if a 16 yr upgrade and socialized bidding outweighs a quicker upgrade and seniority based schedule. Any constructive input and advice is sincerely appreciated.

[nohojob]

At this time, it is impossible to know what upgrade time will be in 5 years. Also, the bidding system might change.
However, for a young pilot, AC seems to me a more stable career.

[5degrees]

WJ is a solid choice if you really want to live in Alberta or BC. Yes upgrade times are not coming down from 10+ years anytime soon. AC is also no longer going to be upgrading at 2 years in at this point. You have 1000s of people ahead of you that got hired in the last decade.
I don't think socialized bidding is going away at WJ.

[ant_321]

Unless living in YYC is the number 1 priority don’t even consider WestJet before taking a crack at AC. Upgrade times are as long as people have posted and likely will be for quite a while unless there is some major change. Socialized bidding just means everyone does crappy flying. It ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. It’s nice to be able to get certain days off if you need them but you’ll pay for it in other ways.

[Blackdog0301]

Unless living in YYC is the number 1 priority don’t even consider WestJet before taking a crack at AC. Upgrade times are as long as people have posted and likely will be for quite a while unless there is some major change. Socialized bidding just means everyone does crappy flying. It ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. It’s nice to be able to get certain days off if you need them but you’ll pay for it in other ways.

If that's your experience with socialized bidding, you're doing it wrong.

[QKZXKV]

Unless living in YYC is the number 1 priority don’t even consider WestJet before taking a crack at AC. Upgrade times are as long as people have posted and likely will be for quite a while unless there is some major change. Socialized bidding just means everyone does crappy flying. It ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. It’s nice to be able to get certain days off if you need them but you’ll pay for it in other ways.

If that's your experience with socialized bidding, you're doing it wrong.

I believe this account complaining about bidding is an angry Sunwing person.

[Blackdog0301]

Unless living in YYC is the number 1 priority don’t even consider WestJet before taking a crack at AC. Upgrade times are as long as people have posted and likely will be for quite a while unless there is some major change. Socialized bidding just means everyone does crappy flying. It ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. It’s nice to be able to get certain days off if you need them but you’ll pay for it in other ways.

If that's your experience with socialized bidding, you're doing it wrong.

I believe this account complaining about bidding is an angry Sunwing person.

That would make so much more sense. About 50% of the Sunwing people I fly with spend the majority of the pairing complaining and whining about this and that. Everytime I see a 43xxx employee number in my pairing, i gotta pump myself up for what's to come. Some of them are terrific people who I'd spend 5 days with again any time! Others.....

[safetyfirst123]

That would make so much more sense. About 50% of the Sunwing people I fly with spend the majority of the pairing complaining and whining about this and that. Everytime I see a 43xxx employee number in my pairing, i gotta pump myself up for what's to come. Some of them are terrific people who I'd spend 5 days with again any time! Others.....

There are terrific people from both Westjet and Sunwing, and my experience has been overwhelmingly positive with the pilot group on the line. It's interesting however that different perspectives aren't welcomed on this board or the Telegram chat from people who've experienced more than just Westjet and previous regional outfits.

[Hysteria]

Unless living in YYC is the number 1 priority don’t even consider WestJet before taking a crack at AC. Upgrade times are as long as people have posted and likely will be for quite a while unless there is some major change. Socialized bidding just means everyone does crappy flying. It ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. It’s nice to be able to get certain days off if you need them but you’ll pay for it in other ways.

If that's your experience with socialized bidding, you're doing it wrong.

I believe this account complaining about bidding is an angry Sunwing person.

If not bidding for days off, don’t you get something like +70% of the trips you bid for?

[nohojob]

I like the socialize bidding system. Of course someone very senior won't like it that much since he will be on the same foot than a junior guy.
However what really sucks is the rsv system that put the last 20% on a all reserve schedule.
Hopefully that is going to change on next contract.

I am allowed to complain since I am a 42XXX
pilot, not quite a 43XXX.

