AC Mainline w/o degree
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Im fairly new to flying, still in trying to find how I want to continue my flight training. I would love to go to uni/ college, but I cant afford that and flight trg. I have been reading about the new ICPP program offered. I was wondering what people think of this more rigorous program
You've got it centrestored -PROFESSIONAL
I think there is a difference between having a job as a pilot and having a professional career as a pilot. All of us can think of someone we know that always went that little bit further, tried a little harder or studied that much more. That is the person who will make their job into a professional career. If you really want something, you are going to do everything you can to get it.
Maybe that means actually studying at college instead of boozing it. Maybe that means saying bye to mommy and taking a job in BFN that will get you some experience and meet some new people in the industry. Maybe it means ditching your wife or girlfriend for a "better job". Maybe it means dropping another $40 G for a degree. I don't know, you decide what is right for you. What do you want? How far will you go to get it? Is it really worth it?
NO - I don't have a degree
NO - I'm not saying if you don't have a degree you are not professional
NO - I don't think having a degree will make you a better pilot
All I'm saying is you are going to need something other than blue cloud paper to make your resume stand out of from 5000 others. Having spent x years in the business or having y hrs may make you qualified, but it does not ENTITLE you to anything.
If a company wants to set a standard, so be it. It's their money, their choice. I'm sure AC and others consider the relevance of a deg in "Basketweaving" vs. Engineering or Math.
In the end, life's a b*tch and sometimes the nice guy finishes last. Maybe that'll be me. Maybe I'll get a call. We'll see I guess.
On a side note --> I am constantly amazed at how many people in this industry want to be treated like a professional, yet don't act like one.
I think there is a difference between having a job as a pilot and having a professional career as a pilot. All of us can think of someone we know that always went that little bit further, tried a little harder or studied that much more. That is the person who will make their job into a professional career. If you really want something, you are going to do everything you can to get it.
Maybe that means actually studying at college instead of boozing it. Maybe that means saying bye to mommy and taking a job in BFN that will get you some experience and meet some new people in the industry. Maybe it means ditching your wife or girlfriend for a "better job". Maybe it means dropping another $40 G for a degree. I don't know, you decide what is right for you. What do you want? How far will you go to get it? Is it really worth it?
NO - I don't have a degree
NO - I'm not saying if you don't have a degree you are not professional
NO - I don't think having a degree will make you a better pilot
All I'm saying is you are going to need something other than blue cloud paper to make your resume stand out of from 5000 others. Having spent x years in the business or having y hrs may make you qualified, but it does not ENTITLE you to anything.
If a company wants to set a standard, so be it. It's their money, their choice. I'm sure AC and others consider the relevance of a deg in "Basketweaving" vs. Engineering or Math.
In the end, life's a b*tch and sometimes the nice guy finishes last. Maybe that'll be me. Maybe I'll get a call. We'll see I guess.
On a side note --> I am constantly amazed at how many people in this industry want to be treated like a professional, yet don't act like one.
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Speed Indeed
- Rank 1
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- Joined: Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:40 pm
Brint,
Your post is excellent. What people don't understand is that it's not their god given right to work for Air Canada or any company for that matter if they have the hours and experience. Life isn't fair for crying out loud, I would like to work for Emirates, but don't have a 1000hrs jet, wow is that unfair? Like you said, Air Canada can do whatever they want with regards to hiring requirements. They can't look at every single applicants story and go from there, this is why they have minimum requirements and then additional ones, to simplify the process and set a standard. Most industries are like this.
Confuzed, you said
"I simply think to discount someone because they don't have it is a little unfair....On a side note though, people are saying that every industry looks for higher education. Don't be too quick to be sure of yourself on that. My dad used to be in charge of hiring where he is, and he would rather hire the people that had experience in the field. According to him, they take less time to train, amongst other things. I think a combination of both is essential, however don't count someone out at least give them a chance."
I do see your point, however, I am not saying EVERY industry. There are jobs out there that are based strictly on experience, and maybe that is an industry that your dad worked in. If you were to look at many professional job adds many of them state, University Degree required. Unfair? Maybe, but thats life. Like I said earlier, their are many jobs that I would like, but don't have the requirements.
So your saying that someone who parties and boozes it up and gets a degree didn't earn it eh. If you only knew how much work actually goes into an education at the university level you would take that comment back, regardless of what kind of degree it is.