[Canadaflyer46]

The socialized bidding can give you awesome months, or months where you get nothing you ask for. The trouble with the system is their is zero accountability. ‘It is what it is’ ‘it’s what the solver decided you get’. There is also a general acceptance that every 3 months you have to get screwed…Why? What’s the issue with shooting for every month being great. My guess is if WJ was willing to invest in better software we’d see an improvement.
Next year we switch from Flica to Jeppesen, but I believe we’re sticking with Wings for the bidding still which feels like a 40 year old platform. Hopefully we’ll see improvements.
Thankfully scheduling and reserve rules are top ticket items for CA3.

[QKZXKV]

I like the socialize bidding system. Of course someone very senior won't like it that much since he will be on the same foot than a junior guy.
However what really sucks is the rsv system that put the last 20% on a all reserve schedule.
Hopefully that is going to change on next contract.

I am allowed to complain since I am a 42XXX
pilot, not quite a 43XXX.

The same senior people benefitted from that bidding system when they were junior... there's a group of selfish people near the top of that list. Allegedly 2 are ex-reps who can't cone to terms that the pilot group's opinion differs from theirs.

[QKZXKV]

If that's your experience with socialized bidding, you're doing it wrong.

I believe this account complaining about bidding is an angry Sunwing person.

That would make so much more sense. About 50% of the Sunwing people I fly with spend the majority of the pairing complaining and whining about this and that. Everytime I see a 43xxx employee number in my pairing, i gotta pump myself up for what's to come. Some of them are terrific people who I'd spend 5 days with again any time! Others.....

Curious if it's an east vs west kind of thing like elsewhere? In my workplace, western based crews seemed more fun to be around and wherever I'd go back out east the crews out therw were angry and hostile.

[ant_321]

Unless living in YYC is the number 1 priority don’t even consider WestJet before taking a crack at AC. Upgrade times are as long as people have posted and likely will be for quite a while unless there is some major change. Socialized bidding just means everyone does crappy flying. It ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. It’s nice to be able to get certain days off if you need them but you’ll pay for it in other ways.

If that's your experience with socialized bidding, you're doing it wrong.

There is plenty of crappy flying at WestJet. Socialized bidding means everyone has to do some of it. If you aren’t doing any maybe you’ve found a way to hack the system. I get my days off. But to pay for that I work max days and do plenty of shitty flying.

[ant_321]

Unless living in YYC is the number 1 priority don’t even consider WestJet before taking a crack at AC. Upgrade times are as long as people have posted and likely will be for quite a while unless there is some major change. Socialized bidding just means everyone does crappy flying. It ain’t all it’s cracked up to be. It’s nice to be able to get certain days off if you need them but you’ll pay for it in other ways.

If that's your experience with socialized bidding, you're doing it wrong.

I believe this account complaining about bidding is an angry Sunwing person.

I’m not angry. What about my post exactly do you disagree with? I believe what I posted to be factual.

[Bede]

The trouble with the system is their is zero accountability. ‘It is what it is’ ‘it’s what the solver decided you get’.

That's the case with EVERY scheduling system outside of hand built schedules. Those have their own issues though.

There is also a general acceptance that every 3 months you have to get screwed…Why? What’s the issue with shooting for every month being great.

Not true. Satisfaction does average out over 3 months to about 85%. In my 16 years at WestJet, I've got two terrible schedules. The rest vary between good and excellent.

My guess is if WJ was willing to invest in better software we’d see an improvement.
Next year we switch from Flica to Jeppesen, but I believe we’re sticking with Wings for the bidding still which feels like a 40 year old platform. Hopefully we’ll see improvements.

Not true. The user interface may be different but the underlying algorithm will be the same. You can Google Danzig's simplex algorithm. That's the algorithm that the solver uses.

This is a good intro to optimization. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS-CGkiPetQ. Obviously maps are different than schedules, but both are linear programming optimization problems. Here's an analogy: mathematically, airline schedules are like maps, except instead of going to one place, there's thousands of vehicles, going to different places, and they can't take the same route, and only some of the vehicles can go on certain roads, and some drivers need certain qualifications to go on certain roads, and a bunch of the roads are closed, at different times of the day.

[Hysteria]

Does it depend which base you have? Can you hold single day pairings most months if you so chose?

[Bede]

Does it depend which base you have? Can you hold single day pairings most months if you so chose?

I used to do only single days out of YYZ when I was an FO. I haven't bid single days in years, but I imagine you can get a good chunk of 1 day pairings if that's your thing.

[nohojob]

There are a lot of day turns out of yul in Winter and Summer. Less during Spring and Fall.
So, yes you can get a lot of these. Some of my months are 100% day turns. I don't know about the other bases.
The socialize bidding system is not perfect but it beats the seniority one in term of fairness.
What really needs to be adressed is the rsv system.
It is the worse one I've ever seen in my career.

[Gicash09]

Hello folks,

I am considering WestJet but am genuinely curious/concerned about the upgrade times. I have read previous threads and am not looking for people to bash in the comments but am wondering if anyone has an idea of what the upgrade times are looking like and if they are forecasted to continue increasing? I have interviewed with AC as well and am trying to decide if a 16 yr upgrade and socialized bidding outweighs a quicker upgrade and seniority based schedule. Any constructive input and advice is sincerely appreciated.

As a fourth-year FO at WestJet who’s still on reserve, my advice would be to go to AC if you get the offer. Friends hired at AC after I started at WestJet are already captains, so I wouldn’t base your decision on the assumption that WJA means a 16-year upgrade or that AC necessarily offers a faster path. Fleet, base and timing all matter.

From what I’ve seen in YUL since the merger, WestJet has lost ground, with TS and AC picking up sun flying while we’ve struggled to meet demand with the aircraft and pilots available. In my view, management decisions have contributed to that, and it’s made me less confident in the long-term career outlook here.

A social based schedule sounds good, but four years in, I’m still waiting to see much benefit while on reserve. Nobody can guarantee future upgrades at either airline, but based on my experience and what I’ve seen among friends at AC, I wouldn’t recommend joining WestJet right now. If I had the choice today, I’d take AC and not look back.

[Me262]

Hello folks,

I am considering WestJet but am genuinely curious/concerned about the upgrade times. I have read previous threads and am not looking for people to bash in the comments but am wondering if anyone has an idea of what the upgrade times are looking like and if they are forecasted to continue increasing? I have interviewed with AC as well and am trying to decide if a 16 yr upgrade and socialized bidding outweighs a quicker upgrade and seniority based schedule. Any constructive input and advice is sincerely appreciated.

As a fourth-year FO at WestJet who’s still on reserve, my advice would be to go to AC if you get the offer. Friends hired at AC after I started at WestJet are already captains, so I wouldn’t base your decision on the assumption that WJA means a 16-year upgrade or that AC necessarily offers a faster path. Fleet, base and timing all matter.

From what I’ve seen in YUL since the merger, WestJet has lost ground, with TS and AC picking up sun flying while we’ve struggled to meet demand with the aircraft and pilots available. In my view, management decisions have contributed to that, and it’s made me less confident in the long-term career outlook here.

A social based schedule sounds good, but four years in, I’m still waiting to see much benefit while on reserve. Nobody can guarantee future upgrades at either airline, but based on my experience and what I’ve seen among friends at AC, I wouldn’t recommend joining WestJet right now. If I had the choice today, I’d take AC and not look back.

What stops you from just applying to AC?

[Gicash09]

Hello folks,

I am considering WestJet but am genuinely curious/concerned about the upgrade times. I have read previous threads and am not looking for people to bash in the comments but am wondering if anyone has an idea of what the upgrade times are looking like and if they are forecasted to continue increasing? I have interviewed with AC as well and am trying to decide if a 16 yr upgrade and socialized bidding outweighs a quicker upgrade and seniority based schedule. Any constructive input and advice is sincerely appreciated.