Just to remind you it takes 4 years to get one, that's 4 years of studying essay writing, writing 5 exams on the same week. Working during the summer to pay for the next year. If you booze it up then it makes it harder, how on earth does that mean you didn't deserve it?
I think you missed the point in your post regarding the importance o education. It's not just what you rememeber, its about what you learned outside of the textbooks and how to think, speak and analyze things. Its not about what year the US Civil War was, its about understanding facts and learning how to learn.
I know it's frustrating not to have what companies look for, I have been there many times. It also isn't written in stone that you have to have a degree at AC.
Your post is excellent. What people don't understand is that it's not their god given right to work for Air Canada or any company for that matter if they have the hours and experience. Life isn't fair for crying out loud, I would like to work for Emirates, but don't have a 1000hrs jet, wow is that unfair? Like you said, Air Canada can do whatever they want with regards to hiring requirements. They can't look at every single applicants story and go from there, this is why they have minimum requirements and then additional ones, to simplify the process and set a standard. Most industries are like this.
Confuzed, you said
"I simply think to discount someone because they don't have it is a little unfair....On a side note though, people are saying that every industry looks for higher education. Don't be too quick to be sure of yourself on that. My dad used to be in charge of hiring where he is, and he would rather hire the people that had experience in the field. According to him, they take less time to train, amongst other things. I think a combination of both is essential, however don't count someone out at least give them a chance."
I do see your point, however, I am not saying EVERY industry. There are jobs out there that are based strictly on experience, and maybe that is an industry that your dad worked in. If you were to look at many professional job adds many of them state, University Degree required. Unfair? Maybe, but thats life. Like I said earlier, their are many jobs that I would like, but don't have the requirements.
So your saying that someone who parties and boozes it up and gets a degree didn't earn it eh. If you only knew how much work actually goes into an education at the university level you would take that comment back, regardless of what kind of degree it is.
Just to remind you it takes 4 years to get one, that's 4 years of studying essay writing, writing 5 exams on the same week. Working during the summer to pay for the next year. If you booze it up then it makes it harder, how on earth does that mean you didn't deserve it?
I think you missed the point in your post regarding the importance o education. It's not just what you rememeber, its about what you learned outside of the textbooks and how to think, speak and analyze things. Its not about what year the US Civil War was, its about understanding facts and learning how to learn.
I know it's frustrating not to have what companies look for, I have been there many times. It also isn't written in stone that you have to have a degree at AC.
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centerstored
- Rank 4
- Posts: 237
- Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2004 4:16 pm
speed,
I totally agree. The only people bitching about degrees are the ones without. Has anyone looked south of the border recently? Try working for a major in the States without a Uni Degree. People are hacking different types of degrees. The truth is that they all require 4 years of demanding work, classes, exams, papers, labs...etc. Let's put it this way. Studying for one first year University level science exam is much harder than all of TC's exams put together. That may sound abit harsh and it's not really the point I'm trying to make though. AC must narrow the field down somehow and this is obviously the most sensible way to do it. Everyone in the running for these jobs has relatively equal experience. Bilingualism and a University Degree are two things that SHOULD make someone standout. A uni degree doesn't make someone any better, it's just that the experience teaches you how to learn, manage your time, prepare for evaluations, act responsibly, work with others, take direction and handle stress.
I totally agree. The only people bitching about degrees are the ones without. Has anyone looked south of the border recently? Try working for a major in the States without a Uni Degree. People are hacking different types of degrees. The truth is that they all require 4 years of demanding work, classes, exams, papers, labs...etc. Let's put it this way. Studying for one first year University level science exam is much harder than all of TC's exams put together. That may sound abit harsh and it's not really the point I'm trying to make though. AC must narrow the field down somehow and this is obviously the most sensible way to do it. Everyone in the running for these jobs has relatively equal experience. Bilingualism and a University Degree are two things that SHOULD make someone standout. A uni degree doesn't make someone any better, it's just that the experience teaches you how to learn, manage your time, prepare for evaluations, act responsibly, work with others, take direction and handle stress.
Blah, blah blah...
If you want a Quick degree, some Indian was running a "school" out in Toronto, he's shutting down because some african nation cancelled his contract...
If you can go find the schools name, put it on your resume, he's closing soon, they'll never be able to "verify" if you attended, and it's win win.. =)
Or a BA from Habeeb's school of business in India works well too. =)
Just put on your Resume "BA" don't go into details, or go for the upgrade program, cash out the extra 500 and you can put Dr. Capt. John Smith..
Or would you be Capt. Dr. John Smith C b4 D??
And you can by knighthood from England..
so you could be
Capt. Dr. Sir John Smith.. That would surely kick you up a notch!
If you want a Quick degree, some Indian was running a "school" out in Toronto, he's shutting down because some african nation cancelled his contract...
If you can go find the schools name, put it on your resume, he's closing soon, they'll never be able to "verify" if you attended, and it's win win.. =)
Or a BA from Habeeb's school of business in India works well too. =)
Just put on your Resume "BA" don't go into details, or go for the upgrade program, cash out the extra 500 and you can put Dr. Capt. John Smith..
Or would you be Capt. Dr. John Smith C b4 D??
And you can by knighthood from England..
so you could be
Capt. Dr. Sir John Smith.. That would surely kick you up a notch!
I fully understand where you're coming from speed, as like I stated before the interest is there for my situation just not the funds (yet). C'est la vie, I'll have to stay where I am for now. I understand that people are required to stick out and these are the stated requirements, I'm just saying it's a little unfortunate that those without a degree aren't given an opportunity. Again, c'est la vie it happens. When faced with the situation of being able to afford one or the other, the one that will get you into your industry of choice obviously wins.Speed Indeed wrote:Confuzed, you said
"I simply think to discount someone because they don't have it is a little unfair....On a side note though, people are saying that every industry looks for higher education. Don't be too quick to be sure of yourself on that. My dad used to be in charge of hiring where he is, and he would rather hire the people that had experience in the field. According to him, they take less time to train, amongst other things. I think a combination of both is essential, however don't count someone out at least give them a chance."
I do see your point, however, I am not saying EVERY industry. There are jobs out there that are based strictly on experience, and maybe that is an industry that your dad worked in. If you were to look at many professional job adds many of them state, University Degree required. Unfair? Maybe, but thats life. Like I said earlier, their are many jobs that I would like, but don't have the requirements.
So your saying that someone who parties and boozes it up and gets a degree didn't earn it eh. If you only knew how much work actually goes into an education at the university level you would take that comment back, regardless of what kind of degree it is.
Just to remind you it takes 4 years to get one, that's 4 years of studying essay writing, writing 5 exams on the same week. Working during the summer to pay for the next year. If you booze it up then it makes it harder, how on earth does that mean you didn't deserve it?
I think you missed the point in your post regarding the importance o education. It's not just what you rememeber, its about what you learned outside of the textbooks and how to think, speak and analyze things. Its not about what year the US Civil War was, its about understanding facts and learning how to learn.
I know it's frustrating not to have what companies look for, I have been there many times. It also isn't written in stone that you have to have a degree at AC.
Now, when it comes to the comments made how hard these certain individuals had to work. Not being around this situation, I would be careful to comment on it if I were you. You don't know what was involved and what these people did or did not do. I am not exagerating on this topic, I just said that I had been witness to it. However, like I said for those who did work their ass off I respect that. Now, after spending X amount of dollars on said degree I would think that someone would be able to maintain some core knowledge of their major. If not, then why were you there? However , I am not going to beat that topic anymore then it already has been.
Centerstored, believe me I'm not bitching about my situation. Given the opportunity, I'd be all over getting a degree like a fat kid on a smartie. If it were different and I had a degree though, believe me I wouldn't be talking down upon someone who didn't. I understand people's financial situations and would not mock them. I simply think that the system isn't perfect, as I'm sure tonnes of good drivers could potentially be overlooked. It's a similar thing that you saw at Westjet when they required the internal references. How many good drivers couldn't get in there because they didn't know anyone?
Overall, what would I know though? It's just a thought from someone on the other side of the spectrum. However, even if I did have a degree I would have the same opinion. On the topic though, has anyone in here gone through the Embry Riddle program?? If so, what kind of cost was involved? I wouldn't mind doing something aviation related, but have also thought about a degree in Geology (just don't know where it's offered through long distance education).