As a fourth-year FO at WestJet who’s still on reserve, my advice would be to go to AC if you get the offer. Friends hired at AC after I started at WestJet are already captains, so I wouldn’t base your decision on the assumption that WJA means a 16-year upgrade or that AC necessarily offers a faster path. Fleet, base and timing all matter.

From what I’ve seen in YUL since the merger, WestJet has lost ground, with TS and AC picking up sun flying while we’ve struggled to meet demand with the aircraft and pilots available. In my view, management decisions have contributed to that, and it’s made me less confident in the long-term career outlook here.

A social based schedule sounds good, but four years in, I’m still waiting to see much benefit while on reserve. Nobody can guarantee future upgrades at either airline, but based on my experience and what I’ve seen among friends at AC, I wouldn’t recommend joining WestJet right now. If I had the choice today, I’d take AC and not look back.

What stops you from just applying to AC?

Nothing. You don’t have to stay at an airline to have an opinion on it, and you don’t have to leave before you’re allowed to criticize it. He asked for firsthand experience, so I gave him mine. Four years on reserve while friends hired later at AC are already captains is useful information. “Just apply to AC” adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

[cdnavater]

As a fourth-year FO at WestJet who’s still on reserve, my advice would be to go to AC if you get the offer. Friends hired at AC after I started at WestJet are already captains, so I wouldn’t base your decision on the assumption that WJA means a 16-year upgrade or that AC necessarily offers a faster path. Fleet, base and timing all matter.

From what I’ve seen in YUL since the merger, WestJet has lost ground, with TS and AC picking up sun flying while we’ve struggled to meet demand with the aircraft and pilots available. In my view, management decisions have contributed to that, and it’s made me less confident in the long-term career outlook here.

A social based schedule sounds good, but four years in, I’m still waiting to see much benefit while on reserve. Nobody can guarantee future upgrades at either airline, but based on my experience and what I’ve seen among friends at AC, I wouldn’t recommend joining WestJet right now. If I had the choice today, I’d take AC and not look back.

What stops you from just applying to AC?

Nothing. You don’t have to stay at an airline to have an opinion on it, and you don’t have to leave before you’re allowed to criticize it. He asked for firsthand experience, so I gave him mine. Four years on reserve while friends hired later at AC are already captains is useful information. “Just apply to AC” adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

I believe the poster was asking you personally what is stopping you from applying to AC.

[Me262]

As a fourth-year FO at WestJet who’s still on reserve, my advice would be to go to AC if you get the offer. Friends hired at AC after I started at WestJet are already captains, so I wouldn’t base your decision on the assumption that WJA means a 16-year upgrade or that AC necessarily offers a faster path. Fleet, base and timing all matter.

From what I’ve seen in YUL since the merger, WestJet has lost ground, with TS and AC picking up sun flying while we’ve struggled to meet demand with the aircraft and pilots available. In my view, management decisions have contributed to that, and it’s made me less confident in the long-term career outlook here.

A social based schedule sounds good, but four years in, I’m still waiting to see much benefit while on reserve. Nobody can guarantee future upgrades at either airline, but based on my experience and what I’ve seen among friends at AC, I wouldn’t recommend joining WestJet right now. If I had the choice today, I’d take AC and not look back.

What stops you from just applying to AC?

Nothing. You don’t have to stay at an airline to have an opinion on it, and you don’t have to leave before you’re allowed to criticize it. He asked for firsthand experience, so I gave him mine. Four years on reserve while friends hired later at AC are already captains is useful information. “Just apply to AC” adds absolutely nothing to the discussion.

You said "if I had the choice today, I'd take AC". So, you have the choice today. Why don't you apply? It was just a simple question, and you took it as an attack since you say it adds nothing to the discussion. Unless 4 years seniority at WJ weighs more than new hire at AC today.

[rudder]

Unless 4 years seniority at WJ weighs more than new hire at AC today.

Other than the next four years of pay, I don’t think anyone with four years of tenure is better off than being a new hire at AC. Just the access to year 5 WB pay at AC puts you way ahead.

Break even is probably 6-7 years in the future. After that, you will be further ahead for the rest of your career.