You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
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av8tor_assrope
- Rank 6
- Posts: 439
- Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2004 6:34 pm
“teaches you how to learn”
“manage your time”
“prepare for evaluations”
“act responsibly”
“work with others”
“take direction and handle stress”
Some very good points brought forward by all. But quit the BULLSHIT. Now days with distance ed, part-time studies and new basket blowing courses, it takes enough discipline to earn a degree as it does to read your favourite monthly penthouse mag while masturbating in your father’s woodshed. I’ll footnote Van Wilder on that one. I’m kind of biased, but the only courses I respected during my diminutive era at uni were engineering and research courses. These courses really taught you how to “learn how to learn” and “problem solve”
If the almighty powers want a degree due to the reasons as quoted at the top, they should make the degree requirement job specific (ie. any science , aeronautics, engineering ect) For example how many doctors do you know of that hold a Fine Arts degree from York Uni in Theatre and Visual Arts? Probably not many…..and if you do, you know why you’ve been passing your medical.
But hey…Canadian aviation is a wave and all we’re doing is riding it. Why else would some poor smuck put himself 60 g’s in debt (30 flying, 30 uni) just to start off by being treated like shit or making shit. But if God himself….AC wants that coveted piece of paper…..they’ll get it. If I don’t have it, the guy behind me will and tooooooooo the back of the line I go.
Cheers
“manage your time”
“prepare for evaluations”
“act responsibly”
“work with others”
“take direction and handle stress”
Some very good points brought forward by all. But quit the BULLSHIT. Now days with distance ed, part-time studies and new basket blowing courses, it takes enough discipline to earn a degree as it does to read your favourite monthly penthouse mag while masturbating in your father’s woodshed. I’ll footnote Van Wilder on that one. I’m kind of biased, but the only courses I respected during my diminutive era at uni were engineering and research courses. These courses really taught you how to “learn how to learn” and “problem solve”
If the almighty powers want a degree due to the reasons as quoted at the top, they should make the degree requirement job specific (ie. any science , aeronautics, engineering ect) For example how many doctors do you know of that hold a Fine Arts degree from York Uni in Theatre and Visual Arts? Probably not many…..and if you do, you know why you’ve been passing your medical.
But hey…Canadian aviation is a wave and all we’re doing is riding it. Why else would some poor smuck put himself 60 g’s in debt (30 flying, 30 uni) just to start off by being treated like shit or making shit. But if God himself….AC wants that coveted piece of paper…..they’ll get it. If I don’t have it, the guy behind me will and tooooooooo the back of the line I go.
Cheers
I want to die like my grandfather did, peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming in terror like his passengers...
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canpilot
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[quote="confuzed"]I have also witnessed some negative things when it comes to peoples "degrees". People who do nothing but party hard, slack off, and cram at the last minute. They somehow manage to do ok, but ask them anything related to their "major" 6 months after they're done and they look at you like you're from Mars. However, it's this individual that would get hired before I would because they have this "degree".
I was under the impression that the majors looked at grades. Is this true?
I was under the impression that the majors looked at grades. Is this true?
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Jaques Strappe
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unregistered
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monkeyspankmasterflex
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centerstored
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monkeyspankmasterflex
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I don't think you can bank on those sort of figures unless you're hired young enough. I have no idea what the demographics are amongst the pilots already working for Air Canada, but if you're hired at the tail end of the supposed 600 and you're past your twenties, I'm not so sure you're guaranteed captaincy before you retire (3000 pilots, assume most senior 1500 are captains and you've given 600 people a head start). Hopefully I'm just being pessimistic.King Air Guy wrote:...but ends up near 200K by retirement. Not bad.
Cheers.
My comment wasn't meant to be a jab at Air Canada (my dream job), I was just pointing out that after you've paid your dues to make it to the big leagues, there are more dues to be paid because supply>demand.
Degree or no degree, obviously something needs to make you stand out.
http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airl ... 030796.htmmonkeyspankmasterflex wrote:but if you're hired at the tail end of the supposed 600 and you're past your twenties, I'm not so sure you're guaranteed captaincy before you retire (3000 pilots, assume most senior 1500 are captains and you've given 600 people a head start).King Air Guy wrote:...but ends up near 200K by retirement. Not bad.
Cheers.
150/hr as an FO on the trip 7 ain't bad either 70$ less compared to the Capt, I'm sure AC has guys that PASS up promotion to Capt because being an FO or RP fits their lifestyle. And if you do land in the last end of the wave, take your type rating and go work for someone in Asia or the Middle east..
That's exactly why there is a 2-yr flat salary. You 'pay' for your type rating through a reduced salary. After that if you leave I'm sure they don't really give a $&!# anyway. Begs the question though, where the heck are you gonna 'bail' to overseas with an EMJ type rating?It will also be interesting to see what the new guys with 2X years of age and 1000 hours do with their new type ratings, bail overseas???....
